high and low throw rubbers

[Der_Echte]

Pnchy coulda went to a rec club, they got those in Korea too and the champs there are 1300 USATT tops and the coach/owner no more than that either.

Maybe the ENTIRE club was trying to run a hustle operation on Pnchy and hiz coach in hopes of getting a free dinner for the entire club. I have seen that before, actually been there - done that - got the T-Shirt, but on a smaller scale with less personnel.

 

[Der_Echte]

The main point was simple. If you grip the racket relatively tight and accelerate with wrist snap, you get spin. Yes, but a REDUCED amount. But if you loosen your grip and accelerate into the ball less, the difference in spin production is significant if you use the same stroke and can get serious spin with your spin stroke. You can generate heavy underspin with a very SHORT stroke, but your pressure at impact is light and you must accelerate the bat real fast RIGHT AT impact and during the impact It helps with high toss serving because the relatively small motions make it hard to see whether you are accelerating or not (I think it also explains why many high level servers don't move past the point of contact - they don't want to reveal the acceleration). I confuse people on this serve by using a loose grip and wrist and a very short, slow looking stroke, but I have actually accelerated the bat a light to moderate degree on a short, casual looking path. This makes a medium underspin serve but if you look at my motion, all you think I could do maximum is simply light spin So rather than being confused, you can have a decent idea when someone's stroke is forced to produce a shot that has high acceleration and must generate spin of some sort. We have another player like this in my club - when the ball is slow, he can push heavy or light, but when the ball has heavy topspin, his options to manipulate it are limited and easier to read.

I'll add to confusion moar by saying a fast bat speed with a firm grip right at impact can make a very fast spinny deep under spin or top spin serve. Also possible to get less spin impacting towards bottom of blade, but too far down and it is finger ball city.

This really deserves its own thread.

I don't know what led to this, maybe I was thinking NL should know WHY I choose to push serves as a first option vs plays my level and one above... because I block well, and I change the return heavy to light to zero and get errors just like a defender does. Maybe we talked about Rich and why he is an utter MASTER of hand pressure.

I had NO IDEA that this was useful or critical to NL. I though he already had a good grasp on the importance of grip pressure at impact, and also the importance of timing the acceleration. I thought he had a grasp on how the ball will go or not go based on a sudden firming or loosening of grip pressure right before impact. I was just talking about how DER_ECHTE gets his changes. I was doing some simple drills with NL, he would serve, and I push and he try to attack, and later I served and I guess the conversation evolved on its own.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I'll add to confusion moar by saying a fast bat speed with a firm grip right at impact can make a very fast spinny deep under spin or top spin serve. Also possible to get less spin impacting towards bottom of blade, but too far down and it is finger ball city.

This really deserves its own thread.

I don't know what led to this, maybe I was thinking NL should know WHY I choose to push serves as a first option vs plays my level and one above... because I block well, and I change the return heavy to light to zero and get errors just like a defender does. Maybe we talked about Rich and why he is an utter MASTER of hand pressure.

I had NO IDEA that this was useful or critical to NL. I though he already had a good grasp on the importance of grip pressure at impact, and also the importance of timing the acceleration. I thought he had a grasp on how the ball will go or not go based on a sudden firming or loosening of grip pressure right before impact. I was just talking about how DER_ECHTE gets his changes. I was doing some simple drills with NL, he would serve, and I push and he try to attack, and later I served and I guess the conversation evolved on its own.

Great post. Top notch info. I was playing around with this today as well because I normally just don't think about it. It is really cool how much you can change the spin by that hand pressure.

 

[Der_Echte]

The main point was simple. If you grip the racket relatively tight and accelerate with wrist snap, you get spin. But if you loosen your grip and accelerate into the ball less, the difference in spin production is significant if you use the same stroke and can get serious spin with your spin stroke. It helps with high toss serving because the relatively small motions make it hard to see whether you are accelerating or not (I think it also explains why many high level servers don't move past the point of contact - they don't want to reveal the acceleration). So rather than being confused, you can have a decent idea when someone's stroke is forced to produce a shot that has high acceleration and must generate spin of some sort. We have another player like this in my club - when the ball is slow, he can push heavy or light, but when the ball has heavy topspin, his options to manipulate it are limited and easier to read.

Great post. Top notch info. I was playing around with this today as well because I normally just don't think about it. It is really cool how much you can change the spin by that hand pressure.

Thanks, but we will make a great THREAD to discuss our confessions in this area. I already confess I know about this method, can demonstrate it in person and make others understand it, but fail to consistently apply it to the degree I want under pressure in a match right now.

I is now 0230 AM and I have gotten back safe and showered. Will get 2.5 hrs of sleep, get up make a cappuccino or three, then go to work soon like revenge of Zombies.

Don't worry, zombies will not invade on Der_Echte's watch.

 

[SchemeSC]

Is it weird that all this talking about feeling and grip pressure got me thinking about the ideomotor effect and Oujia boards? At 4am in the morning after waking up to go pee?

 

[NextLevel]

I'll add to confusion moar by saying a fast bat speed with a firm grip right at impact can make a very fast spinny deep under spin or top spin serve. Also possible to get less spin impacting towards bottom of blade, but too far down and it is finger ball city.

This really deserves its own thread.

I don't know what led to this, maybe I was thinking NL should know WHY I choose to push serves as a first option vs plays my level and one above... because I block well, and I change the return heavy to light to zero and get errors just like a defender does. Maybe we talked about Rich and why he is an utter MASTER of hand pressure.

I had NO IDEA that this was useful or critical to NL. I though he already had a good grasp on the importance of grip pressure at impact, and also the importance of timing the acceleration. I thought he had a grasp on how the ball will go or not go based on a sudden firming or loosening of grip pressure right before impact. I was just talking about how DER_ECHTE gets his changes. I was doing some simple drills with NL, he would serve, and I push and he try to attack, and later I served and I guess the conversation evolved on its own.

It's like learning to play short pips or long pips - you tell people all these things but you can't really do it or understand it until you can do it repeatedly. If I understood it the way you do, I would serve the way you do.

You've always talked about Rich's hand pressure - we never discussed it in NY - and we have a similar but less tricky and less high level defender at my club who messes with it on pushes. I've played around with it and messed up lots of players, but never consistently enough to make a game around it because I sometimes felt it was cheap, and I never was sure it was worth making consistent. And I wasn't always sure I was on to something genuine. In fact, with Rich, it is not so much hand pressure as that by not accelerating into the ball, he gives a flatter ball than he should most of the time. But you have to be aware of the times when he can get away with not accelerating.

I now have a renewed enthusiasm to work on it.

BTW, my preferred play is to push and block as well - at least, that was how I got to 2000 - my game rebuild has been extensive and it takes watching matches I played a year ago to see the difference in the aggression I have brought to my game.

 

[NextLevel]

Is it weird that all this talking about feeling and grip pressure got me thinking about the ideomotor effect and Oujia boards? At 4am in the morning after waking up to go pee?

You are being assimilated, my friend.

 

[Liten]

Im so looking forward to this new post! I think I get what the effect should be, but I cant make it happen!

 

[NextLevel]

I think people are overestimating what it means as a post. The advantage Der_Echte has is that he speaks two table tennis crazy languages well enough to follow the technical videos of high level players like Werner Schlager and Kim Jung Hoon.

Part of the reason I post so much video is that the ability to communicate with articles is limited - you have to see it or get an idea of what is happening on video. Then practice it for hours (sometimes over many days/weeks/years). Then it makes sense because you can now do it. Whenever I tell people that most of my practice is at a relatively slow place and that about 10-20% of it is hard, they don't believe me. So I demonstrate it. And then they have to try it and do it. Then it makes sense.

 

[vvk1]

If anyone still needs a definition of what "Loop against chop" should be (or vice versa) look no further:

 

[NextLevel]

If anyone still needs a definition of what "Loop against chop" should be (or vice versa) look no further:

Casting pearls of wisdom at swine...

 

[Liten]

Man, he REALLY need to lift that ball!!! We're talking cattlebell-army-lifts!!
Great vid! Thanks!

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Yep. Great video. There you can see the whole thing. Look how much arc and kick those balls have and how he can't just use the arm and has to use the whole body. There is one in there where his feet are about 3 inches off from where they should be and the ball slides off his racket and bounces on his side of the table. Those are nice loops against pretty darn heavy backspin.

 

[Der_Echte]

If Der_Echte is willing, we can do something for 10-15 mins or so when I see him next. He just runs through his serves and his pushing technique and I am sure we could get him to dummy loop if necessary. I could probably do the pushing and the dummy looping but the serves are way beyond me. If you hear him speak, his internet personality makes so much sense.

What is is there about me that has any personality or fraction of making sense?

Serving is tricky in some venues. I rely on watching the ball, instead of sensing where it is like the really good servers do. Many venues' lighting conditions are horrible for serving a toss more than 16 cm.

My high toss serve IS a high toss by definition, but it isn't all that high a serve toss - averages only 1-3 feet over my head on average. I believe in allowing myself some time to see the ball and make a rhythm plus I do not really need a long stroke to make the good spin. The "Low" high toss serve gives the ball a little more penetration into the topsheet to use for my acceleration.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

What is is there about me that has any personality or fraction of making sense?

That's a darn good question. If I can figure out the answer I promise, I will let you know. For now, lets assume its the 102 gram blade with the $8.00 rubber for backhand (oh, wait, you upgraded to a $25.00 rubber on the BH). If people can figure that out then everything else will make sense.

 

[NextLevel]

What is is there about me that has any personality or fraction of making sense?

Serving is tricky in some venues. I rely on watching the ball, instead of sensing where it is like the really good servers do. Many venues' lighting conditions are horrible for serving a toss more than 16 cm.

My high toss serve IS a high toss by definition, but it isn't all that high a serve toss - averages only 1-3 feet over my head on average. I believe in allowing myself some time to see the ball and make a rhythm plus I do not really need a long stroke to make the good spin. The "Low" high toss serve gives the ball a little more penetration into the topsheet to use for my acceleration.

You all sound much more dorkish than you look, and in a good way too.

 

[Rajah*]

Im two thumbs up Carl Next Will and the rest of the gang, i must say you guys are very patient with this man who is genius and all knowing about applied physics in table tennis [emoji69] maybe he wants to be recornized and apply for the next LGL of CNT.

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[UpSideDownCarl]

You all sound much more dorkish than you look, and in a good way too.

Wait, was that dwarfish or dorkish! Hahaha.

I guess William and I look dwarfish and write in a little known language called dorkish.

Dorkish is an intellectual language that is a bit technical and rather geeky. It is usually not spoken by dwarves who are usually too cool for such intellectualism. But we are two dwarves who happen to be multilingual and won't let our rough exteriors get in the way of our sounding like bookworms.

Okay, William speaks less dorkish than that UpSideDown guy. But don't tell him because we don't want him to get jealous or upset. He already thinks I get all the ladies in my yoga classes.

Besides, the Der-Meister more than just makes up for it by speaking Korean and German like a boss.


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[Der_Echte]

Stop making sense Carl...

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Stop making sense Carl...

Oops, sorry. It must have been an accident:

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