Drive looping back spin balls.

[gmiller2233]

Drive looping back spin balls.

I was looking at some pro footage to answer this question but I'm finding a disconnect between what I'm seeing when watch pro players and what I see when I play that happens in several ways actually. they can make everything look easy and at such a high execution lel. So I thought I would take my question here among still much better players but amount some people that might be able to shed some light to a serious but still recreational player.

I'm wondering how common is it to execute what i would consider a loop drive or kill shot not sure what to call it when attacking backspin balls? It's a shot where you definitely hear the wood.

I have been playing with a friend who is a much better player than me for the last year and a half about one or twice a week. He reached a high lel 1900's playing tournaments and league play in Atlanta before quitting the game for 10 yeas. he starting back playing recreationally after moving here. He may not be playing at all that lel now but he is very quick, Athletic and hits with his legs and body just nice form and ball quality. And not a big surprise to here but Attacking, hitting back spin seems to be a strong spot. the thing I'm noticing when he attacks under spin much of the time 50% maybe it's not really a loop either. I mean he can loop it and He actually does very his shots against backspin. It looks like three different results one is a slow very spiny loop, an aggressive brush loop (what I would normally consider an aggressive attack) but much of he time I'm hearing the smack not the brush sound which looks like a third shot. I'm not really sure I would need to watch him play a match while not trying to defend it but I think his form looks similar to his normal shot but maybe more forward blade more vertical but closing on the side the ball. the ball has some hook side movement to it and its fast. it's a shot that's looking to end the point. I'm wondering how common this (I'm calling it loop drive) type shot, off back spin is at high Lel of play? And it would be interested to know how manny of you use it. It looks different from shots to what I'm I custom to seeing off back spin balls but I'm not sure if it's just me not seeing the lel of play.










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[ttmonster]

the timing of the snap and the point of the ball flight where you impact is very critical for the shot you described. Hence, its easier to do it in practice when you get a consistent spin , and its much more difficult to do in match ... unless and until you can exactly tell the amount of spin in the incoming ball its difficult to execute ..

 

[KM1976]

I think this question is for NextLevel as he is the best person to explain this concept.

NL Buddy, it doesn't happens so often that we get circumstances like this where our offline discussion gets asked in a forum. LoL

 

[talbon]

It's a pretty common shot, especially for people who received coaching from a young age. I rarely see it at an intermediate level among adults, who mostly seem to adopt the brushing action when starting later on in their life (maybe tensor rubber is to blame).

The brushing action pushed to the extreme tends to result in a low pace high-arc spinny loop. Some people don't like to return those heavy brush loops. The combination of slow & spinny & well-placed can make it appear really hard to control, so it can keep you in control of the rally, be a good set up for a kill shot or result in a direct mistake. Other people will trash such shots, or turn the spin against you to counter-attack or control the rally.

The other loop you are talking about is more of a natural extension of a drive for balls below net level, where you hit through the ball with more overall engagement than for a drive (incl. legs, waist, arm and sometimes wrist and grip tightening on impact), and less of a compact action. The shot is typically high speed/power, low to medium arc and little to very high spin. Some people refer to this as a power loop. It will often finish the point. The drawback is that it can be blocked past you if you have poor footwork, if you are out of position or have placed your attack poorly.

Both the brush loop and power loop can be very spinny, although the perception of spin might be emphasized when blocking slow heavy brush loops from very good players. However the types of feel the brush loop and power loop require are very different, so I encourage you to practice at least a little bit the one that does not come naturally to you, you might learn a lot from it.

If the power loop is not natural to you, yet you're already an intermediate level player and you're looking for a radical change in your technique to primarily use that shot: I've seen people achieve that by changing from European tensor rubbers to Chinese hard tacky rubber. Why? Because the Chinese rubber will leave no option other than to move in position (move to the ball) and to engage the body (to compensate for the lack of free catapult) to land the shot.

For the power loop against backspin, you've got to contact the ball with a lot of upwards acceleration, so you can't afford to hesitate. Make your mind about the incoming spin and commit. What may be counter-intuitive is that you want to always roughly end up in the same forward motion regardless of the spin. Otherwise the ball would fly on to the moon.

What's adjusted is the motion before and during contact. It is a completely forward motion on topspin balls (contact the ball on top); whereas it is an upward motion then forward on a backspin ball (contact the ball on the hemisphere that faces you, behind and/or to the side). Imagine that during that split second of contact with the ball, you are trying to help it over the net (upwards) before making sure it lands on the table (forward). Legs also do a big chunk of the work to lift the ball over the net. The nature of the contact is a bit 'flat', I wouldn't try to brush beyond healthy variation as this will only result in less power -- remember the sound is distinct from that of a brush loop -- think of it as half-way between a smash and a brush loop maybe?

Spin comes from the acceleration into the ball (mechanically, and/or by adding wrist or leg/core power), this is secondary and you'll figure it out over time if you experiment.

 

[NextLevel]

Drive looping back spin balls.

I was looking at some pro footage to answer this question but I'm finding a disconnect between what I'm seeing when watch pro players and what I see when I play that happens in several ways actually. they can make everything look easy and at such a high execution lel. So I thought I would take my question here among still much better players but amount some people that might be able to shed some light to a serious but still recreational player.

I'm wondering how common is it to execute what i would consider a loop drive or kill shot not sure what to call it when attacking backspin balls? It's a shot where you definitely hear the wood.

I have been playing with a friend who is a much better player than me for the last year and a half about one or twice a week. He reached a high lel 1900's playing tournaments and league play in Atlanta before quitting the game for 10 yeas. he starting back playing recreationally after moving here. He may not be playing at all that lel now but he is very quick, Athletic and hits with his legs and body just nice form and ball quality. And not a big surprise to here but Attacking, hitting back spin seems to be a strong spot. the thing I'm noticing when he attacks under spin much of the time 50% maybe it's not really a loop either. I mean he can loop it and He actually does very his shots against backspin. It looks like three different results one is a slow very spiny loop, an aggressive brush loop (what I would normally consider an aggressive attack) but much of he time I'm hearing the smack not the brush sound which looks like a third shot. I'm not really sure I would need to watch him play a match while not trying to defend it but I think his form looks similar to his normal shot but maybe more forward blade more vertical but closing on the side the ball. the ball has some hook side movement to it and its fast. it's a shot that's looking to end the point. I'm wondering how common this (I'm calling it loop drive) type shot, off back spin is at high Lel of play? And it would be interested to know how manny of you use it. It looks different from shots to what I'm I custom to seeing off back spin balls but I'm not sure if it's just me not seeing the lel of play.










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I use the shot. You perfectly described what your friend does. It is basically an of the bounce loop/loop drive vs backspin. Most Chinese/Euro off the bounce loops hook in that fashion. Just try it and you will find the balance. I do it more with my backhand than my forehand.

 

[Ilia Minkin]

I guess this is the shot you are talking about. The sound at the contact is very cool.

 

[TableTennisTom]

This is a shot I like to play with my forehand, most of the time successfully, but not always.

As others have said the stroke should be a bit more forwards, compared to a traditional loop vs backspin ball (where motion is more up). But you have to be quite precise. If you come too forwards and low, you're more likely to stick the ball in the net.

You also need to play with lots of racket speed. If you play it too slow and safe, the ball will go in the net.

Third, you need to choose the right ball to play a drive loop. It is harder against a very low, heavy backspin ball. For these it is probably better to spin up. But for balls with medium backspin or only a little backspin, you should be able to drive loop fairly consistently.

 

[yoass]

Drive looping back spin balls.

[…] much of he time I'm hearing the smack not the brush sound which looks like a third shot.

I think that's all about full commitment, going through the ball without hesitation, full power from the ground up (legs, hips, upperbody, whip mechanics) in total dedication. Timing is crucial, and you need the full power of the sweet spot on the blade, and you totally need to get the bat angle right. For which you need a very accurate reading of the incoming balls speed, drift, depth, spin.

So it all boils down to infinite practice. Because the only thing that creates perfection is infinite practice.

 

[langel]

The perticular techniques for this kind of hit depends a lot on the rubber-blade setup.
For the video example above its not a much of difference, because the chop is weak and somewhat high.
Stronger and lower chopped balls will need more lifting, driving and swinging, rather than hitting, all with different portions depending on the setup. With some setups it will be very hard to do this against well chopped balls, with others will be easyer.
So you have to find what and how to do with your setup and for that you need a consistant practice.

 

[NextLevel]

the timing of the snap and the point of the ball flight where you impact is very critical for the shot you described. Hence, its easier to do it in practice when you get a consistent spin , and its much more difficult to do in match ... unless and until you can exactly tell the amount of spin in the incoming ball its difficult to execute ..

It's not that hard. The confusion here and the reason it is "hard" is that most intermediate player are not used to taking anything off the bounce especially backspin. But once you realize it is an off the bounce shot, the most important thing is to get to the ball on time and then the spin isn't as big a deal as you think it is unless the ball is short. That's why it is easier for me on my backhand because I can adjust if the ball is shorter than I expect and I take the ball early. On the forehand, I tend to take the ball later and try to let it come long.

 

[langel]

That's why it is easier for me on my backhand because I can adjust if the ball is shorter than I expect and I take the ball early. On the forehand, I tend to take the ball later and try to let it come long.

Absolutely. Same for me. Although I prefer my FH for this hit particulary.

 

[gmiller2233]

I guess this is the shot you are talking about. The sound at the contact is very cool.

Watching this video in slow motion, with no sound this video it just kind of looked like a aggressive loop but when it switches to full speed and you can really hear the sound and see a snap at impact. for me annyway I could easily see this (maybe with the volume down) and not get what's happening there if I was not really paying attention. I think it's also because his straight Chinese arm style maybe too, I don't see it as much or as much at a high lel. For instance my friend plays a more euro bent arm and his load and swing made it more visible some how.
But this is a good example i know things are happening (like with the timing of the snap on this video a example) that's hard sometimes to understand or see what's happening on macro level. This is kind of one of the things I ment in my first paragraph with watching pro's and it not translating to what I see. Over simplification here but you could say Ma Long hits a loop drive on every forehand shot. He does get different results, but I mean his swing looks the same on every shot to me[emoji4]

So Any way some great explanations here! Very helpfully!

 

[Ilia Minkin]

I think it's also because his straight Chinese arm style maybe too, I don't see it as much or as much at a high lel. For instance my friend plays a more euro bent arm and his load and swing made it more visible some how.

Watch some 2600-2700 USATT level Chinese pros that kill it in US tourneys: Kaden Xu, Junhan Wu, Kai Zhang etc. I think that at their level it is the default shot against a push as anything soft will be counterlooped instantly. This of course can be done with a bent arm too.

What surprises me in the video is how high his racket speed is at the contact, yet his motion looks smooth and not gigantic at all. Almost lazy. I guess he lifts some serious weights to achieve that (apart from mastering the technique).

 

[NextLevel]

Watch Xu Xin playing any chopper you will see this shot a lot. Dima and Boll use it a lot too.

 

[gmiller2233]

Yes! Very loose great snap. He makes it look easy. I think good technique with his straight arm type is more deceptive with this. at least when watching the arm.

What surprises me in the video is how high his racket speed is at the contact, yet his motion looks smooth and not gigantic at all. Almost lazy. I guess he lifts some serious weights to achieve that (apart from mastering the technique).[/QUOTE]




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[ajtatosmano2]

 

[ajtatosmano2]

An important point what many players (me as well) miss during the execution of this shot:
Be aware where you contact the ball! I see many players hitting the ball at it's middle. It's wrong! It will result in a fast but only slightly spinny ball, which is pretty easy to block. Other players want to powerloop a dead ball and they they contact the ball too thin, at the top of it, because they don't want to miss the table. It's wrong! You will hit the table if you apply force in the right direction. As the first video said, contact the at it's upper middle. Don't be hesitant and apply force forward. This way the ball will kick after bounce.