JTTA: Selection System to be Revamped for Paris 2024

[zeio]

日本的梯队建设怎么样？ (How is the development of Japan's echelon?)
https://tieba.baidu.com/p/9149933521
中華纯白娘 从男女到教练除了张本一家查无此人 (From men and women to coaches, no one is found except Harimoto's family)
IP属地:湖北来自Android客户端7楼2024-09-10 23:52收起回复
贴吧用户_7bPtWWK: 回复 中華纯白娘 :还有松岛一家 (There is still the Matsushima family)
2024-9-10 23:54回复
Ikusabe: 回复 贴吧用户_7bPtWWK :松岛美空的发展好像也很一般的样子 (The development of Matsushima Miku seems to be pretty average)
2024-9-11 00:32回复

沈叶澜 感觉日本女乒已经稳坐中国以下第一外协了，而且不知道为什么，相比男乒的拉胯，女乒能稳定的出天才少女也是神奇。
难道日本是女乒教练还不错，但男乒教练不行？ (I feel like Japan's women's table tennis has firmly established itself as the top foreign team after China, and I don't know why, compared to the poor performance of the men's table tennis, it is amazing that the women's table tennis can consistently produce talented girls.
Is it possible that Japan's women's table tennis coaches are decent, but the men's table tennis coaches are not?)
IP属地:河南来自Android客户端11楼2024-09-11 00:34收起回复
Ikusabe: 因为全世界女乒除了中国基本都不太行，男乒比女乒卷得多 (Because women's table tennis around the world is basically not very good except China, and men's table tennis is much more competitive than women's table tennis)
2024-9-11 00:36回复
老鸭奇遇记2028: 回复 Ikusabe :是的 全世界的女乒都是不大行 强度不大 你看看世排十名之后的 基本都一样 (Yes, women's table tennis teams all over the world are not that good and not very strong. If you look at the teams after the top ten in world ranking, they are basically the same)
2024-9-11 01:26回复

中華纯白娘 日本男乒其实需要一个森保一，但成为森保一是需要付出代价的，作为对张本一家还有点好感的人，其实不希望付出这个代价的是张本智和 (Japan's men's table tennis actually needs a MORIYASU Hajime, but becoming MORIYASU Hajime requires a price. As someone who still has some affection for the Harimoto family, the one who actually does not want to pay this price is Harimoto Tomokazu.)
IP属地:湖北来自Android客户端15楼2024-09-11 01:22收起回复
念北楼º: 意思是教练不好当吗？难怪水鸟不肯当教练，哎 (Does it mean that being a coach is not easy? No wonder Water Bird [TL's note: Mizutani's nickname] doesn't want to become a coach)
2024-9-11 02:11回复
中華纯白娘: 回复 念北楼º :意思是需要一个对桌球有热情，知道jtta的问题在哪，且愿意为jtta奉献的人，但是现在日本显然没有这样的人 (What I mean is that they need someone who is passionate about table tennis, knows where the problems of JTTA are, and one who is willing to dedicate to JTTA, but there is obviously no such person in Japan now)
2024-9-11 07:42回复
晚睡长痘痘（两大颗）: 18年张本刚打出来，就有说真正的难题在日本团队，只有世界级的团队才能带出世界之巅的选手 (When Harimoto just broke out in 2018, it was said that the real problem lied with the Japanese team. Only a world-class team can cultivate the best players in the world)
2024-9-11 12:07回复

sig飞 女队相对来说算成功的，早田平野美和伊藤现在坐稳外协第一，偶尔爆冷（平野奥运输申裕斌），但有点卸磨杀驴（伊藤待遇下降）
混双奥运输朝鲜纯属后勤资源差+要脸不遮挡，缺乏模拟朝鲜混双的陪练
男队的话，张本一超带俩废，松岛还在发育，这梯队其实建设失败了，奥运会颗粒无收
(The women's team is relatively successful. Hayata, Hirano and Ito are now firmly the No. 1 foreign association. There are the occasional upsets (Hirano losing to SYB in Olympics), but they are a bit of single-use (Ito's treatment has dropped)
Losing to North Korea at the Olympics was purely because of poor back-end support and resources + they cared about pride and didn't hide their serves, and lack of sparring partners to simulate North Korea's XD.
As for the men's team, One Super Harimoto is carrying two useless players, and Matsushima is still developing. This echelon has actually failed to come to fruition, and nothing was achieved in the Olympics)
IP属地:云南来自Android客户端17楼2024-09-11 09:05回复

SSSS.STIGA 张本研究对手，队友研究张本 (Harimoto studies his opponents, and his teammates study Harimoto)
IP属地:辽宁来自Android客户端18楼2024-09-11 09:29回复

 

[5545]

Ito's best chance to medal at WTTC was in 2021 when she was the 3rd seed and WYD was 7th, but that match wasn't even close to competitive. That was right after her triple medal feat at the Olympics too and WYD was barely recognized as a core team member, making it to singles only because of the absence of LSW, ZYL, and DN.

Ito has also played a total of 5 individual WTTCs while Hayata managed to medal on her second try. The only time Ito really had a bad draw was in 2019 when she drew SYS in round 3 and WMY in the quarters, but she completely underestimated SYS and was outplayed on that occasion.

The point is that Ito has still achieved more than Hayata has despite not medalling at WTTC

Maybe against Hirano, Ito's results are comparable: Ito has bronze world cup medal, and silver at Asian Cup compared to Hirano's gold at both World Cup and Asian Championships and bronze at WTTC, which makes Hirano seem stronger. However, Ito has better Olympic game, Nationals, and WTGF results by a lot, so there is no clear winner.

 

[driversbeat]

The point is that Ito has still achieved more than Hayata has despite not medalling at WTTC

Maybe against Hirano, Ito's results are comparable: Ito has bronze world cup medal, and silver at Asian Cup compared to Hirano's gold at both World Cup and Asian Championships and bronze at WTTC, which makes Hirano seem stronger. However, Ito has better Olympic game, Nationals, and WTGF results by a lot, so there is no clear winner.

Taking out the XD gold* (which Ito only managed to hang on because Mitzutani kept fighting imo), none of Ito's major achievements have been attained by beating a Chinese player. Hayata may have 'only' beaten WYD for her WTTC bronze and Asian Games silver but Ito didn't manage to do that when she was expected to (WTTC 2021) and later when the opportunity presented itself again (Asian cup 2022). Also pretty sure that a WTTC medal weighs a lot more than a WC medal.

Hirano is the only one who has surpassed that result with a 3-in-1 (2017 Asian Championships), but even she has found it a struggle to match Hayata's 'poor' results; losing 0-4 to the same WYD at WTTC 2023, to the North Korean player at the Asian Games, to Shin at the Olympic Games when she was supposed to win.

*Edit for accuracy

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Ito's best chance to medal at WTTC was in 2021 when she was the 3rd seed and WYD was 7th, but that match wasn't even close to competitive. That was right after her triple medal feat at the Olympics too and WYD was barely recognized as a core team member, making it to singles only because of the absence of LSW, ZYL, and DN.

Ito has also played a total of 5 individual WTTCs while Hayata managed to medal on her second try. The only time Ito really had a bad draw was in 2019 when she drew SYS in round 3 and WMY in the quarters, but she completely underestimated SYS and was outplayed on that occasion.

That is why I said Ito had an early start in life and was worthy of achieving so much more and she has almost faded away.

Hayata was always in the spectator seat and I never felt early blossom is healthy.
Let’s see if Hayata can prove my view right.

Hayata is way more complete and fan favorite (other than that of some chinese netizens)

 

[5545]

Taking out the XD bronze (which Ito only managed to hang on because Mitzutani kept fighting imo), none of Ito's major achievements have been attained by beating a Chinese player. Hayata may have 'only' beaten WYD for her WTTC bronze and Asian Games silver but Ito didn't manage to do that when she was expected to (WTTC 2021) and later when the opportunity presented itself again (Asian cup 2022). Also pretty sure that a WTTC medal weighs a lot more than a WC medal.

Hirano is the only one who has surpassed that result with a 3-in-1 (2017 Asian Championships), but even she has found it a struggle to match Hayata's 'poor' results; losing 0-4 to the same WYD at WTTC 2023, to the North Korean player at the Asian Games, to Shin at the Olympic Games when she was supposed to win.

Yes, but I was talking about purely looking at achievements statistically as a random spectator would (and judging a player’s overall career in all events, which I guess further helps Ito here since she has two silver at WTTC in doubles). Overall Ito and Hirano definitely edges out Hayata even if Hayata’s achievements were harder to obtain.

And she has beaten the most Chinese players overall so that gives her a unique advantage. While a WTTC medal is more challenging than a WC medal, they are both part of the “big three” tournaments so the difference is not too huge.

 

[5545]

That is why I said Ito had an early start in life and was worthy of achieving so much more and she has almost faded away.

Hayata was always in the spectator seat and I never felt early blossom is healthy.
Let’s see if Hayata can prove my view right.

Hayata is way more complete and fan favorite (other than that of some chinese netizens)

Which is why HAYATA may do so in the future but she has not yet surprass Ito’s achievements as of right now.

 

[driversbeat]

Yes, but I was talking about purely looking at achievements statistically as a random spectator would (and judging a player’s overall career in all events, which I guess further helps Ito here since she has two silver at WTTC in doubles). Overall Ito and Hirano definitely edges out Hayata even if Hayata’s achievements were harder to obtain.

And she has beaten the most Chinese players overall so that gives her a unique advantage. While a WTTC medal is more challenging than a WC medal, they are both part of the “big three” tournaments so the difference is not too huge.

Tell that to Liu Shiwen who had 4 world cups but no WTTC title prior to her 2019 win.

Even Fukuhara and Ishikawa have world cup bronzes but never came close to medalling at WTTC. In this era of JNT, world cup bronze should be the minimum.

 

[5545]

Tell that to Liu Shiwen who had 4 world cups but no WTTC title prior to her 2019 win.

Even Fukuhara and Ishikawa have world cup bronzes but never came close to medalling at WTTC. In this era of JNT, world cup bronze should be the minimum.

Well, in that case Ito got 3rd twice at WTGF so that matches Hina's bronze at WTTC since they both had to beat WYD to achieve it and that's it. Am I correct to assume that Hirano Hayata have all never reached semis in WTGF before? It is valued less than WTTC for sure but the difficulty is similar

".... world cup bronze should be the minimum"
WHICH HINA DOESN'T EVEN HAVE

Also........ Interesting to see how Ito earned her WC bronze on her first try while Hirano couldn't even get a single medal in like four tries at WC after 2016.

 

[driversbeat]

Well, in that case Ito got 3rd twice at WTGF so that matches Hina's bronze at WTTC since they both had to beat WYD to achieve it and that's it. Am I correct to assume that Hirano Hayata have all never reached semis in WTGF before? It is valued less than WTTC for sure but the difficulty is similar

".... world cup bronze should be the minimum"
WHICH HINA DOESN'T EVEN HAVE

Also........ Interesting to see how Ito earned her WC bronze on her first try while Hirano couldn't even get a single medal in like four tries at WC after 2016.

Fair point about WTGF being similar to WTTC in terms of difficulty, but I think the two tournaments don't come close in terms of nerves and atmosphere. Again, Liu Shiwen had 3 WTGF titles to her name but nobody cared/remembered. In addition, I don't think they give out bronze medals for WTGF, only winners and runner's-up. Sure it might only be a technicality, but these things matter as far as how much CNT prepares/cares about such tournaments. There's a reason why they were happy to boycott WTGFs to express their frustration with ITTF, but chastised Liu Shiwen for not holding the fort by withdrawing from WC 2016.

Also, the WYD whom Ito beat in 2020 is not the same as the WYD Hayata beat in 2023. In the Tokyo cycle, WYD was at best 7th behind DN, LSW, ZYL, SYS, CM, and WMY. Meaning that she would not even have been the fifth pick for a WTTC team event let alone be part of the core three. WYD in the Paris cycle was 4th in CNT and at a contender for an Olympic spot, even if she happened to be a really poor one.

 

[5545]

Sure, but I don’t think it’s fair to judge achievements based on how much the Chinese value a the tournaments or how “difficult” it was to In that case I guess you must diminish Hirano’s WTTC bronze and WC gold. So then HAYATA has achieved more than both Hirano and Ito????

 

[zeio]

FWIW, FTW, a former CNT player, was the greatest threat to CNT (namely LSW) before Hirano and Hirano beat FTW twice in those 2 tournaments (4-2 at World Cup 2016 and 4-0 WTTC 2017).

From a Tieba thread on Harimoto 2-3 Hifumi at WTT CS Macao 2024:
到底谁在吹张本 (For real, who's boasting about Harimoto?)
https://tieba.baidu.com/p/9171521800
铁西路支 他也算有些成绩啊，又不是只有巴奥和小胖那场打的好，有亚洲杯和总决赛冠军，就像平野现在不行了但不能否认她的世界杯和亚锦赛冠军，至少比已经疲软的平野好一点 (He has some achievements. It's not just the match against Xiaopang at Paris 2024 in which he played well. He also won Asian Cup 2022 and WTGF 2018. Just like how Hirano is not good now, but we can't deny her World Cup 2016 and ATTC 2017. At least she is better than the already weak Hirano. [TL's note: Ito, rather?])
IP属地:北京来自Android客户端7楼2024-09-12 17:31收起回复
三只小肥羊: 确实，平野和伊藤感觉被cn打服了之后谁都能踩上一脚…… (Indeed, I feel that Hirano and Ito after being steamrolled by CN, anyone could step on them...)
2024-9-12 21:00回复

贴吧用户_7bPtWWK 不如他妹美和 (Not as good as his sister Miwa)
IP属地:湖南来自Android客户端15楼2024-09-12 18:16收起回复
铁西路支: 他妹才是真拉，平野伊藤这么大时候都给女队造成冲击过主力了，她现在连蒯曼都能输，日女都是年轻时冲劲猛后面资源跟不上拉了，就她靠个年龄吹未来可期 (His sister is the real let-down. When Hirano and Ito were her age, they had already impacted the core players of the women's team. Now she can even lose to KM. Japanese women are all very aggressive when they are young, but they wane later on as the resources fail to keep up. It's only her that people boast about how promising she is based on her age)
2024-9-12 18:38回复
苏小小的烛光: 回复 铁西路支 :我也一直不太喜欢那些无脑吹张本美和的，平野16岁拿到世界杯冠军（虽然国乒没有参赛，但也说明达到了最强外协的水平），17岁一串三大国乒主力拿到亚锦赛冠军，伊藤19岁狂胜国乒主力，连胜丁宁刘诗雯朱雨玲孙颖莎和王曼昱五大主力，一己之力推动了国乒改朝换代，现在都伤仲永了 (I also don't like those who blindly praise Harimoto Miwa. Hirano won the World Cup 2016 at the age of 16 (although the CNT did not participate, it also shows that she had reached the level of the strongest foreign association). At the age of 17, she skewered three core CNT players to take the ATTC 2017. At the age of 19, Ito beat the core CNT players left and right, and won consecutive matches over DN, LSW, ZYL, SYS and WMY. She single-handedly ushered in a new dynasty of the CNT. Now she is a lost cause.)
2024-9-12 20:33回复

 

[zeio]

Catching up again.

Kihara's father was arrested on 8/29 for touching his student. Kihara's R16 exit at WTT CT Almaty 2024 was on 9/3.

卓球・木原美悠の父が教え子へのわいせつ容疑で逮捕！かつて語っていた天才愛娘へのスパルタ指導の中身
https://www.nikkan-gendai.com/articles/view/sports/359893
パリ五輪女子卓球代表リザーブ選手の父親 自身が経営する卓球クラブ教え子にわいせつ行為
https://news.livedoor.com/article/detail/27094335/
卓球場で教え子にわいせつ疑い、パリ五輪代表補欠の父を逮捕　「絶対にしていない」と否認
https://www.sankei.com/article/20240829-BHJRYUJAJRKZ3JSVJHCW5Q5GB4/

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

Sure, but I don’t think it’s fair to judge achievements based on how much the Chinese value a the tournaments or how “difficult” it was to In that case I guess you must diminish Hirano’s WTTC bronze and WC gold. So then HAYATA has achieved more than both Hirano and Ito????

I think you do have to judge achievements based on how difficult it was to achieve it. But that's actually a strong point for Hirano as she beat DN, ZYL, and CM to win the 2017 Asian Championship. I don't think at this point we can say that one player of the 3 has clearly outdone the others. They're achievements are unique in their own way. Hirano with her 2017 Asian Championship beating 3 top Chinese. Ito with her Japan Open beating CXT and WMY and triple medals at the Tokyo Olympics. Hayata with bronze Asian games and World Championships beating WYD. It seems that Hayata's win over WYD somewhat broke WYD's confidence as the flood gates seemed to be open after that. In terms of strength of their game, I do think Hayata is the most complete as Tony stated. That was made pretty clear in the multiple Paris trials that she dominated.

 

[NextLevel]

Yes, but I was talking about purely looking at achievements statistically as a random spectator would (and judging a player’s overall career in all events, which I guess further helps Ito here since she has two silver at WTTC in doubles). Overall Ito and Hirano definitely edges out Hayata even if Hayata’s achievements were harder to obtain.

And she has beaten the most Chinese players overall so that gives her a unique advantage. While a WTTC medal is more challenging than a WC medal, they are both part of the “big three” tournaments so the difference is not too huge.

I think a nuanced view of the issue can lead to multiple reasonable conclusions, but I am not sure how Hayata's achievements were easier or harder to obtain. It's really funny that you credit Ito with two silvers in WTTC in doubles and forget who her partner was for those silvers. The nuanced view is that any event that allows more top Chinese players to participate is always a greater achievement.

I can get that public perception weighs Olympic gold in XD or gold in World Cup and the fact that Ito and Hirano qualified for more WTTCs higher . But us informed observers can tell that such things are not so simple and since their careers are not over yet (hopefully), let's see how it plays out. We have learned from looking at careers on the CNT and even the current JNT that life is not so simple...

 

[NextLevel]

Then Hirano is the least achieved as she only has ONE achievement (Asian Championships)and everything else appr

As zeio pointed out, FTW was the original top non-CNT player before Hirano, and Hirano beat her every time on her way to those achievements and Hirano also beat Ito and CIC on the way to the World Cup. So it isn't that simple. The main thing here is to not ignore the nuances or to think other opinions are coming from idiots, I am okay with anyone's view.

 

[NextLevel]

Well, in that case Ito got 3rd twice at WTGF so that matches Hina's bronze at WTTC since they both had to beat WYD to achieve it and that's it. Am I correct to assume that Hirano Hayata have all never reached semis in WTGF before? It is valued less than WTTC for sure but the difficulty is similar

".... world cup bronze should be the minimum"
WHICH HINA DOESN'T EVEN HAVE

Also........ Interesting to see how Ito earned her WC bronze on her first try while Hirano couldn't even get a single medal in like four tries at WC after 2016.

How does one get into the World Cup in modern times and how often has the event been held since Hayata's ranking and play started qualifying her for it? If you remember and note the answer to that, you would come to a more nuanced assessment of what is happening. It's like downgrading Deng Yaping's GOAT argument because she doesn't have more World Cup medals.

 

[NextLevel]

Well, in that case Ito got 3rd twice at WTGF so that matches Hina's bronze at WTTC since they both had to beat WYD to achieve it and that's it. Am I correct to assume that Hirano Hayata have all never reached semis in WTGF before? It is valued less than WTTC for sure but the difficulty is similar

".... world cup bronze should be the minimum"
WHICH HINA DOESN'T EVEN HAVE

Also........ Interesting to see how Ito earned her WC bronze on her first try while Hirano couldn't even get a single medal in like four tries at WC after 2016.

You do realize that Ito played in 2016 World Cup right? And that the way the World cup works, one has to be in top 2 ranked players from a country to have a chance and then get selected by the association. So no, Ito didn't get a WC bronze on her first try.

 

[5545]

I think you do have to judge achievements based on how difficult it was to achieve it. But that's actually a strong point for Hirano as she beat DN, ZYL, and CM to win the 2017 Asian Championship. I don't think at this point we can say that one player of the 3 has clearly outdone the others. They're achievements are unique in their own way. Hirano with her 2017 Asian Championship beating 3 top Chinese. Ito with her Japan Open beating CXT and WMY and triple medals at the Tokyo Olympics. Hayata with bronze Asian games and World Championships beating WYD. It seems that Hayata's win over WYD somewhat broke WYD's confidence as the flood gates seemed to be open after that. In terms of strength of their game, I do think Hayata is the most complete as Tony stated. That was made pretty clear in the multiple Paris trials that she dominated.

This is basically discrediting Ito and Hayata’s medals at the Olympics except for her XD gold since it was not very diffficult.

This is also degrading all of Hirano’s achievements such as WTTC bronze and WC gold, except for her ATTC win.

Beating FTW is nothing impressive. Ito did that 4-0 at 14 years old and again at the olympics 3:0. She also beat CIC in 2015 so the fact that Hirano did that a year later is nothing impressive.

 

[5545]

How does one get into the World Cup in modern times and how often has the event been held since Hayata's ranking and play started qualifying her for it? If you remember and note the answer to that, you would come to a more nuanced assessment of what is happening. It's like downgrading Deng Yaping's GOAT argument because she doesn't have more World Cup medals.

I’m not trying to look at this critically, because we’re talking about who’s purely the most achieved, not anything else. The question is who achieved the most, not who had the most chances to and who was most lucky, etc.

 

[NextLevel]

you guys are basically discrediting Ito and Hayata’s medals at the Olympics except for her XD gold since it was not very diffficult.

This is also degrading all of Hirano’s achievements such as WTTC bronze and WC gold, except for her ATTC win.

The only thing it doesn’t degrade is Ito beating all CNT players (except CM) across two generations.

Beating FTW and CIC is nothing impressive. Ito did that 4-0 at 14 years old and again at the olympics 3:0. As for CIC, she beat her in 2015 comfortably (3:1) While they are good wins, they are not impressive.

No one is degrading anything, if one compares things and feels one is better than another, then that is their feeling, there is nothing degrading about it. I mean are you not the one claiming someone is ahead? The question is first and foremost, what are the player's achievements and given your insights as a table tennis fan, how are you judging them? Beating anyone in a single match is what it is, beating them in singles match with medals on the line is very different. Let's remember, Timo never even medaled in Olympics singles, losing to players lower rated than him *every single time*.

IMHO, a WTTC bronze is a WTTC bronze, the Chinese field 5 players or more, you need to get through the draw or have someone beat someone for you. Defending your seeding is never easy because everyone peaks for the World Championships. Hirano earned and defended her seeding, even with a mildly lucky draw that had FTW in her quarter. But if you want to claim that her World Cup win in the absence of CNT players entirely puts her ahead of Hayata or Ito, then you are okay to claim that but the nuances can be debated because of how one qualifies for the World Cup and the specific circumstances in play at that time.

Even Hayata beating Wang Yidi twice is debatable, but as driversbeat pointed out, Mima Ito had a chance to do the same exact thing in Houston and fell short, so that is in Hayata's favor.

I think they are all great players with different achievements, I disagreed with Tony's claim that Hayata is ahead of them, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.