Ittf stupiiiiiiiiiid ranking

[Atas Newton]

Btw I think you're factually wrong in interpreting the new system, NextLevel. Consider the following situation: Dima plays exactly 8 events in 2018 and Hungarian Open is among them. This way the result he'd get there would've been guaranteed to be counted towards his ranking. And I don't think playing "only" 8 events is an unreasonble scenario. Moreover, Dima could participate in, say, 10 events but in 2 of those he could do worse than at Hungarian Open. And again it would make the top 8 list.

 

[NextLevel]

so he doesn't even need to cherry pick and his ranking is still protected? Isn't that even more evil? So much for the incentive for players to participate more I guess.

I give up. The point is that you can play any number of events you want but only the best 8 results get used to calculate your ranking. So if he had played 10 in the past year, the ranking only includes the best 8. He has to play at least 8. He can have 10 and have 2 bad events. If he has a bad event he has incentive to play more. If he has a good event he has incentive to play less. But he has to meet the 8 and if he doesn't meet the 8, he had incentive to play anything or his ranking is going to drop because he doesn't have enough qualifying events. Or he will have only 7 and 7 will give him a large gap vs someone who has 8.

So Dima has simply decided to rest and will play again later. But if he wanted to replace a result in his last 8, which he would have had incentive to with a bad performance at the grand tour finals, he would have played Hungary.

Is my point any clearer or are you just trolling me like I am trolling rainneverever?

 

[NextLevel]

Btw I think you're factually wrong in interpreting the new system, NextLevel. Consider the following situation: Dima plays exactly 8 events in 2018 and Hungarian Open is among them. This way the result he'd get there would've been guaranteed to be counted towards his ranking. And I don't think playing "only" 8 events is an unreasonble scenario. Moreover, Dima could participate in, say, 10 events but in 2 of those he could do worse than at Hungarian Open. And again it would make the top 8 list.

Check out my last post and see if you get it. If not, I truly give up. What you don't realize is that he could play 7. You can't hurt yourself by playing more unless it results in injury.

 

[rainneverever]

Winner of Hungarian Open gets 1800 points. The lowest of Dima's best 8 results in Jan 2018 ranking was 1800 (winner of India Open in Feb 2017, Euro Cup winner in Feb 2017, WTTC R16 in May 2017 and Bulgaria Open winner in Aug 2017). If Dima played Hungarian Open, even he win, he will not get more ranking points for Feb 2018. However, in April 2018, Dima's 2017 India Open and Euro Cup points will get expired. So he has to attend Qatar Open and German Open in March 2018, otherwise he will not have 8 ranking results.

so he doesn't even need to cherry pick and his ranking is still protected? Isn't that even more evil? So much for the incentive for players to participate more I guess.

 

[Atas Newton]

Lol I'm not trolling you I swear. I still disagree. It doesn't make any sense when an athlete in the best form of his life refuses to play. And I don't consider this:

If he has a good event he has incentive to play less

to be a healthy mechanism.

 

[NextLevel]

The first edition of the new ranking was made in Dec 2016 and released in late Mar 2017. At that time, WTTC and WTTTC points are valid for 2 years with 100% in the first year and 50% in the second year; OG and OG team points are valid for 4 years with 100% in the first year and 75%, 50%, 25% in the following years.
The second edition of new ranking was made in late Oct 2017. WTTC and WTTTC points are 100% for 2 years. OG and OG team points are valid for 1 year ONLY. At this point, I can argue that CNT understood the new ranking system when it was first released and ML/DN could take advantage of OG champion points. But the removal of OG points in 2nd year was a sudden and CNT could barely do anything.
There was a further change of the new ranking in late Dec 2017. Participation for WTTC now is 25, for Plat Tour 20 and Tour 15. Not sure to whom these little points help.

Hmmm... This is a lot of change... sounds very suspicious because I can see the bias...

Yeah... ITTF has a lot at stake here... I hope what they are trying to do works but it is a bit fishy...

 

[NextLevel]

Lol I'm not trolling you I swear. I still disagree. It doesn't make any sense when an athlete in the best form of his life refuses to play. And I don't consider this:

to be a healthy mechanism.

It was much worse under the old system. So I think you would agree that reducing that incentive is a move is the right direction. So you can disagree with me but if you really understood, you would see that in that particular regard the new system.is better.

 

[Atas Newton]

I mean ITTF crippling the Chinese is no conspiracy theory. Remember when 3 athletes from a country could take part in OG? Yeah. The only thing to argue is the intentions.

 

[NextLevel]

I mean ITTF crippling the Chinese is no conspiracy theory. Remember when 3 athletes from a country could take part in OG? Yeah. The only thing to argue is the intentions.

It happens in gymnastics too and a few other events. Olympic budgets of many countries are determined by their probability of winning a medal. If fewer countries consider table tennis a viable sport to send and prepare athletes for, it loses its popularity as an Olympic sport. Unfortunate but the fact of life. Which do you prefer, fewer countries sending athletes to the Olympics for table tennis and table tennis being no longer an Olympic sport or China winning one less bronze medal on average?

 

[Atas Newton]

You're overdramatizing the potential damage. And I don't think what happens in gymnastics has any more noble reasons than in table tennis. Some federations are just not okay with how 10 athletes from a single country are all better than the top man they have. OG is a sporting competition, not a charity. I honestly couldn't care less if Trinidad and Tobago (nothing personal guys) fails to send anyone to the Olympic table tennis tournament. What I care about is that those who deserve it get the chance to fight for the gold in what may be a once in lifetime opportunity. I was extremely pissed when Fan Zhendong was left out of the team and it wasn't ZJK's or LGL's fault, it was precisely because powers that be had decided that China will do just fine without another bronze.

 

[NextLevel]

You're overdramatizing the potential damage. And I don't think what happens in gymnastics has any more noble reasons than in table tennis. Some federations are just not okay with how 10 athletes from a single country are all better than the top man they have. OG is a sporting competition, not a charity. I honestly couldn't care less if Trinidad and Tobago (nothing personal guys) fails to send anyone to the Olympic table tennis tournament. What I care about is that those who deserve it get the chance to fight for the gold in what may be a once in lifetime opportunity. I was extremely pissed when Fan Zhendong was left out of the team and it wasn't ZJK's or LGL's fault, it was precisely because powers that be had decided that China will do just fine without another bronze.

Not over dramatizing at all. Look at how Matilda Ekholm for example was not sent to the Olympic games in 2012 when she qualified because she didn't have a chance at a medal - she went in 2016 because Sweden qualified as a team and had an outside chance at a team medal. Or look at how Germany doesn't send many qualified athletes because they don't have medal chances and they continually evaluate the competitiveness and success of their teams in TT because of accountability.

In any case, your claim that I am overdramatizing is a form of ad hominem isn't it? My point here is that when you have value differences, the ultimate resolution is ad hominem. You think my motivations are wrong so you are calling them overly dramatic. But they are as grounded in facts as yours. Don't take the fact that TT is an Olympic sport for granted, sports go through periodic reviews and they can be removed or have more events depending on popularity.

You might not think OG is a charity but that is not how it characterizes some of its ideals.

 

[Persistence TT]

so he doesn't even need to cherry pick and his ranking is still protected? Isn't that even more evil? So much for the incentive for players to participate more I guess.

dima did play a lot this year, that is the difference. isnt it annoying that for a whole year full of pro tours the top chinese are cherry picking only the platinum event? I remember 2009 up to 2012 the cnt was in transition period and it was great because u had ma long zhang jike xx wang hao ma lin and wang liqin attending even small pro tours like austria danish slovenia and hungary open.

When the coaching staff saw that the big 3 xx zjk and ml got they necessary experience and got enough ranking points they stopped sending them and just played in big tours just enough to keep high ranking. They even didnt participate in the grand finals (which is considered ''big'' and ''prestigious'' tour among some fans here) and sometimes when they did they were totally disinterested (2013 grand finals zjk ml xx played like it was an obligation)

Fans like excitement passion and competitive spirit (all of these were gone after 2012), of course we dont expect ma long to be fired up all the time but we expect to see good fights and interesting matches.

The chinese are indeed the best and yes the rest of the world must catch up to them but its degrading to see athletes playing in the world stage like its a 9-5 job. 4 events are quite adequate like in tennis for TT to be more interesting again plus one world champ and world cup every year

Rainenever is indeed a great analyst but does not examine the other side of the coin. It would be pretty interesting to count how many times the chinese didnt participate in pro tours on purpose or withdrew in order to protect their own schedule.

If it werent for t2apac this year the case would still be same shit different day

 

[Atas Newton]

In any case, your claim that I am overdramatizing is a form of ad hominem isn't it?

not at all. I was referring to your concern that table tennis would've been excluded from OG had the 3 athteles per country rule not been changed. That's objectively a massive exagerration. There's no precedents to warrant such fears and there've been no talks about a possibility of such a decision. Maybe there are some connotations with the word "dramatize" that I'm not aware of, in that case I chose it wrongly. I'm not a native English speaker, so some slack could be cut.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Actually, I thought that was exactly what was at stake. And I thought the IOC (International Olympic Committee) is who established the rule of ONLY 2 players per country in the singles event and a third for team.

My memory of when that rule came down the pipe was that, ITTF could accept the mandate of the IOC or TT could stop being an Olympic sport.

ITTF doesn’t really have much say in how the IOC decides how different Olympic events are orchestrated. And IOC is the same governing body that made the same basic rule for gymnastics.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[NextLevel]

not at all. I was referring to your concern that table tennis would've been excluded from OG had the 3 athteles per country rule not been changed. That's objectively a massive exagerration. There's no precedents to warrant such fears and there've been no talks about a possibility of such a decision. Maybe there are some connotations with the word "dramatize" that I'm not aware of, in that case I chose it wrongly. I'm not a native English speaker, so some slack could be cut.

You miss the point - declining funding for participation in a sport is directly related to the ability of countries to win medals in the sport. If you want to improve the probability of other countries thinking they have a chance to win a medal, just make sure that one country can't win all the medals. You don't realize that Dima's bronze helped TT funding in Germany. It isn't everything and it has its limits, but it is better than you just believing that it has no impact.

And no, it is not a massive exaggeration - it is about you realizing the kind of politics that go on when a country is considering whether to fund participation in a sport and how such decisions are made. And then how those decisions also translate to whether the sport gets support to remain as an Olympic event. It's no accident that China has been trying to suggest extra events for other countries to win like Mixed Doubles etc. while it is willing to accept a quota on the number of events a country can enter. In the end, it is about making the sport more popular. You can decide to wait until it is too late before making changes.

 

[Xylit]

A question about when results expire for WR count.

1. I have often heard the "one year" thing. Does that mean Ovtcharov's win at India Open in February 2017 won't count for March 2018 ranking anymore?

2. WTTTC count longer I think, seeing the Chinese results?! How long? And why do team events even count for a player's individual world ranking position?

3. Where can I find the rules about the new system?

 

[Xylit]

By the way anybody already noticed that Germany is #1 at men's team ranking as well

 

[Atas Newton]

I realize IOC has final say in the matter, I just think ITTF could and should do better to protect its athletes. There were 3 sprinters from Jamaica and another 3 from the USA in the final of 100m in London 2012. Same with many other athletics events, same with archery, etc.

 

[rainneverever]

By the way anybody already noticed that Germany is #1 at men's team ranking as well

I think we discussed somewhere in this thread and wonder if Japan became #2 and China #3, what would happen. As Germany #1 and China #2 now, it is not much different from China #1 and Germany #2 for the drawing.
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...itrij-Ovtcharov-The-New-World-Number-1!/page5

And I also posted the pdfs of new world ranking policy. Since there was a further change in late Dec 2017, I will post the links again.
Version 1.0 (2016/12/20) WTTC and WTTTC are valid for 2 years (to be precise, till next edition), 1st year 100% and 2nd year 50%. OG and OG team points are valid for 4 year, first year 100% and later 75%, 50% and 25%.
https://tabletennis523.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/ittf_world_ranking_description_2018.pdf
Version 1.1 (2017/10/20) WTTC and WTTTC are 100% for 2 years. OG and OG team points are valid for only 1 year. The points chart gets adjusted (winner/loser ratio remaining the same).
https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2016/07/ITTF-World-Ranking-description-2018-final.pdf
Verson 1.3 (2017/12/18) Team ranking policy is added. Participation points are added.
https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2016/07/World-Ranking-description-2018-final2.pdf

Jan 2018 ranking does not count results in Dec 2016. So Mar 2018 ranking should not count results in Feb 2017. For this regards, Dima will have 7 results totaling 13665 in Mar 2017 (6 singles results + 1 European team champion 720 points). FZD will have 8 results instead (his Feb 2017 Qatar Open points will expire but he will get some points in Jan 2018 Hungarian Open). Without playing Hungrian Open, FZD will have 13845 in Mar 2018 so even he lost in the first round he will have 14295 and surpass Dima. In Mar 2018, Timo will have 14805 points, also higher than Dima. So it is not wise at all for Dima not playing Hungarian Open, lol.

Edit:I forgot Team World Cup in Feb 2018! And Dima will get 300 per singles match! So he will still have 8 results in March. If he can win 7 singles matches (will he play this much?) he will be #1 in Mar 2018 no matter waht FZD's result is in Hungarian Open.

 

[NextLevel]

I realize IOC has final say in the matter, I just think ITTF could and should do better to protect its athletes. There were 3 sprinters from Jamaica and another 3 from the USA in the final of 100m in London 2012. Same with many other athletics events, same with archery, etc.

You think table tennis is like those events in terms of Olympic support? Maybe that is why you think I am being dramatic.