JTTA: Selection System to be Revamped for Paris 2024

[NextLevel]

you guys are basically discrediting Ito and Hayata’s medals at the Olympics except for her XD gold since it was not very diffficult.

This is also degrading all of Hirano’s achievements such as WTTC bronze and WC gold, except for her ATTC win.

The only thing it doesn’t degrade is Ito beating all CNT players (except CM) across two generations.

Beating FTW and CIC is nothing impressive. Ito did that 4-0 at 14 years old and again at the olympics 3:0. As for CIC, she beat her in 2015 comfortably (3:1) While they are good wins, they are not impressive.

No one is degrading anything, if one compares things and feels one is better than another, then that is their feeling, there is nothing degrading about it. I mean are you not the one claiming someone is ahead? The question is first and foremost, what are the player's achievements and given your insights as a table tennis fan, how are you judging them? Beating anyone in a single match is what it is, beating them in singles match with medals on the line is very different. Let's remember, Timo never even medaled in Olympics singles, losing to players lower rated than him *every single time*.

IMHO, a WTTC bronze is a WTTC bronze, the Chinese field 5 players or more, you need to get through the draw or have someone beat someone for you. Defending your seeding is never easy because everyone peaks for the World Championships. Hirano earned and defended her seeding, even with a mildly lucky draw that had FTW in her quarter. But if you want to claim that her World Cup win in the absence of CNT players entirely puts her ahead of Hayata or Ito, then you are okay to claim that but the nuances can be debated because of how one qualifies for the World Cup and the specific circumstances in play at that time.

Even Hayata beating Wang Yidi twice is debatable, but as driversbeat pointed out, Mima Ito had a chance to do the same exact thing in Houston and fell short, so that is in Hayata's favor.

I think they are all great players with different achievements, I disagreed with Tony's claim that Hayata is ahead of them, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

 

[NextLevel]

I’m not trying to look at this critically, because we’re talking about who’s purely the most achieved, not how

That's not my understanding at all, and if you really want to talk about most achieved in terms of numbers, just draw up a medals table and discuss your statements using it to note achievements. If you don't do that and claim to be talking about purely most achieved, you are being a bit disingenuous to say the least.

 

[zeio]

I think you do have to judge achievements based on how difficult it was to achieve it. But that's actually a strong point for Hirano as she beat DN, ZYL, and CM to win the 2017 Asian Championship. I don't think at this point we can say that one player of the 3 has clearly outdone the others. They're achievements are unique in their own way. Hirano with her 2017 Asian Championship beating 3 top Chinese. Ito with her Japan Open beating CXT and WMY and triple medals at the Tokyo Olympics. Hayata with bronze Asian games and World Championships beating WYD. It seems that Hayata's win over WYD somewhat broke WYD's confidence as the flood gates seemed to be open after that. In terms of strength of their game, I do think Hayata is the most complete as Tony stated. That was made pretty clear in the multiple Paris trials that she dominated.

Hirano was arguably the one that opened the floodgate after winning 3-2 in R32 at Singapore Smash 2023 (first win by a JNT player over a core CNT player for Paris 2024 cycle), with WYD coming off of the Asian Cup 2022, where Hayata lost 1-4 in SF and Ito lost 2-4 in F. One can also argue Hirano drew WYD's attention away despite losing 0-4 (very close G2 with game points and G3) in R16 at WTTC 2023, like how she drained CM at WTTC 2021.

As the Tieba comments show [1, 2], Hirano is clearly rated higher than Hayata (despite more medals) and Ito in WS results, despite Hayata's strength being recognized as the strongest for the time being. The 5ch comment (0020 名無しＱ(･∀･)ﾉ゜ｻｧﾝ!! 2024/08/30(金) 22:07:29.72) shows a similar sentiment when Hirano is (rightfully) placed ahead of Hayata when it comes to win rate against core CNT players, compared to Hayata being placed ahead of Harimoto when it comes to win rate against other foreign players.

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

This is basically discrediting Ito and Hayata’s medals at the Olympics except for her XD gold since it was not very diffficult.

This is also degrading all of Hirano’s achievements such as WTTC bronze and WC gold, except for her ATTC win.

Beating FTW is nothing impressive. Ito did that 4-0 at 14 years old and again at the olympics 3:0. She also beat CIC in 2015 so the fact that Hirano did that a year later is nothing impressive.

No I'm not discrediting or degrading anyone's achievements. I'm not sure how you got that from my post. I'm just responding to your statement about it not being fair to judge achievements based on how difficult it was to achieve it. Do you think it's fair to say Hirano's 2017 Asian Championship with beating DN, ZYL, and CM was harder to achieve than Hayata's 2021 Asian Championship beating SYB in the finals and no Chinese along the way?

They all have their own unique achievements and all worthy of praise.

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

Hirano was arguably the one that opened the floodgate after winning 3-2 in R32 at Singapore Smash 2023 (first win by a JNT player over a core CNT player for Paris 2024 cycle), with WYD coming off of the Asian Cup 2022, where Hayata lost 1-4 in SF and Ito lost 2-4 in F. One can also argue Hirano drew WYD's attention away despite losing 0-4 (very close G2 with game points and G3) in R16 at WTTC 2023, like how she drained CM at WTTC 2021.

As the Tieba comments show [1, 2], Hirano is clearly rated higher than Hayata (despite more medals) and Ito in WS results, despite Hayata's strength being recognized as the strongest for the time being. The 5ch comment (0020 名無しＱ(･∀･)ﾉ゜ｻｧﾝ!! 2024/08/30(金) 22:07:29.72) shows a similar sentiment when Hirano is (rightfully) placed ahead of Hayata when it comes to win rate against core CNT players, compared to Hayata being placed ahead of Harimoto when it comes to win rate against other foreign players.

In the round prior to Hayata beating WYD at the WTTC, WYD beat Hirano 4-0. Hayata's deuce in the 7th (21-19) win saving 9 match ponits was one of the greatest matches of all time and was very emotional for Hayata obviously and a heartbreaker for WYD.

 

[NextLevel]

In the round prior to Hayata beating WYD at the WTTC, WYD beat Hirano 4-0. Hayata's deuce in the 7th (21-19) win saving 9 match ponits was one of the greatest matches of all time and was very emotional for Hayata obviously and a heartbreaker for WYD.

zeio's point is the 4-0 win wasn't simply a display of WYD's form, it was a draining match that tired WYD out and without Hirano tiring out WYD, Hayata's win would not have been possible.

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

zeio's point is the 4-0 win wasn't simply a display of WYD's form, it was a draining match that tired WYD out and without Hirano tiring out WYD, Hayata's win would not have been possible.

Okay, if that's the argument then I'm not buying it. Match times: WYD/Hirano R16 match 5/25/2023 @ 19:10, WYD/Hayata QF match 5/26/2023 @ 18:30. Highly doubtful the CNT wouldn't have WYD focused and prepared for Japan's (China's biggest rival) top player a full day later.

 

[5545]

No I'm not discrediting or degrading anyone's achievements. I'm not sure how you got that from my post. I'm just responding to your statement about it not being fair to judge achievements based on how difficult it was to achieve it. Do you think it's fair to say Hirano's 2017 Asian Championship with beating DN, ZYL, and CM was harder to achieve than Hayata's 2021 Asian Championship beating SYB in the finals and no Chinese along the way?

They all have their own unique achievements and all worthy of praise.

No one is degrading anything, if one compares things and feels one is better than another, then that is their feeling, there is nothing degrading about it. I mean are you not the one claiming someone is ahead? The question is first and foremost, what are the player's achievements and given your insights as a table tennis fan, how are you judging them? Beating anyone in a single match is what it is, beating them in singles match with medals on the line is very different. Let's remember, Timo never even medaled in Olympics singles, losing to players lower rated than him *every single time*.

IMHO, a WTTC bronze is a WTTC bronze, the Chinese field 5 players or more, you need to get through the draw or have someone beat someone for you. Defending your seeding is never easy because everyone peaks for the World Championships. Hirano earned and defended her seeding, even with a mildly lucky draw that had FTW in her quarter. But if you want to claim that her World Cup win in the absence of CNT players entirely puts her ahead of Hayata or Ito, then you are okay to claim that but the nuances can be debated because of how one qualifies for the World Cup and the specific circumstances in play at that time.

Even Hayata beating Wang Yidi twice is debatable, but as driversbeat pointed out, Mima Ito had a chance to do the same exact thing in Houston and fell short, so that is in Hayata's favor.

I think they are all great players with different achievements, I disagreed with Tony's claim that Hayata is ahead of them, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

No that is actually opposite of what I was saying; Hirano’s ATTC gold WTTC bronze and WC gold are what makes her most accomplished along with Ito’s triple medal feat at Olympics, bronze at WC, Silver at Asian Cup and beating almost all of two generations of CNT. HAYATA, however falls short since she only has a silver and bronze even if that may have been harder to achieve compared to some of Hirano or Ito’s achievements.

That was my point the whole time, but since others wanted to consider the practical difficulty and worth of these achievements, I was trying to show why that was not the brightest thing to do. Because if you do that, it does in fact makes a lot of Hirano and Ito’s (especially Hirano) achievement look worthless, while emphasizing Hayata’s.

 

[NextLevel]

No that is actually opposite of what I was saying; Hirano’s ATTC gold WTTC bronze and WC gold are what makes her most accomplished along with Ito’s triple medal feat at Olympics, bronze at WC, Silver at Asian Cup and beating almost all of two generations of CNT. HAYATA, however falls short since she only has a silver and bronze even if that may have been harder to achieve compared to some of Hirano or Ito’s achievements.

That was my point the whole time, but since others wanted to consider the practical difficulty and worth of these achievements, I was trying to show why that was not the brightest thing to do. Because if you do that, it does in fact makes a lot of Hirano and Ito’s (especially Hirano) achievement look worthless, while emphasizing Hayata’s.

A few points: Hayata has an Asian Champs gold on a year the CNT didn't participate. She also has an Adian Games silver and both an Olympics bronze and a WTTC bronze. So no, it is not all silver and bronze. There are other things at WTTC in doubles and mixed doubles but not the point.

My point has been that no one has a clear edge that can't be discussed with nuance. We all seem to agree except Tony (Hayata) and maybe Zeio (Hirano, Ito). For me, Hayata has WTTC and the Olympics. Ito only Olympics, Hirano WTTC. How you want to rank the XD gold and a few other things is open to everyone and that is why I say it is nuanced.

 

[5545]

A few points: Hayata has an Asian Champs gold on a year the CNT didn't participate. She also has an Adian Games silver and both an Olympics bronze and a WTTC bronze. So no, it is not all silver and bronze. There are other things at WTTC in doubles and mixed doubles but not the point.

My point has been that no one has a clear edge that can't be discussed with nuance. We all seem to agree except Tony (Hayata) and maybe Zeio (Hirano, Ito). For me, Hayata has WTTC and the Olympics. Ito only Olympics, Hirano WTTC. How you want to rank the XD gold and a few other things is open to everyone and that is why I say it is nuanced.

While Hayata has won ATTC before, Ito broke the most records including the ridiculously difficult ones at Nationals, (youngest ever to defend all three titles 2018/2019). And I'm not sure about Japan, but I think in China they value Nationals Title very highly.

The point is, yes, they are close and the topic is debatable, but my original intention was replying to Tony because he said Hayata was most achieved and I disagree. Hayata's achievements may be close compared other two and she is the strongest right now, but to say she is most achieved is still an exaggeration

It's unfair to not rank the XD gold highly since Hayata had the same opportunity yet failed miserably. (Also, it's not like Ito got carried by Mizutani, so this is a huge achievement that cannot be ignored no matter who is ranking it.

 

[NextLevel]

While Hayata has won ATTC before, Ito broke the most records including the ridiculously difficult ones at Nationals, (youngest ever to defend all three titles 2018/2019). And I'm not sure about Japan, but I think in China they value Nationals Title very highly.

The point is, yes, they are close and the topic is debatable, but my original intention was replying to Tony because he said Hayata was most achieved and I disagree. Hayata's achievements may be close compared other two and she is the strongest right now, but to say she is most achieved is still an exaggeration

It's unfair to not rank the XD gold highly since Hayata had the same opportunity yet failed miserably. (Also, it's not like Ito got carried by Mizutani, so this is a huge achievement that cannot be ignored no matter who is ranking it.

In comparing a singles career, it is not relevant to look at doubles titles. But as I pointed out, I didn't agree with Tony either, so I don't want to get hung up on arguing over that. But my point is that there is enough out there for him to look at things and make a reasonable argument. And let's remember that Hayata has won all Japanese three titles as well even if not defended them, and Tony's argument that the young achievements tend to lead to less durable careers and psychological burnout the way they are pushed in Japan. There is a future component to his claim and it is that Hayata's progress is sustainably healthy in a way that Ito and Hirano were not - let's see whether that plays out or not. And it is quite possible that an early and prolonged success of Miwa might just make all that moot.

 

[5545]

In comparing a singles career, it is not relevant to look at doubles titles. But as I pointed out, I didn't agree with Tony either, so I don't want to get hung up on arguing over that. But my point is that there is enough out there for him to look at things and make a reasonable argument. And let's remember that Hayata has won all three titles, and Tony's argument that the young achievements tend to lead to less durable careers and psychological burnout the way they are pushed in Japan. There is a future component to his claim and it is that Hayata's progress is sustainably healthy in a way that Ito and Hirano were not - let's see whether that plays out or not. And it is quite possible that an early and prolonged success of Miwa might just make all that moot.

Were you guys doing that the whole time? I was solely focusing on how successful a person's career were/have been. And that, of course, includes all events.

 

[5545]

In comparing a singles career, it is not relevant to look at doubles titles. But as I pointed out, I didn't agree with Tony either, so I don't want to get hung up on arguing over that. But my point is that there is enough out there for him to look at things and make a reasonable argument. And let's remember that Hayata has won all three titles, and Tony's argument that the young achievements tend to lead to less durable careers and psychological burnout the way they are pushed in Japan. There is a future component to his claim and it is that Hayata's progress is sustainably healthy in a way that Ito and Hirano were not - let's see whether that plays out or not. And it is quite possible that an early and prolonged success of Miwa might just make all that moot.

Hayata has actually gotten injured way more frequently than Hirano and Ito and it took her so much more hard work (I'm sure we can agree on this especially Zeio who keeps calling her dumb) to catch up, so I'm not sure if her progress is completely healthy, especially the physical component.

 

[NextLevel]

Were you guys doing that the whole time? I was solely focusing on how successful a person's career were/have been. And that, of course, includes all events.

I mean, look at the thread, it was started well before you ever enter the conversation, even if we give you the benefit of being a lurker, you would be a really proud person to think that you could come in on page 52, years after the thread started and think your arguments based on public information and not really showing anything new would define how people here choose to view these things? Maybe you should stop and read the whole thread before asking what we are doing, though I wouldn't hold my breath since there are arguments people have made not just on this thread that paint different pictures?

 

[5545]

Hayata has actually gotten injured way more frequently than Hirano and Ito and it took her so much more hard work (I'm sure we can agree on this especially Zeio who keeps calling her dumb) to catch up, so I'm not sure if her progress is completely healthy, especially the physical component.

It's possible that injury will severely impede her way as it have in the past.

 

[5545]

Yes, but I was talking about purely looking at achievements statistically as a random spectator would (and judging a player’s overall career in all events, which I guess further helps Ito here since she has two silver at WTTC in doubles). Overall Ito and Hirano definitely edges out Hayata even if Hayata’s achievements were harder to obtain.

And she has beaten the most Chinese players overall so that gives her a unique advantage. While a WTTC medal is more challenging than a WC medal, they are both part of the “big three” tournaments so the difference is not too huge.

I made it obvious what I was talking about here but you chose to ignore this part:

".......and judging a player's overall career in all events". Thus I had no reason to not continue my "misplaced" argument.

 

[NextLevel]

Hayata has actually gotten injured way more frequently than Hirano and Ito and it took her so much more hard work (I'm sure we can agree on this especially Zeio who keeps calling her dumb) to catch up, so I'm not sure if her progress is completely healthy, especially the physical component.

More injured than Ito, sure, than Hirano, not so sure, and I don't live and train with them, but I will never hold hard work against anyone in table tennis since I know what it takes everyone to maintain their form and style is different despite what others may tell you, anyone who looks at Hayata's style and can't see why it takes a lot of training vs Hirano or Ito's style is blind, and good luck to those who want to put down effective hard work because they are enamored with talent because the ability to work hard is a talent too. Timo was serially injured (and that affected his training volume) and look how his career turned out. Dima who is very hard working is also serially injured. Tomokazu Harimoto's training volume has always been incredibly high in his teenage years according to the people who have seen him at tournaments. In the end, people look at what they want to look at, often to make their pet arguments.

 

[NextLevel]

I made it obvious what I was talking about here but you chose to ignore this part:

".......and judging a player's overall career in all events". Thus I had no reason to not continue my "misplaced" argument.

Okay. You came into this argument at the twenty-third hour and you have made your point. Thank you. You can go back and read Tony's post and decide whether any part of it required him to judge a player's career overall in all events.

 

[5545]

I mean, look at the thread, it was started well before you ever enter the conversation, even if we give you the benefit of being a lurker, you would be a really proud person to think that you could come in on page 52, years after the thread started and think your arguments based on public information and not really showing anything new would define how people here choose to view these things? Maybe you should stop and read the whole thread before asking what we are doing, though I wouldn't hold my breath since there are arguments people have made not just on this thread that paint different pictures?

Surprise surprise, I am not someone who spends hours on forum everyday and I have only scanned most of the popular threads here (including 52 pages of this one) in like ten minutes, so I probably don't have a 100% understanding of whatever is going on. Either way, I disagree with the argument that Tony made regardless of whether he's talking about judging based plainly singles or "overall", and I have made that clear so I'm going to stop wasting my time replying to messages.

 

[5545]

More injured than Ito, sure, than Hirano, not so sure, and I don't live and train with them, but I will never hold hard work against anyone in table tennis since I know what it takes everyone to maintain their form and style is different despite what others may tell you, anyone who looks at Hayata's style and can't see why it takes a lot of training vs Hirano or Ito's style is blind, and good luck to those who want to put down effective hard work because they are enamored with talent because the ability to work hard is a talent too. Timo was serially injured (and that affected his training volume) and look how his career turned out. Dima who is very hard working is also serially injured. Tomokazu Harimoto's training volume has always been incredibly high in his teenage years according to the people who have seen him at tournaments. In the end, people look at what they want to look at, often to make their pet arguments.

Exactly, and I have said before, injuries may impede her progress like it did at the Olympics already. At least she could have put up a better fight against SYS