ITTF World Team Table Tennis Championships Finals Busan 2024

[dingyibvs]

It will be interesting if service review is utilized. I have often said tongue-in-cheek that Hawkeye for service review would never be adopted until Ma Long retired lol.

Now you gotta wait until WCQ retires

 

[NextLevel]

Now you gotta wait until WCQ retires

Nah. I think WCQ will actually accelerate the desires, and it might actually be used against him in 2028 lol so Felix can win. Ma Long just became too big and clean to be stained.

 

[dingyibvs]

Nah. I think WCQ will actually accelerate the desires, and it might actually be used against him in 2028 lol so Felix can win. Ma Long just became too big and clean to be stained.

Not if the CNT has anything to say about it

Seriously though, I wonder if with the advances in BH flicks that if service rules are strictly enforced that services may be detrimental to the player at the highest level, like in say volleyball. After all, it's the only shot that needs to bounce twice. If that's the case, then it's possible that pros may simply try to serve to avoid being attacked, so everyone just serve really short backspin/nospin all the time kind of like in doubles.

 

[blahness]

Not if the CNT has anything to say about it

Seriously though, I wonder if with the advances in BH flicks that if service rules are strictly enforced that services may be detrimental to the player at the highest level, like in say volleyball. After all, it's the only shot that needs to bounce twice. If that's the case, then it's possible that pros may simply try to serve to avoid being attacked, so everyone just serve really short backspin/nospin all the time kind of like in doubles.

The server still has a distinct advantage over a player doing chiquita, but it requires a change of mindset in serving. In the past the norm is to serve short and then attack the 3rd ball. Now that will simply get you killed because of the amount of sheer variation you can do on the short receive. That is why now you can see a lot of fast long serves and wide serving to keep receiver guessing. Chen Meng vs Miwa Harimoto - there were way more fast long and wide serves than short serves, many were direct winners.

Fast long serves these days are not just topspin, it's all the way from underspin to sideunderspin (both sidespin directions) to sidetopspin to no spin to topspin.

If someone chiquitas you can still counter the chiquita and enter a rally on equal terms.

 

[Metaxa]

Wauw, hij viel bijna flauw

Yes indeed!

 

[dingyibvs]

The server still has a distinct advantage over a player doing chiquita, but it requires a change of mindset in serving. In the past the norm is to serve short and then attack the 3rd ball. Now that will simply get you killed because of the amount of sheer variation you can do on the short receive. That is why now you can see a lot of fast long serves and wide serving to keep receiver guessing. Chen Meng vs Miwa Harimoto - there were way more fast long and wide serves than short serves, many were direct winners.

Fast long serves these days are not just topspin, it's all the way from underspin to sideunderspin (both sidespin directions) to sidetopspin to no spin to topspin.

If someone chiquitas you can still counter the chiquita and enter a rally on equal terms.

Yeah, long serves are definitely useful for countering chiquitas, but as you mentioned, part of it is the variation in spin. If spin can be more easily read, would it be less effective as well at the very top level?

 

[Metaxa]

It will be interesting if service review is utilized. I have often said tongue-in-cheek that Hawkeye for service review would never be adopted until Ma Long retired lol.

A hawk's eye would already help a lot but why wait. Any self-respecting referee can see that irregular services are given and far more in men than in women. Just about all services where the player serves from the side of the table go wrong. The fact that almost only when the 16cm rule is thrown up, as with Dima, is almost laughable. So many others go wrong with other tricks that are much more detrimental to an opponent.

 

[Metaxa]

The server still has a distinct advantage over a player doing chiquita, but it requires a change of mindset in serving. In the past the norm is to serve short and then attack the 3rd ball. Now that will simply get you killed because of the amount of sheer variation you can do on the short receive. That is why now you can see a lot of fast long serves and wide serving to keep receiver guessing. Chen Meng vs Miwa Harimoto - there were way more fast long and wide serves than short serves, many were direct winners.

Fast long serves these days are not just topspin, it's all the way from underspin to sideunderspin (both sidespin directions) to sidetopspin to no spin to topspin.

If someone chiquitas you can still counter the chiquita and enter a rally on equal terms.

Mmmmm, I see more and more players now (among the men, anyway) returning a simple short serve. From their BH service to the middle (or to their opponent's FH) of the table without/with backward effect. (Seen the Lebrun brothers do this several times at the World Cup)

 

[backspacer]

Hawkeye is definitely good, but umpires need to become better first at enforcing service rules.

 

[blahness]

Yeah, long serves are definitely useful for countering chiquitas, but as you mentioned, part of it is the variation in spin. If spin can be more easily read, would it be less effective as well at the very top level?

If the receiver can read the serve perfectly every time, the server is indeed at a disadvantage for sure. But it is really not easy to read serves in TT....

 

[NextLevel]

A hawk's eye would already help a lot but why wait. Any self-respecting referee can see that irregular services are given and far more in men than in women. Just about all services where the player serves from the side of the table go wrong. The fact that almost only when the 16cm rule is thrown up, as with Dima, is almost laughable. So many others go wrong with other tricks that are much more detrimental to an opponent.

Part of the problem with serve calls is that a protesting player can bring embarrassment to the sport over inconsistent officiating. What Hawkeye on serve faults does is take the call out of the subjective realm. In the match I watched where it was used, when the umpire called the fault, the player would complain. And then the video would show that the player (Ma Long or Liang Jingkun) was clearly serving behind his body to some degree, but because the aerve looked normal and was from Ma Long, people could pretend the machine wasn't working instead of accepting that Ma Long drops the ball behind his body most of the time. In the current situation, making the call just requires a brave umpire and it can be hard without a way of closing the conversation.

Do remember that even in tennis, when umpires made crazy line calls before Hawkeye, players used ro complain with no ability to seek closure. Even on clay, we are seeing that the mark is not always reliable. Having something people cannot argue with which is reliable ends all that nonsense. Hawkeye has eliminated such things in tennis. Clocks have eliminated big arguments over time wasting. Using things that people can review to agree on what happened makes things better. It is the only way the serve rules will ever get enforced (if they ever do) in my opinion.

 

[zeio]

Iseki is satisfied with the result and points out that LYJ could've done better against Felix but was very tired and that they had a chance against France if CCY won his match against Felix.

CCY will officially retire after Paris 2024.

「成績には満足。自信になりました。林昀儒は相当疲れていたね」（タイペイ・偉関監督）
https://world-tt.com/blog/news/archives/165882

莊智淵第6度前進奧運後將退休　曬萌兒「超有戲」表情
https://sports.ettoday.net/news/2691122

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Iseki is satisfied with the result and points out that LYJ could've done better against Felix but was very tired and that they had a chance against France if CCY won his match against Felix.

CCY will officially retire after Paris 2024.

「成績には満足。自信になりました。林昀儒は相当疲れていたね」（タイペイ・偉関監督）
https://world-tt.com/blog/news/archives/165882

莊智淵第6度前進奧運後將退休　曬萌兒「超有戲」表情
https://sports.ettoday.net/news/2691122

yeah, LYJ's pain came back too.
too many days of high level table tennis.
fittest survives to the end. Wasn't the case with LYJ

 

[dingyibvs]

Part of the problem with serve calls is that a protesting player can bring embarrassment to the sport over inconsistent officiating. What Hawkeye on serve faults does is take the call out of the subjective realm. In the match I watched where it was used, when the umpire called the fault, the player would complain. And then the video would show that the player (Ma Long or Liang Jingkun) was clearly serving behind his body to some degree, but because the aerve looked normal and was from Ma Long, people could pretend the machine wasn't working instead of accepting that Ma Long drops the ball behind his body most of the time. In the current situation, making the call just requires a brave umpire and it can be hard without a way of closing the conversation.

Do remember that even in tennis, when umpires made crazy line calls before Hawkeye, players used ro complain with no ability to seek closure. Even on clay, we are seeing that the mark is not always reliable. Having something people cannot argue with which is reliable ends all that nonsense. Hawkeye has eliminated such things in tennis. Clocks have eliminated big arguments over time wasting. Using things that people can review to agree on what happened makes things better. It is the only way the serve rules will ever get enforced (if they ever do) in my opinion.

Some sports just don't want that though. Baseball is probably the most egregious, since the pitch zone is literally involved in every single pitch.

 

[Metaxa]

Part of the problem with serve calls is that a protesting player can bring embarrassment to the sport over inconsistent officiating. What Hawkeye on serve faults does is take the call out of the subjective realm. In the match I watched where it was used, when the umpire called the fault, the player would complain. And then the video would show that the player (Ma Long or Liang Jingkun) was clearly serving behind his body to some degree, but because the aerve looked normal and was from Ma Long, people could pretend the machine wasn't working instead of accepting that Ma Long drops the ball behind his body most of the time. In the current situation, making the call just requires a brave umpire and it can be hard without a way of closing the conversation.

Do remember that even in tennis, when umpires made crazy line calls before Hawkeye, players used ro complain with no ability to seek closure. Even on clay, we are seeing that the mark is not always reliable. Having something people cannot argue with which is reliable ends all that nonsense. Hawkeye has eliminated such things in tennis. Clocks have eliminated big arguments over time wasting. Using things that people can review to agree on what happened makes things better. It is the only way the serve rules will ever get enforced (if they ever do) in my opinion.

In other sports there is no problem, tennis, hockey, volleyball, basketball, etc....

 

[NextLevel]

In other sports there is no problem, tennis, hockey, volleyball, basketball, etc....

Yeah but look at the number of referees they often have in other sports. Table Tennis is too complicated for the puny resources we put into enforcing the rules.

 

[Metaxa]

Yeah but look at the number of referees they often have in other sports. Table Tennis is too complicated for the puny resources we put into enforcing the rules.

Gosh in my view there is actually little that can go wrong in refereeing table tennis. Each on a side of a table gives more than enough opportunities to judge something, in my opinion, even without a hawk's eye, but the biggest problem is as you also wrote, the referees' sense of responsibility but above all the nerve to go against (renowned) players.

 

[NextLevel]

Gosh in my view there is actually little that can go wrong in refereeing table tennis. Each on a side of a table gives more than enough opportunities to judge something, in my opinion, even without a hawk's eye, but the biggest problem is as you also wrote, the referees' sense of responsibility but above all the nerve to go against (renowned) players.

The biggest problem is the players have not taken the cultural responsibility to make serving obviously legal and the umpires are largely volunteers not professionals. The complexity of the rules leads to many pros serving illegally in one aspect or the other. The pendulum serve often leads to a shielding of the ball with the body depending on where the receiver stands to see the serve. Same with other side on serves like the hook. Then there is the tradition around warning. Then inconsistent punishment of dodgy serves.

Craig Bryant made an interesting video yesterday about ball tossing and if you watch it, you realize that unless you toss the ball maybe about 24 inches and even with that, the toss must not go more than maybe 10 ‐ 12 inches laterally, your serve is likely illegal in toss angle. How will someone objectively determine that visually? The rules say 30 degrees from vertical. Good luck with using your eyes to call it.

 

[Metaxa]

The biggest problem is the players have not taken the cultural responsibility to make serving obviously legal and the umpires are largely volunteers not professionals. The complexity of the rules leads to many pros serving illegally in one aspect or the other. The pendulum serve often leads to a shielding of the ball with the body depending on where the receiver stands to see the serve. Same with other side on serves like the hook. Then there is the tradition around warning. Then inconsistent punishment of dodgy serves.

Craig Bryant made an interesting video yesterday about ball tossing and if you watch it, you realize that unless you toss the ball maybe about 24 inches and even with that, the toss must not go more than maybe 10 ‐ 12 inches laterally, your serve is likely illegal in toss angle. How will someone objectively determine that visually? The rules say 30 degrees from vertical. Good luck with using your eyes to call it.

I don't remember who it was with but I did see a referee in the last World Cup reprimand a player on a ball that was thrown too much to the body. If it is flagrant, it can be noted. yet there are players who can throw a ball metres high straight (or almost straight anyway). So...

 

[jbvttcc]

Penholder enthusiasts likely recognized the top ranked three men’s and three women’s penhold players at Busan: Felix Lebrun, Dang Qui, Wong Chun Ting and Xiaona Shan,
Fu Yu, Xia Lian Ni.
I was looking at this YouTube video that showed players practicing prior to the start of the competition

From 1:09-1:16 there are two women players with the one in the foreground with her back to the camera playing penholder. On the opposite side of the table it looks like Chen Szu-Yu from Chinese Taipei.
If that’s her, all of the other listed Chinese Taipei team members play shakehand. I did some research and was unable to find any other women penholders on any other teams than the ones mentioned above.
Would a non-team member be able to come as a practice partner?
Anyone have any idea who this female penholder might be?

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