How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

[NextLevel]

Maybe there’s a middle ground but my typical more vertical brushed BH loop is not dangerous enough vs pushed serve return, and often comes back as a block or counter - I’m looking to capitalise on a push return and attack it to some degree When I’m in position.

No problem. Everyone has to learn this via their own experience. Your problem is not the speed of the loop. Your problem is that your loop is not sufficiently spin-oriented even when it arcs.

 

[NextLevel]

i like 7:30 💪

Nah, it is good stroke, but it is something you build up to by spinning more and more and then getting more aggressive with the timing and seeing what happens. We are watching edited video.

 

[Wrighty67]

seeing progress Wrighty, seeing progress

i particularly like the way your FH brushes the ball, generating more spin and control

the quality of the FH loop allows us to retain or gain control
of the rally (or at least staying even, not pissing the point away), with the hope of setting up a kill or opponent mistake (that's for me)

your FH stance is also improving

in no time, you'll be even more fluid & relaxed

having said all that, i am still jealous of your BH, see ya'

Thanks buddy - there is just such a lot of generous help on this thread of yours, so I am very grateful. If you work on that then improvement comes!

 

[Wrighty67]

No problem. Everyone has to learn this via their own experience. Your problem is not the speed of the loop. Your problem is that your loop is not sufficiently spin-oriented even when it arcs.

Very fair comment - walk before run I guess ;-)

 

[dingyibvs]

Nah, it is good stroke, but it is something you build up to by spinning more and more and then getting more aggressive with the timing and seeing what happens. We are watching edited video.

Isn't it a pretty standard BH loop drive? I'd imagine someone of his level can execute it pretty consistently in a multiball setting. Or do you mean that in terms of overall skills building progression, as in one needs to learn how to spin it before learning how to drive it?

 

[Brs]

Maybe there’s a middle ground but my typical more vertical brushed BH loop is not dangerous enough vs pushed serve return, and often comes back as a block or counter - I’m looking to capitalise on a push return and attack it to some degree When I’m in position.

Maybe this is what I am missing - what is the problem with an open coming back as a block? A pattern where you are the looper and opponent is only a blocker is kind of the dream. You can loop pretty much infinitely until your unwilling blocker misses. We have different definitions of attack. in my mind of someone makes a very spinny open into my pocket that was an attack and I feel most uncomfortable.

NL is 100% right that your coach sees you for hours and we see minutes, so he knows you the best. And players do develop through an attitude of "I will always try to make my best shots and miss a lot at first, and gradually miss less and less." which sounds to me like what you are going for. Personally I feel like more points are won with spin and placement than power, but obvs depends on how consistent you get at a given power level.

The main thing is you are working hard with a clear goal. And when you do that you will always improve, we are basically talking about degrees around your upward trend here, not the trend itself.

Do you guys have any advice on playing against a one sided penhold active blocker? I've been having some practices with the best semi-regular player at my nearest club, and I'm having a ton of trouble with his punchy blocks. This is particularly an issue on the BH side, because the ball comes with a lot less spin than I'm used to. I'm also having a lot of issues with him punching back topspin serves. They're not coming back super fast as I serve them reasonably low and not too long, but I seem to get a good timing on how to counter them back unlike someone with a SH grip countering or looping/flicking my serve back.

I'm thinking that I should let his returns come a bit closer to me, and loop them back instead of attempting a quick counter off the bounce. With no spin to borrow from, quick counters may be a bit difficult. But since it doesn't have much spin it shouldn't dip too low too fast and I should be able to loop it, thus applying my own spin more effectively. Maybe I could do that on the FH side as well and increase my success rate. What do you guys think?

My miss rate against him is so much higher than against other players, so there must be something about his shots that I'm not processing correctly.

I play a guy with exactly this style. My quick game close to the table is like gift-wrapped for him. I have to make a stroke and he only blocks, so he will *always* be quicker than me. Topspin and dead serves have no effect either. A couple things work (although I am still in process of solving my opponent). One is playing my SP bh into his fh. Nothing on it for him to block so it goes in the net. I believe you play double-inverted no not an option for you. Stepping back and playing more spin is the other thing. That negates his time advantage close to the table. I have to work harder to hide my pips bh from farther away, but again, not an issue for you. If I can force him back with deep spinny loops, or play sidespin (which is *much* easier from a step or two back) then he is out of his comfort zone. And since he is penhold drawing him wide to his fh with sidespin opens a big gap to his bh. He moves great as professional blockers must, but his style is not meant for off the table play. So my weakness vs his weakness is better for me than strength v strength. Which is a tough mindset to get into and I constantly forget mid-match. But I think that's the way.

 

[Wrighty67]

Maybe this is what I am missing - what is the problem with an open coming back as a block? A pattern where you are the looper and opponent is only a blocker is kind of the dream. You can loop pretty much infinitely until your unwilling blocker misses. We have different definitions of attack. in my mind of someone makes a very spinny open into my pocket that was an attack and I feel most uncomfortable.

NL is 100% right that your coach sees you for hours and we see minutes, so he knows you the best. And players do develop through an attitude of "I will always try to make my best shots and miss a lot at first, and gradually miss less and less." which sounds to me like what you are going for. Personally I feel like more points are won with spin and placement than power, but obvs depends on how consistent you get at a given power level.

The main thing is you are working hard with a clear goal. And when you do that you will always improve, we are basically talking about degrees around your upward trend here, not the trend itself.

Hi Brs

I don't disagree with your thinking, but when I watch better players they generally have both shots. In the case of a slightly higher or weaker push return, if there is an opportunity to hit the ball at the top of the bounce and with a more forward trajectory for a third or fifth ball kill then I would like to take this option. I also find that a half long ball is better when taken earlier and hit at top of bounce, over the table slightly.

When the ball is more challenging or me returning a longer serve, then I would like to choose a more brushed/open loop with a higher trajectory and prepare to counter a blocked return.

I generally feel I wait too long and hit the ball too low and too vertically when looping, and that this requires a bigger, longer stroke with less margin for error - this is surely not necessary when the ball is not a chop that is fizzing with backspin and on those occasions I want to drive over it earlier at top of bounce.

I hope that makes some sense!

 

[Brs]

Hi Brs

I don't disagree with your thinking, but when I watch better players they generally have both shots. In the case of a slightly higher or weaker push return, if there is an opportunity to hit the ball at the top of the bounce and with a more forward trajectory for a third or fifth ball kill then I would like to take this option. I also find that a half long ball is better when taken earlier and hit at top of bounce, over the table slightly.

When the ball is more challenging or me returning a longer serve, then I would like to choose a more brushed/open loop with a higher trajectory and prepare to counter a blocked return.

I generally feel I wait too long and hit the ball too low and too vertically when looping, and that this requires a bigger, longer stroke with less margin for error - this is surely not necessary when the ball is not a chop that is fizzing with backspin and on those occasions I want to drive over it earlier at top of bounce.

I hope that makes some sense!

That makes total sense, and is one of the concepts NL harped on for years - having the broadest possible range of contacts for all your strokes so you can adapt to most balls.

 

[Wrighty67]

Do you guys have any advice on playing against a one sided penhold active blocker? I've been having some practices with the best semi-regular player at my nearest club, and I'm having a ton of trouble with his punchy blocks. This is particularly an issue on the BH side, because the ball comes with a lot less spin than I'm used to. I'm also having a lot of issues with him punching back topspin serves. They're not coming back super fast as I serve them reasonably low and not too long, but I seem to get a good timing on how to counter them back unlike someone with a SH grip countering or looping/flicking my serve back.

I'm thinking that I should let his returns come a bit closer to me, and loop them back instead of attempting a quick counter off the bounce. With no spin to borrow from, quick counters may be a bit difficult. But since it doesn't have much spin it shouldn't dip too low too fast and I should be able to loop it, thus applying my own spin more effectively. Maybe I could do that on the FH side as well and increase my success rate. What do you guys think?

My miss rate against him is so much higher than against other players, so there must be something about his shots that I'm not processing correctly.

I played a guy every week from Taiwan who was at our club for about 3 months - an older guy with a very fast one sided block/punch to everything I threw at him. The only way I managed to beat him eventually was to step back and loop or drive from both sides and move him out wide with spin and placement - it seemed to take away his ability to take balls early off the bounce and beat me on pace.

 

[NextLevel]

Do you guys have any advice on playing against a one sided penhold active blocker? I've been having some practices with the best semi-regular player at my nearest club, and I'm having a ton of trouble with his punchy blocks. This is particularly an issue on the BH side, because the ball comes with a lot less spin than I'm used to. I'm also having a lot of issues with him punching back topspin serves. They're not coming back super fast as I serve them reasonably low and not too long, but I seem to get a good timing on how to counter them back unlike someone with a SH grip countering or looping/flicking my serve back.

I'm thinking that I should let his returns come a bit closer to me, and loop them back instead of attempting a quick counter off the bounce. With no spin to borrow from, quick counters may be a bit difficult. But since it doesn't have much spin it shouldn't dip too low too fast and I should be able to loop it, thus applying my own spin more effectively. Maybe I could do that on the FH side as well and increase my success rate. What do you guys think?

My miss rate against him is so much higher than against other players, so there must be something about his shots that I'm not processing correctly.

If he isn't a better player than you, the first thing is how heavy is his push and what does he do against long serves? Against such players, if they don't pivot, I start with long side backspin into the backhand. This gives me a heavy push that I can then spin up. If they can handle this, I mix up the serve with low trajectory side no-spin and side topspin to get some easy balls to put away. Usually, they might make a couple of amazing blocks, but if the spin is high, the mistakes tend to add up over time. I play mostly for fifth ball (which is a default part of my game unless the opponent is way better than me).

 

[NextLevel]

Maybe there’s a middle ground but my typical more vertical brushed BH loop is not dangerous enough vs pushed serve return, and often comes back as a block or counter - I’m looking to capitalise on a push return and attack it to some degree When I’m in position.

Test swinging at the ball in different ways once you have a stroke that spins the ball - come round the side( right then left) more or round the back more and see whether it makes certain things easier . The things you can do to the ball are limited more by your thought of what is happening than by what is actually happening. Rather than approach it as a experiment where every result of a standard stroke or modification of a standard stroke is information to be used and understood, especially with respect to reading the spin on the ball, many people approach it as a "if I don't put the ball on the table, something is wrong exercise". The latter keeps your imagination stuck. The former lets you test idea and then see what your limits are.

 

[NextLevel]

Isn't it a pretty standard BH loop drive? I'd imagine someone of his level can execute it pretty consistently in a multiball setting. Or do you mean that in terms of overall skills building progression, as in one needs to learn how to spin it before learning how to drive it?

It is but being seduced by the *speed* of it is part of the problem and it is what misleads amateurs about table tennis. I would practice at maybe 40-60% of my multiball in this relative range and then about 20-30% in both the lower end and higher end of the range of power/spin to make sure that I wasn't deceiving myself about what I can do to win matches. Because I often use suboptimal sequences, I need to be realistic.

My position on multiball is that if you treat it like weightlifting or exercise to build up body parts, it is a good/great thing. However, if you use it to build a shot that you are going to use against balls in matches, it can be deceptive in what it says to a learner about what to expect, because most people go for power and wonder why it doesn't work against match realistic balls. Shot selection is the biggest part of TT once you have standard strokes, but most adult amateurs focus on power (for good reason, but bad because it is usually generated in unsustainable ways and they usually don't have the footwork for it).

The thing is that everything about that shot that works is everything that would also work in a spinnier loop. So learn it using a spinnier/relaxed timing and then build up to and experiment with faster timings. But if you haven't built out the pathways for slower and spinnier timing, you are putting pressure on your body to play aggressively all the time if you practice that way most of the time. For older adult learners, this can be taxing and can lead to bad habits because they are seduced by the output and not the muscle sequence that led to it.

 

[Der_Echte]

Hi dingyibvs,

Try to serve low tight underspin, get underspin return, then spin heavy,

If he does not attack your push on your serve receive, AND you do not quite read the ball AND he is not inclined to attack your push, then give underspin on that push and attack the next ball with spin.

 

[Der_Echte]

LDM7 had a third consecutive night of discovery and performance and growth.

He got to see up close again how to get to the point of attack (especially on Sergey Tsos real heavy slow topspin and medium loops), hew SAW what was happening, REALIZED what was going on and what he could and should do... he saw chances of how to turn defense show into an offensive opportunity by the same means - see and realize what is going on and take the initiative.

The later the night went, his FH attacks vs underspin (some of them Sergey heavy) landing percentage went past 80%... and a number of them were slower and heavier and placed to surprise Sergey Tsos.

So many good signs LDM7 is internalizing process and how to see the action and make decisions... all towards playing percentage table tennis.

 

[Der_Echte]

Test swinging at the ball in different ways once you have a stroke that spins the ball - come round the side( right then left) more or round the back more and see whether it makes certain things easier . The things you can do to the ball are limited more by your thought of what is happening than by what is actually happening. Rather than approach it as a experiment where every result of a standard stroke or modification of a standard stroke is information to be used and understood, especially with respect to reading the spin on the ball, many people approach it as a "if I don't put the ball on the table, something is wrong exercise". The latter keeps your imagination stuck. The former lets you test idea and then see what your limits are.

YES.

I call this growing by GOOFING OFF, which is really a discovery mode without pressure.

 

[dingyibvs]

Hi dingyibvs,

Try to serve low tight underspin, get underspin return, then spin heavy,

If he does not attack your push on your serve receive, AND you do not quite read the ball AND he is not inclined to attack your push, then give underspin on that push and attack the next ball with spin.

Thanks, I'm gonna try that! I usually want to aggressive so I want to push as little as possible, but I think I'm gonna serve primarily underspin to him, then push long to his BH if I don't like the underspin return back. He's a one sided Cpen player and he's older, so I'm gonna get an underspin ball back, most likely a long one, if I push long to his BH.

 

[Der_Echte]

Thanks, I'm gonna try that! I usually want to aggressive so I want to push as little as possible, but I think I'm gonna serve primarily underspin to him, then push long to his BH if I don't like the underspin return back. He's a one sided Cpen player and he's older, so I'm gonna get an underspin ball back, most likely a long one, if I push long to his BH.

Look at it like this... if you are not certain where the 3rd ball is going and what is on it, then playing aggressive vs that ball is gunna get you in big trouble fast... like you maybe make it 25% of the time... so you push it deep, and if the other guy doesn't show wants to or can attack, you risked nothing and now have a ball coming at you that you can see better and are ready and willing to attack... big difference, you will land well over 50% of those... so you doubled your odds on the rally.

That is an example of tactically playing percentage table tennis.

I over-simplified it, but the principle is true and valid.

This is an example of the one push mentality... look to attack, it ball looks bad, push once and then attack return.

 

[NextLevel]

Look at it like this... if you are not certain where the 3rd ball is going and what is on it, then playing aggressive vs that ball is gunna get you in big trouble fast... like you maybe make it 25% of the time... so you push it deep, and if the other guy doesn't show wants to or can attack, you risked nothing and now have a ball coming at you that you can see better and are ready and willing to attack... big difference, you will land well over 50% of those... so you doubled your odds on the rally.

That is an example of tactically playing percentage table tennis.

I over-simplified it, but the principle is true and valid.

This is an example of the one push mentality... look to attack, it ball looks bad, push once and then attack return.

Even Ma Long and Timo Boll don't attack all the time, it is just a bit harder to them back off compared to us.

 

[Der_Echte]

Thanks, I'm gonna try that! I usually want to aggressive so I want to push as little as possible, but I think I'm gonna serve primarily underspin to him, then push long to his BH if I don't like the underspin return back. He's a one sided Cpen player and he's older, so I'm gonna get an underspin ball back, most likely a long one, if I push long to his BH.

Yes, if he doesn't punish your first push, that push can setup your offense if the first ball (3rd ball) doesn't look so appetizing. You are taking little risk and increasing your chances.

 

[Der_Echte]

BTW dingyibvs, what club you play at if I never asked? Maybe I cause trouble there one day on a travel adventure one day.