How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

[Wrighty67]

It isn't a big deal, the reality is that people care too much about winning. Find pleasure in playing points the way you constructed them, reward yourself for adapting to the opponent's play and ball quality. Use matches as input to grow over time. Losing is a powerful motivator.

There will always be someone to beat you. I am still at a point where I enjoy playing powerful shots. I can miss playing powerful shots, it is okay with me. The most important thing is to play the way I practice.

I will be repeating that mantra in my head at tonights match - wish me luck!

 

[NextLevel]

The funny thing when I say I enjoy playing powerful shots is that it will give you the wrong impression. My game, because I can't practice serves, is heavily rally focused. I serve mostly backspin with no spin and topspin variations on occasion, and play a 3rd ball spin up if the ball doesn't popup and a fifth ball attack with power off the block and to one of the corners. I open with slow heavy topspin on both sides, especially on the backhand side. This gets me into trouble with the better players since my knees are shit, but most players just hate the slow spin and block everything long and pop everything up.

I am going to find a Korean video which should be legendary and better known. What the guy said about how he improved quickly should be understood by more amateur players. I followed a similar path to developing my game and if I Was shorter or my knees were better, it would have paid off more easily.

 

[LDM7]

It isn't a big deal, the reality is that people care too much about winning

=> i tink i am making winning (losing) too big of a deal, each does not define me

=> in fact, caring so much increase my expectation and make me very anxious & early contacting incoming balls

Find pleasure in playing points the way you constructed them, reward yourself for adapting to the opponent's play and ball quality.

Use matches as input to grow over time. Losing is a powerful motivator

=> yes, learning to use matches to guide training

=> i am not as frustrated if i play decent (compete) yet lose

=> i think i set myself up for failure at Sunday debacle (overly anxious & tight)

There will always be someone to beat you. I am still at a point where I enjoy playing powerful shots. I can miss playing powerful shots, it is okay with me. The most important thing is to play the way I practice

=> have not practiced (nor played) many players like i faced sunday

=> i think i like a little pace and spin; some of these low spin, double bouncing, dead serves & rally balls piss me off

 

[LDM7]

I will be repeating that mantra in my head at tonights match - wish me luck!

@Wrighty67

know that there's a team of us with you each time you pick up a racket

turn to us with a nod when you miss

eye us with a wink when you land

find confidence from within for you posses the inner strength and solution

trust your training and let it flow

Yet most importantly - WIN OR LOSE INDEED DOES NOT DEFINE US

Knock it down Mate, Together!


P.S. pls remember & share a fuNNy (or joyful) moment from match

 

[NextLevel]

I will be repeating that mantra in my head at tonights match - wish me luck!

It is a bit different in a team competition but if you and your teammates are all on the same page, then there should be a healthy balance between your personal improvement goals, and their desire to win matches. The USATT rating and individualistic system has its benefits and demerits, but one of the good things about it, especially the weekly league system which some clubs have, is that you get to play people around your level, play a lot of matches.

I don't think many coaches focus enough on just basic spinning of the ball with the wrists at the lower levels. To me if you spin the ball as an adult player, that is all you really should ask for.

I spent a lot of time wasted on regretting winning and losing matches. It basically slowed adaptation and led to focusing on things that delayed improvement. While it is important to be a strategic player, make sure that you aren't playing in a way you don't enjoy for fear of losing. IF you practice looping/spinning enough and figure out how to make the ball do what you want it to do, especially in response to the opponent's spin or lack thereof, it is a massive game changer.

 

[IB66]

There is so much good stuff going on in here. Your anticipation is great, and very active movement. Also your no-spin and smash against high balls is super strong. There were some nice backhands in there as well.

If you want something to work on, maybe forehand loop vs backspin. I watched the receive at 1:43 a bunch of times on slow-mo. Your finger is way up the back of your rubber and your grip seems very high on the bat. This may help add power to your smashes but limit your spin generation. Also you kind of jump-turn, which again is great to add power to smashes, but keeping your feet on the ground and pushing off might generate more lift on backspin balls.

In general I think your game is at a point where adding more spin would be very powerful to mess with your opponents. They are already under a lot of pressure from your aggressive flat attacks. They have to keep the ball low. If you serve backspin, they push, and you fh loop it up slow and spinny, how can they handle that? If they block back high you will start the smash pattern. That's the pattern I would go to next. Your movement is so good it would support playing fh over about 80% of the table

Monday night's RR vs Doan (3-2) #1 seed (long pips on BH side, Yaiks!)

I was #3 seeded in a group of 5 plyrs

Thank you for giving this vid (12:35) a watch, feedback and assist me improve

Hi LDM7,

I’m playing severe catch up on this thread, busy week last week!!

Looking good, so much improvement, SO MUCH!!! When I remember back to some early footage, chalk and cheese, You are putting the effort in big time, assisted by your partner in crime, Der.!!! Compliments to both of you!!!

Serves - as Wrighty mentioned, MUCH better, giving em issues, nice!!
movement - way better, a little bouncy, but I’d rather see bounce than no bounce (unlike me, static, ha ha, stuck to the spot!!)

Patience - putting on pressure and attacking more of the right balls, being more picky.

Some good backhands.

You are improving very nicely!!!
You looked like a better player than your opponents, this doesn’t mean you’ll win!!! This is TT after all and looks are deceiving!!!
it looks like you ‘SHOULD’ win. Eventually you‘ll put these guys away, no probs!!

 

[NextLevel]

=> i tink i am making winning (losing) too big of a deal, each does not define me

=> in fact, caring so much increase my expectation and make me very anxious & early contacting incoming balls





=> yes, learning to use matches to guide training

=> i am not as frustrated if i play decent (compete) yet lose

=> i think i set myself up for failure at Sunday debacle (overly anxious & tight)



=> have not practiced (nor played) many players like i faced sunday

=> i think i like a little pace and spin; some of these low spin, double bouncing, dead serves & rally balls piss me off

Yes, they piss everyone off. And it pisses them off even more when you show that it doesn't bother you. It is now commonly said in corporate world that feedback is a gift. With a gift, you have an option to accept or throw it away. Just take every point as the gift of feedback. Use it to learn and adapt. Use the match to get better at what you practiced. Maybe you practiced one to the elbow and one to the corners. Or you practiced winning the backhand to backhand rally. Or you practiced going down the line with the forehand more. Or you worked on holding the table. Or you worked on attacking serves. Judge yourself by those things.

To me, tactics become more important when you have kept your rating/level stable for about 2 years. Then you are trying to squeeze every small thing out of your game. People like Der and myself can be extremely tactically focused if we want to compete because our games are not going to change overnight. For someone like you, while tactics are important, you will probably be beating some of the players you are struggling with tactically in any way you choose in another 6 months.

 

[IB66]

brs, regardless of how your match comes out or how you played in it, any of us who have been watching the forum KNOW that you are legit. Your posts speak a story that shows you are competent. There is a lot to be gleaned long term when you see what someone says over time.

Well, I’ve played against Brs!! Last summer when he was in London, much higher level player than myself!!!

 

[IB66]

LDM7 had a visit from Sergey Scoobie Doo. Saw a lot of good things to improve on figuring out.

There is a certain BH short arm flat shot LDM7 wants by Christmas... he will likely have it by summer if he incrementally works on it. LDM7's performance vs blocking spinny loops jumped a few levels... Sergey is one of the few who spins to win. LDM7 is really liking to spin one and bang the next attack, whether a BH and FH, a FH and FH or BH and BH combo.

How’s Sergey doing!! Is he ever gonna sign up? Or is it a lost cause!!!

 

[dingyibvs]

Yes, they piss everyone off. And it pisses them off even more when you show that it doesn't bother you. It is now commonly said in corporate world that feedback is a gift. With a gift, you have an option to accept or throw it away. Just take every point as the gift of feedback. Use it to learn and adapt. Use the match to get better at what you practiced. Maybe you practiced one to the elbow and one to the corners. Or you practiced winning the backhand to backhand rally. Or you practiced going down the line with the forehand more. Or you worked on holding the table. Or you worked on attacking serves. Judge yourself by those things.

To me, tactics become more important when you have kept your rating/level stable for about 2 years. Then you are trying to squeeze every small thing out of your game. People like Der and myself can be extremely tactically focused if we want to compete because our games are not going to change overnight. For someone like you, while tactics are important, you will probably be beating some of the players you are struggling with tactically in any way you choose in another 6 months.

Yeah I think for developing players, analysis should mostly mean identifying weaknesses, then after practice how to apply those improvements. For example, due to the wide FH/BH disparity I get caught attempting a lot of extreme pivot shots which I can no longer get away with because the level of opponents I'm playing against can easily counter a weak topspin or exploit the exposed wide forehand. Analysis for me would be to identify the weak BH as something I can no longer cover up with footwork and a strong FH so long as I aim to be an aggressive looper. I've been practicing it a lot the past 2+ months and I can now execute an opening loop as well as BH counters and blocks fairly consistently and with good quality, so further analysis would be about how I can apply that in real matches.

 

[IB66]

IB66, vs Dave...

IB66, I know you won and that counts...

Understand what went on and that you should have won so damn easy, or a lot easier than you did.

Unless you give Dave a ball with the lightest of spin, he could not attack any ball long, I mean underspin long balls. You were not in any mortal danger of losing the point if you returned his serves with medium underspin, than attacked his return with a loop.

You should have served both half long and long underspin balls to him all match, you would be getting long underspin returns to heavy spin loop, or he would make error after error attacking to give you free points.

One example of this is the match winning point... you served long underspin (medium) and he tried to loop... it wasn't even close. that is how safe you were giving him long underspin if it was medium or better.

He likes to hit or punch or counter vs medium speed balls that are a bit high and definitely long... he would serve medium fast deep, mostly dead, you would either attack it for an error, or poke it back a little high to him... just what he wants for a rally. He would win a very high percentage of those. You served a number of high or long dead and long topspin... This gave Dave a lot of advantage. You kept playing right into his strengths and it cost you a lot of points that otherwise you could have and should have had the advantage and won most.

You had zero need to attack his long serves (for all those errors you made). You could have returned medium spin underspin and been totally safe from attack... and he would have given you a long underpsin to attack or he would have flailed at the ball and made an error. Then all you needed to do was heavy topspin and he blocks it out.

When you served long topspin he loved it. You should have stuck to medium underspin short, halflong, and long to setup your offense. You did that maybe half the time. You let him have extra points in the match he should not have had, you granted them to him for practically free.

The whole match went this way. You made error after error attacking his serve or poking it high to give him points or advantage in the rally. You did not use your serve to set yourself up but half the time... so you placed yourself at a disadvantage in rallies and had to play better at what he likes in order to stay even. You had to work way harder than needed.

LDM7 faced three opponents today like this (opponents who were incapable of looping a long underspin) and played pretty much the same way. (and he was very unsatisfied how it turned out) I hope he sees this and listens to anyone who asks him to play the percentages better and play to his strengths / avoid playing into opponent strengths.

I’ve been playing a little better recently, but you are 100% right, it should have been easier!! I played Dave in the 1st half of the season and won 3-1, a much more comfortable win.

I’ve been trying to get a kicker serve going with my FH punch serve, which usually has heavy backspin on it. There’s some fake motion, trying to make it look like a topspin, cock wrist back, chop down, flick upwards after impact and try and roll wrist and forearm. Which I do fairly well.
So I‘ve been chopping down and then contacting ball as I flick up. Trying to get the right feel for the upward flick contact. But it’s easy for opponents as topspin is what they are expecting!!
I need to flick up and then fake motion chop down, which is the opposite of the action I’ve learnt so far, this is proving a little awkward!!! And yet to try that action in match play.
Even so, you are right that he loved a topspin serve, especially as I didn’t vary placement either.

 

[IB66]

Yeah I think for developing players, analysis should mostly mean identifying weaknesses, then after practice how to apply those improvements. For example, due to the wide FH/BH disparity I get caught attempting a lot of extreme pivot shots which I can no longer get away with because the level of opponents I'm playing against can easily counter a weak topspin or exploit the exposed wide forehand. Analysis for me would be to identify the weak BH as something I can no longer cover up with footwork and a strong FH so long as I aim to be an aggressive looper. I've been practicing it a lot the past 2+ months and I can now execute an opening loop as well as BH counters and blocks fairly consistently and with good quality, so further analysis would be about how I can apply that in real matches.

Two wing attacker may be the way to go!!!

 

[IB66]

It has - but I'm feeling way more positive that a few weeks ago tbh even if the results haven't shown. I had changed to many things, equipment, serves, positioning - and listening to too many people. Ive gone back on a lot of things atm and I'm playing better even if results aren't going my way.

This is the way of things when it comes to Table Tennis, it takes time, stick with it!!!
Try not to change equipment!! Ha this coming from a bit of an EJ!! Mind you I’ve only tested a few rubbers over the last 12 months, and not used a different set up in matches for I suppose about a year now, and don’t intend to!!!

In a match a couple of weeks ago, I just decided to try and loop or play a topspin against ANY serve that was long. No spin serve, underspin or topspin serve.
Any long ball from an opponents serve receive.
It was totally woeful !!! After losing the first 2 games pretty easily, I played more conservatively in the 3rd and won that, lost a close 4th.

Now this could really piss off my team mates, especially if i didn’t tell them, but I let them know, I practice with them, they know what the other coaches are looking for me to do.

“Why did you refuse that opportunity?” my fellow coaches ask!! (When in position, or able to move into position and execute)

So I try, at some point you have to try, you just have to do it in matches.
You learn what you can and can’t do.
I refused that opportunity because I was not set properly, wasn’t in position etc
However judging by my current form and game play brain, there’s a lot of work to do!!!

 

[IB66]

It isn't a big deal, the reality is that people care too much about winning. Find pleasure in playing points the way you constructed them, reward yourself for adapting to the opponent's play and ball quality. Use matches as input to grow over time. Losing is a powerful motivator.

There will always be someone to beat you. I am still at a point where I enjoy playing powerful shots. I can miss playing powerful shots, it is okay with me. The most important thing is to play the way I practice.

HI NL,

”losing is a powerful motivator”

Yesterday I played in a tournament run by one of the clubs I play at, to add some spice into the mix, they invited some players from another club that play in a different league, and whose players don’t play in our league. So some fresh opposition.

I my group, I had to play a player with a national ranking of 3.


under 11 girls!!!!, she is 10yrs old.
I remember being young - give me an inch - I’ll take a mile.
So I played to win. Not in a nasty way, I just played as if she was another opponent.

She is use to winning.

About Half way through the 2nd game she was holding back the tears, you feel really awkward that you are making her feel this way. She was making loads of errors receiving serve, loads of errors playing v backspin. She was down on herself.

Show 1 bit of kindness and she would have been mercilessly putting away balls left right and centre.

When she played the other players in the group, it was a similar story, close to tears.

Boy, has she got talent, give it another year and she’ll push me hard or beat me, 2yrs and it’ll be a forgone conclusion!!!

She also played in the handicap tournament which was after the scratch one, I got a glimpse of her 1st match, she battered her opponent!!! Poor old John didn’t know what hit him, table tennis balls mainly!!!

losing can be a VERY STRONG MOTIVATOR

 

[Der_Echte]

I’ve been playing a little better recently, but you are 100% right, it should have been easier!! I played Dave in the 1st half of the season and won 3-1, a much more comfortable win.

I’ve been trying to get a kicker serve going with my FH punch serve, which usually has heavy backspin on it. There’s some fake motion, trying to make it look like a topspin, cock wrist back, chop down, flick upwards after impact and try and roll wrist and forearm. Which I do fairly well.
So I‘ve been chopping down and then contacting ball as I flick up. Trying to get the right feel for the upward flick contact. But it’s easy for opponents as topspin is what they are expecting!!
I need to flick up and then fake motion chop down, which is the opposite of the action I’ve learnt so far, this is proving a little awkward!!! And yet to try that action in match play.
Even so, you are right that he loved a topspin serve, especially as I didn’t vary placement either.

On the contrary, vs the pips player, you were playing on less than 1/2 efficiency and easily handled everything without taking undo risk. You knew he wasn't going to threaten your return and you flat hit or medium spin attacked whenever you wanted to.

 

[Der_Echte]

How’s Sergey doing!! Is he ever gonna sign up? Or is it a lost cause!!!

I gunna text him screenshot of this !!!

#Signup Sergey

 

[NextLevel]

I’ve been playing a little better recently, but you are 100% right, it should have been easier!! I played Dave in the 1st half of the season and won 3-1, a much more comfortable win.

I’ve been trying to get a kicker serve going with my FH punch serve, which usually has heavy backspin on it. There’s some fake motion, trying to make it look like a topspin, cock wrist back, chop down, flick upwards after impact and try and roll wrist and forearm. Which I do fairly well.
So I‘ve been chopping down and then contacting ball as I flick up. Trying to get the right feel for the upward flick contact. But it’s easy for opponents as topspin is what they are expecting!!
I need to flick up and then fake motion chop down, which is the opposite of the action I’ve learnt so far, this is proving a little awkward!!! And yet to try that action in match play.
Even so, you are right that he loved a topspin serve, especially as I didn’t vary placement either.

You can have a variation with your old motion where you chop down and come up but hit the ball while coming up for topspin. If you hit it at a lower height, it tends to be hard to tell the difference between that and your regular backspin punch. You can do that and then have the Craig Bryant one which seems currently alien to you but which I am sure you will master

 

[IB66]

You can have a variation with your old motion where you chop down and come up but hit the ball while coming up for topspin. If you hit it at a lower height, it tends to be hard to tell the difference between that and your regular backspin punch. You can do that and then have the Craig Bryant one which seems currently alien to you but which I am sure you will master

Yeah, at first the down up motion seemed impossible!!! But now it’s well ingrained.

 

[Der_Echte]

HI NL,

”losing is a powerful motivator”

Yesterday I played in a tournament run by one of the clubs I play at, to add some spice into the mix, they invited some players from another club that play in a different league, and whose players don’t play in our league. So some fresh opposition.

I my group, I had to play a player with a national ranking of 3.


under 11 girls!!!!, she is 10yrs old.
I remember being young - give me an inch - I’ll take a mile.
So I played to win. Not in a nasty way, I just played as if she was another opponent.

She is use to winning.

About Half way through the 2nd game she was holding back the tears, you feel really awkward that you are making her feel this way. She was making loads of errors receiving serve, loads of errors playing v backspin. She was down on herself.

Show 1 bit of kindness and she would have been mercilessly putting away balls left right and centre.

When she played the other players in the group, it was a similar story, close to tears.

Boy, has she got talent, give it another year and she’ll push me hard or beat me, 2yrs and it’ll be a forgone conclusion!!!

She also played in the handicap tournament which was after the scratch one, I got a glimpse of her 1st match, she battered her opponent!!! Poor old John didn’t know what hit him, table tennis balls mainly!!!

losing can be a VERY STRONG MOTIVATOR

IB66,

You ought to come to USA and play some tourneys... and face some 10-11 yr old boys whose fathers will FLOG them if they lose to an overweight middle-aged man !!! When they are halfway through match and losing points and games and the father is there giving the stink-face and death stare... kid under some real pressure.

Well, they won't get flogged, but will get harshly talked to and a lot of extra homework and chores and such is gunna happen. That is what some kids face if their father is from a certain culture.

How do I play vs that type? I play to win. I am wearing my uniform and showed up. It is time to quit asking questions and play as a professional.

I had a win in a tourney after I retired vs one of those after I retired... dad took him outside to the side of the building and it got real. Kid got told how embarrassing it was for a champion to lose to such as me who was hundreds of points under-rated...

 

[Der_Echte]

Yes, they piss everyone off. And it pisses them off even more when you show that it doesn't bother you. It is now commonly said in corporate world that feedback is a gift. With a gift, you have an option to accept or throw it away. Just take every point as the gift of feedback. Use it to learn and adapt. Use the match to get better at what you practiced. Maybe you practiced one to the elbow and one to the corners. Or you practiced winning the backhand to backhand rally. Or you practiced going down the line with the forehand more. Or you worked on holding the table. Or you worked on attacking serves. Judge yourself by those things.

To me, tactics become more important when you have kept your rating/level stable for about 2 years. Then you are trying to squeeze every small thing out of your game. People like Der and myself can be extremely tactically focused if we want to compete because our games are not going to change overnight. For someone like you, while tactics are important, you will probably be beating some of the players you are struggling with tactically in any way you choose in another 6 months.

LDM7,

I know you really did not like or agree with me when I said it yesterday... but what NL just articulated is exactly why I said your losses (in the manner you lost badly) were valuable data.