How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

[IB66]

Dave has a slightly better rating, but a lower win % than myself this season.
We know each other pretty well, played each other a few times. After last night it’s 3-1 in my favour.
Close Match!!!

 

[Littledragonman7]

Steve plays inverted FH and Anti spin BH, our strongest player has about 80% win rate and lost 2-3 to Steve.

Morning IB66,

Good to see you in action again and thanks for the post

Below are my observations and opinions. Please let me know if/when I am off base and perhaps we could have a discussion (and learn)

Your FH serves are a real weapon, winning points outright. Good tactical intelligence adding varieties as games progresses. BTW what is your favorite setup?

In five sets, you missed very few service returns, putting high percentage of them in play

I like the times when you step in, with nose close to the ball, go for a flick. I even saw a BH banana (12:34) in there, nicely done

IMO some of your BH pushes have a draw, at times racket finishing with a sideway motion. Look at your beautiful BH push dTL (18:43) – compact, forward momentum & didn't give the other time

You move better horizontally than in & out of the table (footwork & movement). You missed many lower energy, short, give-me’s

Overall a good win. You were able to tightened things up and pull away in the fifth. On any other day I am confident at worst a 3 – 1 win. You simply have too many more skills than Steve

 

[Der_Echte]

LDM7 had a visit from Sergey Scoobie Doo. Saw a lot of good things to improve on figuring out.

There is a certain BH short arm flat shot LDM7 wants by Christmas... he will likely have it by summer if he incrementally works on it. LDM7's performance vs blocking spinny loops jumped a few levels... Sergey is one of the few who spins to win. LDM7 is really liking to spin one and bang the next attack, whether a BH and FH, a FH and FH or BH and BH combo.

 

[Der_Echte]

IB66, vs Dave...

IB66, I know you won and that counts...

Understand what went on and that you should have won so damn easy, or a lot easier than you did.

Unless you give Dave a ball with the lightest of spin, he could not attack any ball long, I mean underspin long balls. You were not in any mortal danger of losing the point if you returned his serves with medium underspin, than attacked his return with a loop.

You should have served both half long and long underspin balls to him all match, you would be getting long underspin returns to heavy spin loop, or he would make error after error attacking to give you free points.

One example of this is the match winning point... you served long underspin (medium) and he tried to loop... it wasn't even close. that is how safe you were giving him long underspin if it was medium or better.

He likes to hit or punch or counter vs medium speed balls that are a bit high and definitely long... he would serve medium fast deep, mostly dead, you would either attack it for an error, or poke it back a little high to him... just what he wants for a rally. He would win a very high percentage of those. You served a number of high or long dead and long topspin... This gave Dave a lot of advantage. You kept playing right into his strengths and it cost you a lot of points that otherwise you could have and should have had the advantage and won most.

You had zero need to attack his long serves (for all those errors you made). You could have returned medium spin underspin and been totally safe from attack... and he would have given you a long underpsin to attack or he would have flailed at the ball and made an error. Then all you needed to do was heavy topspin and he blocks it out.

When you served long topspin he loved it. You should have stuck to medium underspin short, halflong, and long to setup your offense. You did that maybe half the time. You let him have extra points in the match he should not have had, you granted them to him for practically free.

The whole match went this way. You made error after error attacking his serve or poking it high to give him points or advantage in the rally. You did not use your serve to set yourself up but half the time... so you placed yourself at a disadvantage in rallies and had to play better at what he likes in order to stay even. You had to work way harder than needed.

LDM7 faced three opponents today like this (opponents who were incapable of looping a long underspin) and played pretty much the same way. (and he was very unsatisfied how it turned out) I hope he sees this and listens to anyone who asks him to play the percentages better and play to his strengths / avoid playing into opponent strengths.

 

[Littledragonman7]

Tactical intelligence is a legit skill that should be (and hopefully can be) acquired, honed and developed

Although when one takes a look at any of my round robin matches today, TI was low to none existence on many ends

Twice was I up (2 – 0), went on to lose both matches (got ahead of myself?) – NOT C00L

After winning Monday’s league group & a fun session with Der and Scooby Sergey, admittedly self-expectation was high. As a result I was tight. Not without trying, I simply couldn't get out of my own way

I am discovering “the skill to win” is a door I must walk through (on my own?) and my door is different than everyone else's

I am discovering the difference between improvement in training and the time it takes to turn that into performance at important matches under pressure

In closing this I am sure of - I do not want to be a player increasing in training base, yet not know how to win points under stress

grumpy ldm7

 

[Der_Echte]

LDM7 today saw up front close and personal how development in training and competition works. it simply does not transfer right away. 6 months is a pretty damn fast timeline for something to improve in training and have it be an asset in a competitive match.

LDM7 was ranked bottom of group, but IMO was easily the one with better technical shot making ability. What killed him today was being tight (made him miss so many easy finishing point chances that he setup well) and playing right into the strengths of opponent (attack serve and miss - bump ball medium speed to power zone) and no one will win matches playing that way, one gives up too much advantage like that.

LDM7 would have had advantages in every point and game if he did it the right way or at least effective enough way... and he lost his advantage nearly every point... and STILL was either taking it to 5th game or was up 2-0 vs his opponents.

That is a sign that if he can stay loose/calm and make better shot selection and shot setup decisions, he would be in driver's seat CRUISING down Main St.

 

[Der_Echte]

Sometimes it is just ONE adjustment that gets you back in it, sometimes two.

Summer 2021 in 888 teams I face a girl who get the spy memo on how to serve to me... I would attack and miss... so I had to gear it down... and return underspin, she didn't loop, was tricky to get it low enough not to be hit... that one adjustment, along with adding in a few medium loops got me back in it and barely won.

I was on track to lose the last 3 games of the match hooooorrrrribly, like 11-5, but the one adjustment I made on positioning on serve got me back in it.

One just needs to be aware of what happened and why.. and how to adjust to counter the losing points.

Sometimes the adjustment is such a simple one.

 

[Der_Echte]

I privately told Sergey Scoobie Doo (and dammit, he had better comment !!) that LDM7's oppnoents (3 of them) could not successfully loop a long medium spin underspin ball if you paid them $100 cash money.

When you face such an opponent, an easy adjustment to attacking their serves and missing is to push long with medium underspin, then heavy topspin the next ball. It is a ball LDM7 nails nearly 80-90% in practice, so it is flipping the percentages from very low to very high.

 

[Wrighty67]

LDM7 today saw up front close and personal how development in training and competition works. it simply does not transfer right away. 6 months is a pretty damn fast timeline for something to improve in training and have it be an asset in a competitive match.

LDM7 was ranked bottom of group, but IMO was easily the one with better technical shot making ability. What killed him today was being tight (made him miss so many easy finishing point chances that he setup well) and playing right into the strengths of opponent (attack serve and miss - bump ball medium speed to power zone) and no one will win matches playing that way, one gives up too much advantage like that.

LDM7 would have had advantages in every point and game if he did it the right way or at least effective enough way... and he lost his advantage nearly every point... and STILL was either taking it to 5th game or was up 2-0 vs his opponents.

That is a sign that if he can stay loose/calm and make better shot selection and shot setup decisions, he would be in driver's seat CRUISING down Main St.

This applies to many of us - it is my biggest issue right now too..

 

[Wrighty67]

Tactical intelligence is a legit skill that should be (and hopefully can be) acquired, honed and developed

Although when one takes a look at any of my round robin matches today, TI was low to none existence on many ends

Twice was I up (2 – 0), went on to lose both matches (got ahead of myself?) – NOT C00L

After winning Monday’s league group & a fun session with Der and Scooby Sergey, admittedly self-expectation was high. As a result I was tight. Not without trying, I simply couldn't get out of my own way

I am discovering “the skill to win” is a door I must walk through (on my own?) and my door is different than everyone else's

I am discovering the difference between improvement in training and the time it takes to turn that into performance at important matches under pressure

In closing this I am sure of - I do not want to be a player increasing in training base, yet not know how to win points under stress

grumpy ldm7

You have my deepest sympathy - I can resonate fully with this and it mirrors my own experiences completely. My coach has even said that he doesn't recognise the player I send him in my videos vs the player that turns up to lessons every Friday!

Tightness kills so many of my shots, but it also sees me fail to adjust to a serve I am missing in time to stop the game disappearing etc etc....

I have a match tonight and I am nervous already just thinking about it.

 

[jammmail]

You have my deepest sympathy - I can resonate fully with this and it mirrors my own experiences completely. My coach has even said that he doesn't recognise the player I send him in my videos vs the player that turns up to lessons every Friday!

Tightness kills so many of my shots, but it also sees me fail to adjust to a serve I am missing in time to stop the game disappearing etc etc....

I have a match tonight and I am nervous already just thinking about it.

Relaxing is a difficult balance as you still need to be focused and switched on also. I am trying to stay calmer and play each point. Make sure i'm ready, a trick another player taught me is putting my bat down or switching to my other hand between points - or even just spinning it in your hands. It really does help stop gripping the bat and getting tight.

But I have gone 15 league games without a win - so my advise might not be the best haha 🙃 . We have the top of the league this week with 90/80/70 win ratios. So tbh there is nothing to loose. The runs got to change soon right? .... right?

 

[Wrighty67]

Relaxing is a difficult balance as you still need to be focused and switched on also. I am trying to stay calmer and play each point. Make sure i'm ready, a trick another player taught me is putting my bat down or switching to my other hand between points - or even just spinning it in your hands. It really does help stop gripping the bat and getting tight.

But I have gone 15 league games without a win - so my advise might not be the best haha 🙃 . We have the top of the league this week with 90/80/70 win ratios. So tbh there is nothing to loose. The runs got to change soon right? .... right?

Good points - finding a way to slow the rhythm if things are not going well and relaxing grip is a good call.

That's been a painful season so far for you - I am not much better but the most recent win I had was against a very good pimple player who I had never come close to beating. I had no expectations at all going in and was much more relaxed and ended up winning 3-2.

 

[jammmail]

Good points - finding a way to slow the rhythm if things are not going well and relaxing grip is a good call.

That's been a painful season so far for you - I am not much better but the most recent win I had was against a very good pimple player who I had never come close to beating. I had no expectations at all going in and was much more relaxed and ended up winning 3-2.

It has - but I'm feeling way more positive that a few weeks ago tbh even if the results haven't shown. I had changed to many things, equipment, serves, positioning - and listening to too many people. Ive gone back on a lot of things atm and I'm playing better even if results aren't going my way.

 

[dingyibvs]

I am a low level player struggling at techniques yet. To me, this strategy analysis is still too far away that practicing techniques benefits me more.

Yeah same here. Analysis is for maximizing your existing skills, I'm more interested in improving my skills right now. That means in matches I may do things I know is more likely to lose points, but I need to do it in order to improve.

 

[Der_Echte]

Hi dingyibvs,

You are getting into the territory of strategic development decisions (implement shots and lose points now in matches) vs tactical decision making (doing the things to win points in a match)

This is an incredibly important aspect of TT.

Every player has to ask themselves how much they are willing to lose points in a match to develop the habits and shots needed in a match, even if they will likely lose lots of points, games, and matches. Some players cannot train for obvious reasons like no real club near them. This may be the only option for many players - use matches as a way to train habits and shots for later success.

Every player wants to win and many tend to play to win... and often that means throwing away things learned/developed in training and resorting to their old instincts and ways of "animal fighting". Not to diss that much, that kind of energy is needed to win sometimes, but playing every point, game, and match to win can really hamper strategic development.

A player should figure out their balance of this ahead of time and stay true to it, maybe modify it as skills/aptitude develop,

 

[Der_Echte]

Yeah same here. Analysis is for maximizing your existing skills, I'm more interested in improving my skills right now. That means in matches I may do things I know is more likely to lose points, but I need to do it in order to improve.

It has - but I'm feeling way more positive that a few weeks ago tbh even if the results haven't shown. I had changed to many things, equipment, serves, positioning - and listening to too many people. Ive gone back on a lot of things atm and I'm playing better even if results aren't going my way.

I bolded some text above.

This is also a hugely important thing in TT.

One may not win games or matches, but may have improved astronomically.

Look at how one makes shot decisions, how they construct points, how they handle pressure/adversity, how they attempt the shots they should when and how they should, the quality of the shots (spin, pace, depth/penetration, suddenness, control, placement, position/leverage, power, control of strike zone), how much shots trouble opponents, how much pressure you place opponent under, how they are calm, how they can adapt to what opponents give, how they can discern impact and prepare/execute shot, how they can move to ball on time on balance ready to strike, how they control grip pressure, how they make adjustments, how they adjust to opponent's adjustments, how they stick to a game plan and change when needed, how much belief they show in a shot/game plan, how well they manage or control a point, how well they back off power when needed, how they see and read the opponent and take advantage, how they find the opponent's middle...

I would take noticeable improvement in one to one hundred of these areas over a match win (won by animal fighting) any day of the week and three times on tourney Sunday.

 

[Wrighty67]

Hi dingyibvs,

You are getting into the territory of strategic development decisions (implement shots and lose points now in matches) vs tactical decision making (doing the things to win points in a match)

This is an incredibly important aspect of TT.

Every player has to ask themselves how much they are willing to lose points in a match to develop the habits and shots needed in a match, even if they will likely lose lots of points, games, and matches. Some players cannot train for obvious reasons like no real club near them. This may be the only option for many players - use matches as a way to train habits and shots for later success.

Every player wants to win and many tens to play to win... and often that means throwing away things learned/developed in training and resorting to their old instincts and ways of "animal fighting". Not to diss that much, that kind of energy is needed to win sometimes, but playing every point, game, and match to win can really hamper strategic development.

A player should figure out their balance of this ahead of time and stay true to it, maybe modify it as skills/aptitude develop,

I often find that by playing the shots I want to learn and focus on in matches (usually more offensive / less pushing) I will win more points by taking a pro-active and intentional approach. When I forget to do this and revert to safety I often lose anyway and then feel terrible for lacking the courage to try the shots I am developing.

 

[NextLevel]

Sometimes it is just ONE adjustment that gets you back in it, sometimes two.

Summer 2021 in 888 teams I face a girl who get the spy memo on how to serve to me... I would attack and miss... so I had to gear it down... and return underspin, she didn't loop, was tricky to get it low enough not to be hit... that one adjustment, along with adding in a few medium loops got me back in it and barely won.

I was on track to lose the last 3 games of the match hooooorrrrribly, like 11-5, but the one adjustment I made on positioning on serve got me back in it.

One just needs to be aware of what happened and why.. and how to adjust to counter the losing points.

Sometimes the adjustment is such a simple one.

IF you play long enough and are a thinking player, you have lots of examples like this below 2000 level. Above 2100 level, things are more physical and are often more nuanced, as most people at that level are ready to move so it is rare to overwhelm someone just on strategy. But even then, if you always remember point patterns, it always serves you well in picking strategy. And usually, it helps to have a player (or even non-player) coach you and see what is going on in real time and see whether you can learn from their observations.

 

[NextLevel]

I often find that by playing the shots I want to learn and focus on in matches (usually more offensive / less pushing) I will win more points by taking a pro-active and intentional approach. When I forget to do this and revert to safety I often lose anyway and then feel terrible for lacking the courage to try the shots I am developing.

It isn't a big deal, the reality is that people care too much about winning. Find pleasure in playing points the way you constructed them, reward yourself for adapting to the opponent's play and ball quality. Use matches as input to grow over time. Losing is a powerful motivator.

There will always be someone to beat you. I am still at a point where I enjoy playing powerful shots. I can miss playing powerful shots, it is okay with me. The most important thing is to play the way I practice.

 

[Littledragonman7]

Stats wise:
look at how many shots win/loose from what kind of incoming ball, and what kind of shot going out.
understand where the numbers come from in terms of unforced errors (threw away the point) vs points opponents really gained

strategy:
look at where the opponents serves
look at how the opponent returns the serve
look at strategy of opponent
and link the strategy imposed versus the execution results (stats above) to have a bigger picture of how it was won, or how it was lost.

Write a summary and this is good for training and future matches against the same player

Greetings @Tony's Table Tennis:

I have been reviewing earlier posts in the thread and came across your feedback

I took it to heart, although watched only initial 50 points of a January 2023 match, noting each takeaway along the way (i've played Jeremy many times)

I jotted down in my player notebook what makes him uncomfortable and what his strengths are

I am happy to share I was able to overcome Jeremy in our most recent bout (3 - 1) after consistently losing to him in the recent (match video in earlier post #528)

There are literally hundreds of activities you could be doing, yet your time and suggestion showed me a way to study my match play in developing my game (and training?) Thank you,

LDM7