How to minimize the time between second bounce and third bounce on the serve?

[canonFH]

I have observed that some pro players' service has this one feature where it drops really fast after the second bounce. I had a chance recently to watch a couple of women pro players train their serve and this is what fascinated me the most. I have been trying various things but am not able to recreate it.

Example vid:

Any tips that will help to achieve this?

 

[jk1980]

There are only two factors that you can influence for the serve to make the ball quickly bounce a second time on the opponents half:
- spin (topspin should have a lower through of the table, hence hit the table a little faster). The type of table surface will decide how much your spin actually matters in this equation (especially since the amounts of topspin achievable with a serve are not even a half of what a topspin loop would create), but it will still be relatively low compared to the second point:
- height of your serve (which has a way greater impact). The force with which the gravity pulls is always the same for two balls bouncing on the same maximum height. The pro players have serves where the highest point of the ball is probably 20cm over the table which makes it next bounce only reach a height of approximately 15cm (which is of course now taking less time to hit the table again). Having done some tests on my table, the ball will approximately bounce a round 60-70% of the height of the prior bounce.

If your service makes the ball have a trajectory whereby your ball is at 30cm or higher, then of course the second bounce will be higher and it will take longer to hit the table again

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Any tips that will help to achieve this?

contact the ball net height or below net height in your serve

 

[Dr Evil]

Nice video. Her serve isn't dropping any faster than yours, it's just dropping a shorter distance because she keeps the bounces as low as possible. String a ribbon from one net post to the other (clamp dowels to the posts to give you extra height), leaving just enough space for the ball to fit between the top of the net and the bottom of the ribbon. Practice serving though the gap.

 

[canonFH]

Thanks for the responses. I was trying different types of spins and placements on my side of the table but completely forgot about the height. I think I already contact the ball pretty low, but my serves are definitely a bit high. I will work on reducing the height tomorrow and will report back the results.

 

[canonFH]

There are only two factors that you can influence for the serve to make the ball quickly bounce a second time on the opponents half:
- spin (topspin should have a lower through of the table, hence hit the table a little faster). The type of table surface will decide how much your spin actually matters in this equation (especially since the amounts of topspin achievable with a serve are not even a half of what a topspin loop would create), but it will still be relatively low compared to the second point:
- height of your serve (which has a way greater impact). The force with which the gravity pulls is always the same for two balls bouncing on the same maximum height. The pro players have serves where the highest point of the ball is probably 20cm over the table which makes it next bounce only reach a height of approximately 15cm (which is of course now taking less time to hit the table again). Having done some tests on my table, the ball will approximately bounce a round 60-70% of the height of the prior bounce.

If your service makes the ball have a trajectory whereby your ball is at 30cm or higher, then of course the second bounce will be higher and it will take longer to hit the table again

My side-topspin serves definitely stay lower but the distance covered between the second and third bounce is a lot higher than just sidespin or side-backspin. It appears to me that it actually gives the opponent more time due to this.

 

[jk1980]

My side-topspin serves definitely stay lower but the distance covered between the second and third bounce is a lot higher than just sidespin or side-backspin. It appears to me that it actually gives the opponent more time due to this.

Your impression is physically very unlikely. The force that drags the ball down is the same independent of its lateral velocity. So the ball that drops straight down from 30cm will hit the table at the same time like the ball that is hit laterally from 30cm, regardless how much distance it travels.

 

[canonFH]

Your impression is physically very unlikely. The force that drags the ball down is the same independent of its lateral velocity. So the ball that drops straight down from 30cm will hit the table at the same time like the ball that is hit laterally from 30cm, regardless how much distance it travels.

True, I guess I forgot high school physics. It just may be my perception. I need to record it and figure out what actually happens.

Because we are talking about the second bounce, so we can't ignore what happened before that. It also may be that I have a thicker contact when serving topspin or the first bounce it at a different position. Regardless, thanks for the explanation. I now have many more things to work on.

 

[firetack]

Also land the ball as close to the net as possible on your side of the table when serving

 

[ttarc]

Your impression is physically very unlikely. The force that drags the ball down is the same independent of its lateral velocity. So the ball that drops straight down from 30cm will hit the table at the same time like the ball that is hit laterally from 30cm, regardless how much distance it travels.

Some of the topspin is converted to forward motion. How much depends a lot on the table's surface and the ball used.

 

[jk1980]

Some of the topspin is converted to forward motion.

Yes, but forward movement is not upward momentum, so it would only change the distance travelled horizontally, which again should not affect time until the next bohnce. The magnus effect could theoretically influence that time, but since topspin in serves is severely gimped by serve mechanics I don't think the effect is even noticeable by humans.
In topspin loops we know the scenario where the ball bounces with a flatter arc, so that the opponent misses it, but there we are talking about well over 110 rps, while I would estimate the most topspin rotation on a serve to be less than a third of it.

 

[igorponger]

They would call this a ghost serve. Give it a try, my darling one.

 

[canonFH]

So, I tried training by tying a thread above the net. I got the hang of it after about half an hour or so. I would say just reducing the height has elevated my serve by about two levels. I got a lot more direct service points during my matches with my regular partners. But I am also dumping a couple of serves in the net right now, and a LOT of let serves.

Reducing the height though has one major side-effect. The topspin serves travels even more horizontally, and it has become a bit easier to read. People take it late and are able to keep the returns quite low as well. Same with backspin, it is easier to push short and keep it low, effectively taking some bite out of my 3rd balls. I am getting a lot more returns that are not as attackable and am forced to push.

I guess I have to upgrade my 3rd ball as well, or move the attack to 5th.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

So, I tried training by tying a thread above the net. I got the hang of it after about half an hour or so. I would say just reducing the height has elevated my serve by about two levels. I got a lot more direct service points during my matches with my regular partners. But I am also dumping a couple of serves in the net right now, and a LOT of let serves.

Reducing the height though has one major side-effect. The topspin serves travels even more horizontally, and it has become a bit easier to read. People take it late and are able to keep the returns quite low as well. Same with backspin, it is easier to push short and keep it low, effectively taking some bite out of my 3rd balls. I am getting a lot more returns that are not as attackable and am forced to push.

I guess I have to upgrade my 3rd ball as well, or move the attack to 5th.

Serve is a very high level task and one of the most difficult skills to master.

I had to train 1 hours a day, 7 days a week for few years to get to my level and I am still very low compared to much stronger players.

it isn't only about height, but rather to control the power on the ball. How to generate a very strong spin shot, but allowing the ball to be light. The placement is also so important.
Or to add in fake action to trick your opponent on what you are serving.
There is the contact point trick and then there is follow through trick.

keeping the ball low means you won't be killed 1st ball by stronger opponents.
But ultimately, keeping the ball low is really just one of many things you need to do well.

 

[canonFH]

Serve is a very high level task and one of the most difficult skills to master.

I had to train 1 hours a day, 7 days a week for few years to get to my level and I am still very low compared to much stronger players.

it isn't only about height, but rather to control the power on the ball. How to generate a very strong spin shot, but allowing the ball to be light. The placement is also so important.
Or to add in fake action to trick your opponent on what you are serving.
There is the contact point trick and then there is follow through trick.

keeping the ball low means you won't be killed 1st ball by stronger opponents.
But ultimately, keeping the ball low is really just one of many things you need to do well.

I agree. I have been training my pendulum serve for about an year, avge of 5 hours/week. It is pretty good for my level since my game is basically 3rd ball attack.

But sometimes, an idea propels your serve to the next level. Training high toss made my contact point much better and significantly improved my serves, even though I don't use high toss in matches. Focusing on height has done a similar thing.

Do you think it is worth it to work on deception early on if the goal is to improve and not just to win matches?

 

[Brozi]

Do you think it is worth it to work on deception early on if the goal is to improve and not just to win matches?

Not the one you asked, but in my view it's better to focus on developing rallyplay rather than killer serves. Of course, different people have a different point of view, but I focused way too much on serves, and thus I'm not mentally, as well as physically used to long rallies, which is why I tend to avoid them.

My advice is, focus on learning to do what you want with the serve, and leave the deception for later.

 

[canonFH]

Not the one you asked, but in my view it's better to focus on developing rallyplay rather than killer serves. Of course, different people have a different point of view, but I focused way too much on serves, and thus I'm not mentally, as well as physically used to long rallies, which is why I tend to avoid them.

My advice is, focus on learning to do what you want with the serve, and leave the deception for later.

Yes, I was also thinking along similar lines. At this point, I want my opponent to be able to read my serve and return it so I can practice what comes after that. But I also don't want to get too used to my current serve action that I need a huge amount of effort to incorporate some deception, or need to change it entirely, later.

 

[Brozi]

Yes, I was also thinking along similar lines. At this point, I want my opponent to be able to read my serve and return it so I can practice what comes after that. But I also don't want to get too used to my current serve action that I need a huge amount of effort to incorporate some deception, or need to change it entirely, later.

Thats an entirely valid point, but (at least for me) the serve is the easiest thing to improve in tabletennis. You just get a box of balls and serve, trying to get the action you want. You just need to know how the stroke should look like, and how far away it should be from the body to maximise deception. Improving rally play is much, much more difficult.

 

[latej]

At this point, I want my opponent to be able to read my serve and return it so I can practice what comes after that.

Exactly. The movement right after serve in anticipation what may come is important. E.g. sometime I serve short top spin serve, and forget to move back (perhaps because I don't move back that much if it is short under spin), and then I don't have enough time to stand properly for attack... And that goes for all types of serves... Generally I prefer to make more than less space...

But I also don't want to get too used to my current serve action that I need a huge amount of effort to incorporate some deception, or need to change it entirely, later.

Of course, you can work on adding deception gradually... the middle way ;-)

 

[Egon]

Exactly. The movement right after serve in anticipation what may come is important. E.g. sometime I serve short top spin serve, and forget to move back (perhaps because I don't move back that much if it is short under spin), and then I don't have enough time to stand properly for attack... And that goes for all types of serves... Generally I prefer to make more than less space...



Of course, you can work on adding deception gradually... the middle way ;-)

You can practice leg exits the third ball after the serve, banana, forehand flick and attack from both sides without a partner, if you put a return board on the table. As a return board you can use regular MDF without any coatings, it works great. The only downside is the impossibility of getting a bottom spin, top spin and a flat ball - no problem. Personally, this helped me a lot in improvement the banana and forehand flick technique.