How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

[LDM7]

That's the plan - the reality is that when faced with these pushes I tense up and lose confidence so need to really force myself to jump back, get low and swing freely to get the lift followed by the spin to bring the ball down - it's a shot I love (Ma Long's is my model BH loop) and so I am very motivated indeed to nail it.

tis is da' talk we need from @Wrighty67

let's do work!

as iron sharpens another, let's NAIL IT TOGETHER Wrighty?!

interesting you said ML though = your model BH when he's known for his FH ... humm

started watching jst a bit of your BH vid, will finish tonight (after work)

 

[LDM7]

This is a great way to organize training. You chose a real point pattern that happens a lot to improve your response to the expected receive. You can play whole matches serving to get into this pattern and work on it almost like doing exercises with your coach.

are you reading this @Der_Echte

ha ha & ta' ta'

 

[Wrighty67]

tis is da' talk we need from @Wrighty67

let's do work!

as iron sharpens another, let's NAIL IT TOGETHER Wrighty?!

interesting you said ML though = your model BH when he's known for his FH ... humm

started watching jst a bit of your BH vid, will finish tonight (after work)

Count me in partner 👊🏻

Check out the ML BH here…

 

[LDM7]

There is so much good stuff going on in here. Your anticipation is great, and very active movement. Also your no-spin and smash against high balls is super strong. There were some nice backhands in there as well.

If you want something to work on, maybe forehand loop vs backspin. I watched the receive at 1:43 a bunch of times on slow-mo. Your finger is way up the back of your rubber and your grip seems very high on the bat. This may help add power to your smashes but limit your spin generation. Also you kind of jump-turn, which again is great to add power to smashes, but keeping your feet on the ground and pushing off might generate more lift on backspin balls.

In general I think your game is at a point where adding more spin would be very powerful to mess with your opponents. They are already under a lot of pressure from your aggressive flat attacks. They have to keep the ball low. If you serve backspin, they push, and you fh loop it up slow and spinny, how can they handle that? If they block back high you will start the smash pattern. That's the pattern I would go to next. Your movement is so good it would support playing fh over about 80% of the table.

Greetings @Brs

Tks 4 noting the nuances in my grip (index finger 1:43) and FH loop (vs backspin), yet your most surprising comment comes my movement (Monday RR) would support playing FH over about 80% of the table (get tired quicker)

QUESTIONS:

I have heard (and played around with) sliding my hand down lower the handle a smidget. Is it possible when budding my hand (thumb & index) right up against the racket, I gain (more) control as well as power?


On return of serve grip: currently I get ready by pinching the racket with my thumb and index finger. I like starting with this relaxed, “loosey-goosey ” feeling (bottom three fingers dangling free) also quick to get into a FH/BH grip. Any thoughts?


Finally can I interpret (or think of) your FH loop “jump-turn” comment as try keeping both feet on the ground, hitting with a compact stroke? Somehow I feel by “hopping” into the stroke helps me lifting the ball up, over the net yet with forward momentum …

btw, any chance we could see you in action in one of your league matches (if video available)?

 

[LDM7]

Count me in partner 👊🏻

Check out the ML BH here…

Video on ML’s BH (evolution)

Man @Wrighty67 there’s a lot going on here ...

I gather the two different BH strokes: one’s when ball is more at his middle (power from right leg & hip, MMA punching)

the later when ball is more at left side of the body (incl further away from table) power comes from left leg/hip with a slight body rotation (from left to right)

Solidify my BH is one of my two top priorities in 2023: counter, regular blocking incoming loop, chop block, punch block, looping over 3-zones ... & more

Thanks for this re-post

Let’s go to work Der!

 

[Der_Echte]

LDM7, You oughta ask Dean how my BH was working Tues at Citrus Heights... he had court side view as we were both practicing with Egyptian Sam (retriever with pips). Dean wonders how I can get pace from a short compact stroke... it is all about the lower arm whip, a little wrist, and firming... the timing to get it all together at the right moments.

Fortunately, the short arm hit kind of BH is real easy to do (if in position on time) (or ball just magically comes there)

The other BHs take time, but as NL had said in another post, when you get position, then bend knees and squat down, you get leverage forever and a BH vs underspin gets easy.

The BH counter topspin vs a strong ball is more tricky, it comes later, for now just hit medium on that. There is a single ball from multi ball i can give you for that, but honestly, at your level and even mine, there is not a whole lot of counter topspin rip shots going on (that actually land)

What you have geared in your head (a reliable BH heavy topspin opener and a follow up FH or BH hit finish is a very good thing at both our levels - a real weapon.

 

[Der_Echte]

LDM7, I just recently posted a vid where Joo Sae Hyuk gave his thoughts on grip, auto translate eng subs is coherent enough, give it a look.

 

[Der_Echte]

This vid has real good Eng subs and gives some answers to BH topspins for developing players.

 

[Brs]

Greetings @Brs

Tks 4 noting the nuances in my grip (index finger 1:43) and FH loop (vs backspin), yet your most surprising comment comes my movement (Monday RR) would support playing FH over about 80% of the table (get tired quicker)

QUESTIONS:

I have heard (and played around with) sliding my hand down lower the handle a smidget. Is it possible when budding my hand (thumb & index) right up against the racket, I gain (more) control as well as power?


On return of serve grip: currently I get ready by pinching the racket with my thumb and index finger. I like starting with this relaxed, “loosey-goosey ” feeling (bottom three fingers dangling free) also quick to get into a FH/BH grip. Any thoughts?


Finally can I interpret (or think of) your FH loop “jump-turn” comment as try keeping both feet on the ground, hitting with a compact stroke? Somehow I feel by “hopping” into the stroke helps me lifting the ball up, over the net yet with forward momentum …

btw, any chance we could see you in action in one of your league matches (if video available)?

The most important thing with grip is your comfort level with it. I also hold my index finger further up the BH side than "best practice" would say is right. So you may gain more control not just power. I retract that part of my comment. Something went wrong on that one stroke, because you were in good position and appeared to read the ball well. Maybe your wrist was a little bit tight so not enough bat head speed was generated. Or your arm wasn't supported by your body movement. You will be the best judge of what happened on any one stroke, good or bad. because you are the only one who knows what you felt. Why do you think it went in the net?

And maybe play around with your grip a little more, just to see how it feels vs backspin when you make small changes. But don't take my comment as serious advice because I don't know what your hand feels when you change things. But I still hold my opinion that strengthening your spinny fh open vs push would be a good next move for your matchplay development.

It feels like hopping helps lift because you are lifting your body. But I don't think it helps lift the ball irl. This is easy to test in practice if you have someone to feed you backspin, or do third ball drill where you serve, he pushes to your fh half, you loop, play out. I feel pretty sure that it works better to keep both feet on the ground and use the ground to push against instead of jumping up. Possibly only because by definition your body is lower if you do that, and lower is often better in TT. Idk, try it and see what you think works best for you. Recovery will def be better if you don't jump. But making a quality shot (or at least on the table shot) takes priority over recovery right now.

I have posted a lot of videos before both exercises and matches in various threads and forums (and even the LTT series on TTedge.com). I can put an old one up here if you want. And I also signed up for three tourneys in the next six weeks, starting next weekend in ATL. So if you want I can post a match from one of those and you will see my current form. I'm not feeling very strong atm. The transition from 3 hours of private training a week to only playing league matches is degrading my skills even faster than I expected.

 

[LDM7]

The most important thing with grip is your comfort level with it. I also hold my index finger further up the BH side than "best practice" would say is right. So you may gain more control not just power. I retract that part of my comment. Something went wrong on that one stroke, because you were in good position and appeared to read the ball well. Maybe your wrist was a little bit tight so not enough bat head speed was generated. Or your arm wasn't supported by your body movement. You will be the best judge of what happened on any one stroke, good or bad. because you are the only one who knows what you felt. Why do you think it went in the net?

And maybe play around with your grip a little more, just to see how it feels vs backspin when you make small changes. But don't take my comment as serious advice because I don't know what your hand feels when you change things. But I still hold my opinion that strengthening your spinny fh open vs push would be a good next move for your matchplay development.

It feels like hopping helps lift because you are lifting your body. But I don't think it helps lift the ball irl. This is easy to test in practice if you have someone to feed you backspin, or do third ball drill where you serve, he pushes to your fh half, you loop, play out. I feel pretty sure that it works better to keep both feet on the ground and use the ground to push against instead of jumping up. Possibly only because by definition your body is lower if you do that, and lower is often better in TT. Idk, try it and see what you think works best for you. Recovery will def be better if you don't jump. But making a quality shot (or at least on the table shot) takes priority over recovery right now.

I have posted a lot of videos before both exercises and matches in various threads and forums (and even the LTT series on TTedge.com). I can put an old one up here if you want. And I also signed up for three tourneys in the next six weeks, starting next weekend in ATL. So if you want I can post a match from one of those and you will see my current form. I'm not feeling very strong atm. The transition from 3 hours of private training a week to only playing league matches is degrading my skills even faster than I expected.

When my index finger is higher, I just feel more confident (control?) that FH swing is landing. I saw this throughout my match vs Jeremy

I recall looking for (wanting) a BH at (1:43) as evident by my right foot taking a step to my right

When the serve came into middle (after initial reaction of oh crap), in an effort to regain better strike zone, my upper body slightly leaned to the left (momentum, energy not forward). Yet most importantly at ball contact - my bat angle was too closed. Ball was at the bottom half of the net

I am not sure about tension (finger, grip, elbow, arm…)

As I experiment with racket grip, I am really liking (more & more) that pinch created by thumb and index b/c bottom three fingers are dangling allows for that “loosey-goosey” feeling. Only time will tell.

I concur with your opinion to strengthen my spinny FH open vs a push. I like my chances when the next ball back is a little high in my FH radar

When feet on ground, leg pushing, recovery quicker too, get ready for next ball. I like where this is going ...

I would love to see your current form from one of three upcoming tourneys (Atlanta?)

 

[LDM7]

LDM7, You oughta ask Dean how my BH was working Tues at Citrus Heights... he had court side view as we were both practicing with Egyptian Sam (retriever with pips). Dean wonders how I can get pace from a short compact stroke... it is all about the lower arm whip, a little wrist, and firming... the timing to get it all together at the right moments.

Fortunately, the short arm hit kind of BH is real easy to do (if in position on time) (or ball just magically comes there)

The other BHs take time, but as NL had said in another post, when you get position, then bend knees and squat down, you get leverage forever and a BH vs underspin gets easy.

The BH counter topspin vs a strong ball is more tricky, it comes later, for now just hit medium on that. There is a single ball from multi ball i can give you for that, but honestly, at your level and even mine, there is not a whole lot of counter topspin rip shots going on (that actually land)

What you have geared in your head (a reliable BH heavy topspin opener and a follow up FH or BH hit finish is a very good thing at both our levels - a real weapon.

a reliable BH heavy topspin opener and a follow up FH or BH hit finish is a very good thing

I WANT THAT!

 

[LDM7]

LDM7, I just recently posted a vid where Joo Sae Hyuk gave his thoughts on grip, auto translate eng subs is coherent enough, give it a look.

@Der_Echte could you post link if possible? tks,

 

[Der_Echte]

Hi LDM7, here it is.

Joo Sae Hyuk talks Racket Grip with Oscar

JSH makes some really concise basic comments all about grip. One great thing he says is that one should be more concerned about what a certain grip gives you and makes you lose... there are no perfect solutions, but trade-offs. He shows one BH grip (thumb up on rubber) that Chinese like and is...

www.tabletennisdaily.com

 

[Brs]

I recall looking for (wanting) a BH at (1:43) as evident by my right foot taking a step to my right

Ah yes, the dreaded pre-decision. We all do this and it is soooo not helpful. When we serve then we can expect a certain receive back, or at least a course (ex: serve long to bh and step around to play fh expecting a long diagonal receive). But when opponent serves, or any time we aren't in control of the rally, looking *for* a specific ball is bad. Not thinking, only looking at the ball and reacting to whatever the opponent gives you, is very good, especially on receive.

 

[Brs]

I will post a video week after next then. And I expect everyone on here to tell me why I won or lost the match.

 

[LDM7]

Ah yes, the dreaded pre-decision. We all do this and it is soooo not helpful. When we serve then we can expect a certain receive back, or at least a course (ex: serve long to bh and step around to play fh expecting a long diagonal receive). But when opponent serves, or any time we aren't in control of the rally, looking *for* a specific ball is bad. Not thinking, only looking at the ball and reacting to whatever the opponent gives you, is very good, especially on receive.

Yup, service return is one of my two top training priorities in 2023, need to decrease (get rid of) serve return pre-decision, more often than not it put me in a "oh crap" situation

There are many things you could be doing with your time Brs. So thanks a lot for engaging and share from your experiences, opinions and ideas

My game (e.g. movement, hop steps) has definitely improved from my time on TTD b/c of players like you. Also teaching me how to learn, to think for myself, visualize situations and talking about everything pinga ponga

Have a nice day

 

[Der_Echte]

brs, regardless of how your match comes out or how you played in it, any of us who have been watching the forum KNOW that you are legit. Your posts speak a story that shows you are competent. There is a lot to be gleaned long term when you see what someone says over time.

 

[LDM7]

I will post a video week after next then. And I expect everyone on here to tell me why I won or lost the match.

that's sum fuNNy chit, LOL

 

[NextLevel]

This vid has real good Eng subs and gives some answers to BH topspins for developing players.

Let's just say that I have never been particularly impressed by Korean backhand technique videos.

@NextLevel

The other thing about backspin is that it works better when you turn/spin the ball, rather than when you smack the ball. As a general rule, modern rubbers work better this way, which is why it is best to catch the ball close to the tip of your racket when looping and to learn to topspin high balls rather smack them unless they are lobs

=> could you further clarify what "turn/spin the ball" mean?

I am working myself back into being able to post video again, hopefully I will find time to edit and share something

=> perhaps NL, could you make some demonstrative videos supporting your thread concepts & ideas?

Smack the ball - thick contact, usually flat, usually not designed to arc the ball.
turn/spin the ball - brush contact, rarely thick unless your sponge is powerful/boosted, usually designed to make the ball spin.

I can make video but there is already a lot of good video out there.

 

[IB66]

Steve plays inverted FH and Anti spin BH, our strongest player has about 80% win rate and lost 2-3 to Steve.