How to play against flat hitters.

[OldschoolPenholder]

Der,

By "OP" I take it you meant "original poster" and not me

Mind blown at some of your tips! thank you!

"After a hit or two suddenly take the ball off the bounce."

This is one of the tactics/techniques I use and was taught back in da day... I call it a "fast hit" ... one can also do the opposite, smash off the bounce and then smash regular bpunce, generally not as effective as the first tactic mentioned

 

[Archosaurus]

Der's post really shows how complex the game can be even at a "relatively low level" compared to what's possible, and just how many options there's available! Just gotta realize them. OP can probably do all of those.

 

[Der_Echte]

Der,

By "OP" I take it you meant "original poster" and not me

Mind blown at some of your tips! thank you!

"After a hit or two suddenly take the ball off the bounce."

This is one of the tactics/techniques I use and was taught back in da day... I call it a "fast hit" ... one can also do the opposite, smash off the bounce and then smash regular bpunce, generally not as effective as the first tactic mentioned

Yes, OP in forum talk means Original Poster.

EJ means Equipment Junkie

I gave many suggestions, but half of them may be difficult to implement. If the opponent is better, the quality of their ball is not gunna make it easy to use half my suggestions.

Still, one can control how soon they take the ball off the bounce and control their hand pressure in theory, plus change the depth/direction of the ball, and also how they vary the receive, even if they are only pushing the serve.

 

[Sakumi]

OP,

Let's just say the flat hitter is a little better level than you from what you say and you seem to also be making it easy for him in a few ways. Your job is to not make it easy for him, he may still win if he is much better, but you can still perform way better vs this player if you think a little and change a few tactics.

*** No 1 thing is to not give them a ball over the net height right to their FH power zone ***

Many ways to get this done...

- Make them move.
... - Use a hookshot if you can.
... - Soften your grip at impact and then impact the ball halfway on the side and whip through medium power. This will have some corkscrew and bounce away from them.
... - Hit the ball down their BH line by waiting for ball to come into impact zone some more - do not use open wrist.
... - Hit really fast or really heavy topspin right at his armpit. he must move. I he cant see it coming, he is in trouble.

- Change the depth of the ball. this isn't just how shallow you land it, but also low it is by the time ball arrives to him.
... - If you can, make ball go only halflong.
... - If ball is landing deep with a little pace, making a double bounce isn't practical. Instead, greatly soften hand at impact. ball will not kick as much to him. This will wreck his timing.
... - Use a loose wrist, 1/3 to 1/2 power and make a soft very heavy topspin that lands very shallow. Those are hard to attack and by time it reaches him, it is low.

- Be unpredictable. TTD Members and I discussed some of this already.
... - Use different parts of hitting zone depth at impact to disguise where you are hitting ball.
... - Use different (think much softer) grip pressure at impact after you hit 1 or 2 like normal.
... - After a hit or two suddenly take the ball off the bounce
... - Stay close to table and use BH for balls you normally step around. Take off the bounce. BH is very unpredictable to see.
... - Give a no spin ball or take away a lot of your spin suddenly.
... - Use a very heavy push, then a very light push. Punish the push-popup if he pushes again.
... - Change your receive. Even if it is a safe push, change depths, directions and pace. Try to take serve off the bounce.

That's a lot to do Thanks, very helpful

 

[RajaLoopah]

In our province most of the players are hitters they value the speed over spin. Usually they serve float, sidespin, or weak chop for the ball to pop up and hit the ball for a winning smash. To play against flat hitters there is only one thing to do, and that is to play against them no kidding. Most of the flat hitters are adept in blocking and "killing" (nullify the spin) the ball. For when you push a dead ball it might pop or fall off the bat.

For me I wait for their weak serves and attack it via spinny loop or drive away from them. If the ball is short I just chop it short and wait for the moment they kill it and attack the ball. I also give them deep heavy chop occasionally for their technique is best suited for weak balls. When I attack and they block I bombard em with spinny controlled loops for that is one of the things they hate the most. One final note Train your consistency in looping,footwork and try to return the ball even if it is smashed works 50/50 hahahaha

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I still will contend that, based on the information presented, the biggest thing OP needs to do is focus on some drills that get him ready to counter after his flip.

This was one of the training drills that this coach Erol Young used quite often for training. He trained Tahl Leibovitz and Dave Fernandez. Dave got to be 2600+ before he decided to quit TT and get a job. Tahl in his 40s, despite being handicapped is still over 2400.

That drill of flipping and getting ready to counter the return is huge for upping the level of most players.

Ripping flips is not easy because flips can be dead, under, heavy top, fast, slow. And they are always weird. So practicing the part of the drill where you counter the flip is is great practice too. And when you are flipping and getting ready for the counter after, you get good practice looping a ball like that on sheer reflex and timing. And that improves your ability to counter whatever comes back at you when you are under pressure.


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[ttmonster]

My strategy against flat hitters go like this .. they are flat hitters because they don't like spin. So give them heavy spin serves , fast ,low , spinny and long . If they can't loop , the will push , if they push, unless they are some sneaky guy with a dead tenergy , it won't be a double bounce short push, it will be long, if its long, start looping , vary your placement , and spin. Even if they smash a few your spinny loops, don't stop doing it , just vary the placement and spin. Mostly , you will get free points from your serve if they can't loop. If they can loop and can flat hit, you are dealing with a monster of higher CP , you need to have other strategies. At this point, I would say focus on the spin on your serve and loop . With plastic ball it has become easier to smash spinny loops at our level but still its not that easy if you can move the player around. Serve short, loop heavy on the diagnoally opposite corner .. stuff like that should make him uncomfortable ...

 

[Archosaurus]

Ripping flips is not easy because flips can be dead, under, heavy top, fast, slow.

Somewhat offtopic, but how exactly does one perform a quality backspin flick? Can it be done from the forehand side?

I can see it being done by either brushing down before the whip, or more likely brushing down after the whip, with the hand moving down at the end. Although I'm probably missing the best method.

What's the right way, and exactly how much spin are we looking at here?

 

[Der_Echte]

I wouldn't call it a flip. You would need some down motion at impact... that shot would be more like a punch or a fast push impacted at net.

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[Archosaurus]

I wouldn't call it a flip. You would need some down motion at impact... that shot would be more like a punch or a fast push impacted at net.

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So basically a downwards punch from a cocked wrist starting position? I assume the spin potential is not that high and it's for deception. Am I wrong?

 

[ttmonster]

My understanding it depends on the the forehand rubber as well. There are certain balls you can flick with tacky rubber which is not possible with non tacky rubbers. However, its not a stroke that is supposed to be spin oriented , especially when you are going for the classic flip. There are other versions , like the soft flip which has versions where fade is added or topspin is added to make it more consistent, but then the focus is on placement and its not a "flip kill" ..

So basically a downwards punch from a cocked wrist starting position? I assume the spin potential is not that high and it's for deception. Am I wrong?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Oh, this is too funny, Archosaurus, trying to figure out, through theory, how you do a backspin flip.

Well, I am not going to get in the way of that freight train. hahaha.

What I was shown was with the BH, not the FH and Michael Landers did it and smiled and said, "backspin flip!!!" as I tried to attack it only to have my shot go straight down. I was mystified.

It is with the motion of the sidespin flip that sometimes gets called banana. Not the topspin flip that ZJK uses but the one where you come up the side. Well, the motion is circular kind of like a pendulum serve. If you catch from under before you get to the side of the ball, you can make it side-under that curves towards the your right and your opponent's left. If you catch it as you are going down before you go under and up the other side, you can make it backspin with the sidespin that would curve towards the your left and your opponent's right.

Now, I am not going to say I can do it. But when Mike did it, it was nasty. And there was no doubt that it was backspin and there was no doubt that it was a flip. So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

I've played recently a flat hitter with short pimpled player twice. We share each a 3-1 victory.

What made the difference was when I was able to receive correctly with spin and keep the ball low. Slow spinny attacks with placement are more effective than fast attacks.

Be extra careful when receiving long serves, or that's one of my weaknesses sometimes I get surprised. Always put a bit of spin in those returns. Not easy but else you'll get a strong flat hit next...


. If you cannot see the spin in a short serve better try to flick or push aggressively than receive short because returning a no spin ball serve would make the ball pop-up and an easy kill for the hitter.

If I can take the upper hand in serve and receive game , a lot of problems are solved.

My game is to stay at the table. I have confidence in my block and counters but it's more difficult against these players.

 

[ttmonster]

I thought he was asking about forehand flip ...

Oh, this is too funny, Archosaurus, trying to figure out, through theory, how you do a backspin flip.

Well, I am not going to get in the way of that freight train. hahaha.

What I was shown was with the BH, not the FH and Michael Landers did it and smiled and said, "backspin flip!!!" as I tried to attack it only to have my shot go straight down. I was mystified.

It is with the motion of the sidespin flip that sometimes gets called banana. Not the topspin flip that ZJK uses but the one where you come up the side. Well, the motion is circular kind of like a pendulum serve. If you catch from under before you get to the side of the ball, you can make it side-under that curves towards the your right and your opponent's left. If you catch it as you are going down before you go under and up the other side, you can make it backspin with the sidespin that would curve towards the your left and your opponent's right.

Now, I am not going to say I can do it. But when Mike did it, it was nasty. And there was no doubt that it was backspin and there was no doubt that it was a flip. So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I thought he was asking about forehand flip ...

Well FH flips are pretty weird too though.

But whatever Archo was talking about, I am not sure what SciFi flick it came out of.

 

[ttmonster]

For me forehand flips are more difficult to execute ... there is a lot of leeway with backhand flip

Well FH flips are pretty weird too though.

But whatever Archo was talking about, I am not sure what SciFi flick it came out of.

 

[Shuki]

For me forehand flips are more difficult to execute ... there is a lot of leeway with backhand flip

Forehand backspin flips are super hard to execute.

Reminds me of the time I got my first side-under-chop-loop (with the forehand of course). Oh the memories

 

[ttmonster]

Lol @Shuki ... I was being serious ... I thought he was asking about forehand flips and the different kind of forehand flips ...

on a lighter note I do agree with you side under chop loops are very difficult to execute .. and again on a serious note I once had a friend who traveled to our part of the town once in a while from NY , he was a consultant in semiconductors and ex professor and he used to show me fake no spin loops , its very difficult to read ... had amazing serves and third ball attacks inspite of growing cataract in his eyes , he could guess the spin and trajectory of the ball by looking at the hand movement of the opponent , any or at all any points I would get would be from loops with contacts under the table ... had a lot of fun playing with him , wonder what he is doing these days ... I think his first name was Peter ..

Forehand backspin flips are super hard to execute.

Reminds me of the time I got my first side-under-chop-loop (with the forehand of course). Oh the memories

 

[Archosaurus]

Hah, Carl. I discovered the shot months ago on my backhand side when I was screwing around, but wasn't too sure if it was an actual thing because the quality was relatively low. Then maybe due to a cognitive bias, I started hearing of "backspin flicks". Now I saw it again and was just curious how it's "supposed to be performed".

I was talking about grabbing it before coming up, with the curving to right from hitter sidespin. What the HELL does the opposite sidespin from the backhand look like? Must have been one hell of a surprise to have to return that.

 

[Sakumi]

Hah, Carl. I discovered the shot months ago on my backhand side when I was screwing around, but wasn't too sure if it was an actual thing because the quality was relatively low. Then maybe due to a cognitive bias, I started hearing of "backspin flicks". Now I saw it again and was just curious how it's "supposed to be performed".

I was talking about grabbing it before coming up, with the curving to right from hitter sidespin. What the HELL does the opposite sidespin from the backhand look like? Must have been one hell of a surprise to have to return that.

I don't flick on my FH because I cannot do it. I always push.