Just curious how many Penholders are on TTD?

This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Aug 2016
1,841
2,808
13,658
Ryu Seung Min's footwork

Ryu Seung Min is generally said to have great footwork... was surfing around and came across his instructional "Ryu Seung Min DVD Training":


Specifically:


EDIT: my 2nd posted video was to start at 25m53s where I saw 3 footwork drills

https://youtu.be/4LaFvvgN1WM?t=25m53s
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Aug 2016
1,841
2,808
13,658
thanks OSP!
I've seen some parts of that dvd on youtube before. Too bad that I don't understand korean/japanese language, but we can still learn somethings just from the video itself. Thanks!

Anytime and I don't understand Korean/Japanese either LOL

hmmm.... 2nd vid posted was to start at 3 footwork drills ... will edit
 
  • Like
Reactions: shinshiro
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Apr 2018
148
135
364
I don't think there is anything cheap out there Shinshiro if you want Kiso Hinoki, the real Kiso Hinoki. A lot of blades that say they are Hinoki such as modes made by Sanwei, etc are from the same tree family, but not true Kiso Hinoki from Japan. And I do believe the age of the trees does have something to do with the way blades play, if they are made from wood of the Kiso Hinoki trees from Japan which are hundreds of years old. The fact that no two Kiso Hinoki blades play the same also indicates that there is some truth to this.

So, this means you have two options. Either stay on the lookout for a used one-ply Kiso Hinoki blade by Darker which is not that easy because most people do not let go of these. I will never sell mine. Or you can get one made by Kevin at American Hinoki. His blades are excellent and that would be better than any Taiwan or China made Jpen blade.

Some of the woods that Kevin use make beautiful blades that play very well also. I have a Lutz Spruce Jpen that is not quite the same as my Darker Speed 90, but I reallly cannot find any fault with that blade and if I did not have the Darker, I would say the Lutz Spruce would have have served me wonderfully well. In fact I still play with it a lot. They are so close that I can practice with one and play with the other with minimal adjustment.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Aug 2016
1,841
2,808
13,658
I don't have official word that the blade I used to use was made by Kevin at American Hinoki, but I believe it was his WRC 9mm CPen. I won it in one of member NextLevel's contests and I used it for ~6 months ... used it to self-learn shakehand backhand so that i can learn RPB. The blade was smaller and my hand/wrist was only used to one rubber, but using the smaller blade with 2 rubbers on was ok on my hand/wrist. The only aspect of the blade that i didn't like or get used to was the big round handle. I prefer a flatter and less thick than that WRC 9mm. It was a fast blade, perhaps a little TOO fast for me, but i was able to start my RPB journey/learning because of that blade and for that it will always have a special place in my heart.
 
  • Like
Reactions: shinshiro
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Aug 2016
262
180
1,106
I don't think there is anything cheap out there Shinshiro if you want Kiso Hinoki, the real Kiso Hinoki. A lot of blades that say they are Hinoki such as modes made by Sanwei, etc are from the same tree family, but not true Kiso Hinoki from Japan. And I do believe the age of the trees does have something to do with the way blades play, if they are made from wood of the Kiso Hinoki trees from Japan which are hundreds of years old. The fact that no two Kiso Hinoki blades play the same also indicates that there is some truth to this.

So, this means you have two options. Either stay on the lookout for a used one-ply Kiso Hinoki blade by Darker which is not that easy because most people do not let go of these. I will never sell mine. Or you can get one made by Kevin at American Hinoki. His blades are excellent and that would be better than any Taiwan or China made Jpen blade.

Some of the woods that Kevin use make beautiful blades that play very well also. I have a Lutz Spruce Jpen that is not quite the same as my Darker Speed 90, but I reallly cannot find any fault with that blade and if I did not have the Darker, I would say the Lutz Spruce would have have served me wonderfully well. In fact I still play with it a lot. They are so close that I can practice with one and play with the other with minimal adjustment.

Yeah, Kevin make good blades. I also have one made of WRC, but its shape was adapted to RBP, and the blade was also very light to play with only one rubber (well, not that I like heavy blades, but 64g is a bit too light for traditional jpen haha)

Yes, I saw your blades on mytt, I'm the one that created that thread haha

About cheap kiso hinoki blades, I guess all kokutaku bishu series is made of kiso hinoki. Kokutaku D50 is the 2nd cheapest (even tough it is not exactly cheap) in that line and it is made of KH (it was written on blade face), so I believe all the others are also KH (includind D40, which is the cheapest). But I don't know how much different it plays from one to another...I have no idea what criteria they use to differentiate a cheap kiso hinoki to an expensive one, and also no idea about the differences in playability between them. There are basically no information about the cheaper kokutaku blades, only a few posts about their high end blades (bishu no.100 (super cho tokusen) and cho super cho tokusen (kiwami)).

Even tough price is a big part of the problem, I'm more curious about the differences between one blade to another. For example, what is the difference in playability between a KH 10mm from different brands/models, like Kokutaku kiwami, Darker speed 90, Ariex Excellent A, Butterfly Cypress, ITC Athena RSM, KTS Quantum XO, etc...there is too little information about them on internet. Just a few people play jpen do there is basically almost no reviews, and even the brands themselves don't seem to say much about their blades. All this mystery makes KH wood to be even more "mystical" haha.

Probably a heavier WRC will play very very similar to a KH blade. But I know that if I buy an alternative to KH, my EJ disease will force me to buy a real KH blade after some time :(...that's why I'm not much willing to buying alternatives, even tough they are good ones.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Aug 2016
262
180
1,106
I don't have official word that the blade I used to use was made by Kevin at American Hinoki, but I believe it was his WRC 9mm CPen. I won it in one of member NextLevel's contests and I used it for ~6 months ... used it to self-learn shakehand backhand so that i can learn RPB. The blade was smaller and my hand/wrist was only used to one rubber, but using the smaller blade with 2 rubbers on was ok on my hand/wrist. The only aspect of the blade that i didn't like or get used to was the big round handle. I prefer a flatter and less thick than that WRC 9mm. It was a fast blade, perhaps a little TOO fast for me, but i was able to start my RPB journey/learning because of that blade and for that it will always have a special place in my heart.

I also tried to do RBP for the first time with an WRC made by Kevin. My blade was desinged to it (super sanded on left wing for my index finger - I'm left handed). But mine was light, so it was on the slow side.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OldschoolPenholder
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Apr 2018
148
135
364
In my opinion if you want something that is closest to the quality, play and feel of a Darker Speed 90, then go for the top-end Kokutaku. Some actually say the Kokutaku is better and I would not doubt them. Like I said, the manufacturing process has a lot to do with the end product. The straightness of the lines, the tightness of the grain are key factors.

If you want the heaviest blades, it will probably be a Butterfly. If you want the lightest you will probably have better luck looking for a Kokutaku. The Butterfly blade is not really worth the price since it is not technically a better product. Not saying it is bad, just that it is not worth paying extra for. I would say the same for Xiom. Great blades but not worth the price.

In my opinion Kiso Hinoki blades that are 10mm thick already pack a punch, so you don't really want a very heavy blade. An ideal blade would be under 95 grams. An exceptional one would be under 85 grams. My blade is 84 grams. I do not know of a sub-80 gram 10mm Jpen blade. I don't think I would want one either.

Butterfly blades are heavier, so also faster. This is not to say the Kokutaku or Darker are slow. The Darker will match the Butterfly in speed if you want it to. The speed will depend on your arm speed, action and what you put into it. So I prefer the Darker for this "stored speed" that the user unleashes.

As for whether you will want to eventually buy a Kiso Hinoki blade if you fall in love with the cheaper alternatives, yes you will.

Edit: The Darker blades are the softest so they have the best control.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Aug 2016
262
180
1,106
In my opinion if you want something that is closest to the quality, play and feel of a Darker Speed 90, then go for the top-end Kokutaku. Some actually say the Kokutaku is better and I would not doubt them. Like I said, the manufacturing process has a lot to do with the end product. The straightness of the lines, the tightness of the grain are key factors.

If you want the heaviest blades, it will probably be a Butterfly. If you want the lightest you will probably have better luck looking for a Kokutaku. The Butterfly blade is not really worth the price since it is not technically a better product. Not saying it is bad, just that it is not worth paying extra for. I would say the same for Xiom. Great blades but not worth the price.

In my opinion Kiso Hinoki blades that are 10mm thick already pack a punch, so you don't really want a very heavy blade. An ideal blade would be under 95 grams. An exceptional one would be under 85 grams. My blade is 84 grams. I do not know of a sub-80 gram 10mm Jpen blade. I don't think I would want one either.

Butterfly blades are heavier, so also faster. This is not to say the Kokutaku or Darker are slow. The Darker will match the Butterfly in speed if you want it to. The speed will depend on your arm speed, action and what you put into it. So I prefer the Darker for this "stored speed" that the user unleashes.

As for whether you will want to eventually buy a Kiso Hinoki blade if you fall in love with the cheaper alternatives, yes you will.

Edit: The Darker blades are the softest so they have the best control.

Nice post. Thanks.

Regarding thickness x speed, do you think that thickness alone is a factor that influences blade speed? I mean, if two blades weight the same but one is 10mm and other is 9mm, the 10mm will be faster? (considering all other things the same for both blades)
I can understand why weight generates more speed, but I don't know how/why thickness affects it too.

And speaking of hinoki weight, hardness and thickness, Ariex has now some nice hinoki boards on their website. They specified all these three characteristics for all 331 hinoki boards (and with pictures) they have there, so you can select what suits you more and make a custom order. VERY nice! (and VERY expensive too!)
 
  • Like
Reactions: OldschoolPenholder
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Aug 2016
2,607
1,805
4,649
Read 3 reviews
I will start (again) to play with jpen tomorrow.
I'm a shakehand player. I have tried jpen for a few months in the past but I couldn`t get used to TPB, but I'm motivated to try it once more. For me, seeing a jpenner playing is more enjoyable and also RSM is one of my idols.

Wish me lucky :D

Talking about jpen, what do you recommend for a 1 ply kiso hinoki blade?
I play for 3.5 years so I know the basics, but I lack consistency. I consider myself a beginner. I want a blade that I can use for several years as I develop more and more, I don't want to EJ too much on jpen (they are too expensive lol). I have a cheap america cypress jpen bought from taiwan that I will use to play for now, but I want also to have one kiso hinoki one. Any suggestions?
Yes real Kiso Hinoki is hard to find. It has a special feel that many people are addicted to, including myself.

I have a used Butterfly Cypress-S. It's a real Japanese Kiso Hinoki made in Japan. Black metal tag. I also have two Darker Speed 90 which I will keep as my collection.

I can make a deal with you for the Butterfly blade. Just PM me if interested

Passionate about TT
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Aug 2016
1,841
2,808
13,658
Some comments about last night:

1. Hot and humid in NYC/my club. Felt out of it even after hyrdrating myself. Not sure if the heat/humidity affected the ball/table/rubbers and/or me.
2. My serves were 60% successful. Had

3. My RPB was 60-70% successful. Had a few RPB loop down the line winners. Had 1 RPB smash on a high ball. Pure luck. Although I don't recall doing a NextLevel whip RPB stroke, I had 1 sweet RPB whip
4. Concentrated on RPB and tried not using FH. 4x I used TPB :(
5. Played 3 matches and lost all 3. Have been practicing about 90% of the time instead of matchplay in the past 2 yrs. In the past 3 weeks or so, started playing matches again. I got no game LOL


Despite the losses, and the heat/humidity, happy that slowly my RPB is coming along as well getting used to the 'new' (now old setup). It's been about 7 weeks of 2-3x/week playing with the Taksim/Donic/Xiom setup.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Aug 2016
262
180
1,106
I had my first session with jpen last night.
I had some difficult to close the angle on shots near my elbow direction. Maybe I should try to do a TBP with blade head pointing down instead of side/up? (and improve my footwork of course, but this will take an eternity haha). Aside that, TBP was a bit better than I remembered. Not bad!

I also had some trouble on forehand shots. My stroke felt a bit awkward since blade angle is different.
A friend gave me some tips to improve my mechanics and spin. He said I should point blade head a little bit more downards and use more wrist movement on FH shots. The first tip worked well, it felt more comfortable and natural that way. I think it will take a bit more time to get right the wrist movement, but I can see some nice spin potential there. I'm excited!
 
  • Like
Reactions: OldschoolPenholder
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Aug 2016
1,841
2,808
13,658
I had my first session with jpen last night.
I had some difficult to close the angle on shots near my elbow direction. Maybe I should try to do a TBP with blade head pointing down instead of side/up? (and improve my footwork of course, but this will take an eternity haha). Aside that, TBP was a bit better than I remembered. Not bad!

I also had some trouble on forehand shots. My stroke felt a bit awkward since blade angle is different.
A friend gave me some tips to improve my mechanics and spin. He said I should point blade head a little bit more downards and use more wrist movement on FH shots. The first tip worked well, it felt more comfortable and natural that way. I think it will take a bit more time to get right the wrist movement, but I can see some nice spin potential there. I'm excited!

Excellent shinshiro! JPen is a total mystery for me LOL. One day I may try a friend's JPen but for now, having fun learning RPB on a CPen.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Aug 2016
1,841
2,808
13,658
Last Tuesday night, I played and lost 3 matches. But some progress made on RPB for my gameplay!

I am starting to integrate RPB punch/block to my gameplay which made me happy, although not perfect form/technique/stroke. And I did, under pressure, hit some TPB, but hit the balls horribly. TPB seems so foreign to me now! Very strange. It's only been 1-3x a week for about 7 or 8 weeks now of seriously trying to RPB and it seems I cannot hit TPB anymore.

Sadly, I still rush my shots and mostly lose the point. A friend advised me to just play steady and return the ball. If my partner kills the ball, at least it's not me losing the point because I rushed my shot and missed. Return the ball and let my partner make a mistake or give me an easy high percentage ball to attack. Patience is a virtue.

Going to my club tonight, will see if i can practice half of the time and try to get in 1 or 2 matches.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mky

mky

This user has no status.

mky

This user has no status.
Member
Aug 2016
38
31
115
I have been watching some penhold service videos and came across the LGL serve. What is the advantage of having the right leg in front instead of the left? Not many people use it either, I have only seen Wang Hao and Yan An use it occasionally in a match.
(LGL serve at 2:12)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: OldschoolPenholder
says The sticky bit is stuck.
says The sticky bit is stuck.
Well-Known Member
Jan 2017
2,771
2,619
8,158
Read 8 reviews
I have been watching some penhold service videos and came across the LGL serve. What is the advantage of having the right leg in front instead of the left? Not many people use it either, I have only seen Wang Hao and Yan An use it occasionally in a match.

More freedom in placement. Parallels and diagonals both can be reached in that stance with that serve, both long and short.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Aug 2016
1,841
2,808
13,658
I have been watching some penhold service videos and came across the LGL serve. What is the advantage of having the right leg in front instead of the left? Not many people use it either, I have only seen Wang Hao and Yan An use it occasionally in a match.
(LGL serve at 2:12)

Great question mky! Wonder why more have not followed LGL's lead.

In addition to yoass' great point, I believe with the right foot in front, it's easier/faster to get back into ready position than if the left foot was in front. With the left foot in front, the right foot needs to take a full step or so to get the body into ready stance whereas with the right foot in front, it's a quarter or half-step back into ready position.

LGL was active a little after I stopped playing. I never tried his style in serving. I will have a very hard time adapting but will try it soon. Thank you for bringing it up!

More freedom in placement. Parallels and diagonals both can be reached in that stance with that serve, both long and short.

Great observation yoass! I never noticed that but after reading your post I can see it now. i sometimes struggle with short serves as well as rocket serves to FH side from pendulum serves. Thank you yoass!
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Aug 2016
1,841
2,808
13,658
Last night, I felt I had a very good practice with 4 different partners.

1. Despite my FH loop totally disappearing from my toolbox, I was able to hit steadily enough FH to FH with a woman partner I've hit with before. Consciously trying to relax and not rush my stroke as well as trying to meet ball earlier. Good and steady FH from me. WHEW!

We then went BH-BH ... she is a TPB and steady blocker and aggressive puncher. I started RPB punching ok enough. Then I went to flat hitting 50-75% power/speed ... later I started RPB hit/loop 50% power/speed/spin.

Lot of people waiting and I thanked her for the practice and took a break.

2. Next I hit with a friend who advised me Tues night that i should look to just return the ball and ignore if i lost the point or not from my partner's return ... as long as I didn't have an "unforced error" ... just play steady and not go for the killshot ... just return the ball ... dont rush my shots. We hit FH-FH and same as first partner, i looked to hit steady, meet ball earlier and don't rush my shot. Felt good. He started FH looping and I FH block him.

Then BH-BH - he's a JPen with good punch ... he has seen me play/practice through the year and amazed at my RPB transition is halfway decent. I punched and then i went to spin. Good practice and I thanked him for the advice of just playing steady and return the ball.

3. Lost badly to my friend on Tuesday night ... he is at my level or 1 level below. He suggested instead of a match (as there was no one waiting for next) we just practice. And before I even suggested to practice points as ttmonster advised, my friend suggested it! The Universe works in mysterious ways!!

I think he suggested it partly because he knows my serves give him trouble and he wanted to practice serve return and I get to work matchplay situations without keeping score. I was able to serve rockets to his FH, and as he is a lefty, it's crosscourt for me and I was able to 50% of the time 3rd ball RPB punch down the line. It shocked both him and me LOL He has seen me concentrate on RPB so most of his returns were to my BH to help out.

He mentioned next time I hit with him we do the same thing again. We practiced for an hour! Great practice!! I thanked him for his time and practice.

4. Hit with a friend who is maybe 1 or 2 levels below me. He also wanted to practice matchplay without keeping score. Although he wanted to start BH-BH and on 4th ball+ we can hit anywhere. Didn't want me to serve. From previous partners I really started 'flowing' on RPB, mixing up blocks, punches, flat hitting and spinning. Felt good. Hit for 30 mins and was tired and time to go home. Thanked him for the practice.

He has watched my RPB progress from the sidelines and complimented me on how it's coming along for me.

Felt somewhat in the RPB zone last night and really started flowing as it got later.

Had fun and enjoyed the practice.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ttmonster
Top