Just curious how many Penholders are on TTD?

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Dang google auto translate just isn't there yet. Who knows if it ever will be.

Nonetheless, learn what you can.

I really like Cazuo's youtube channel here. A good one to subscribe to.

In addition to being left handed :) he has one of the nastier TPB flicks I've ever seen. Looks like here kind demonstrates that Xu Xin FH bananna flick and transitioning that into his amazing TPB punch/flick.

Good stuff to learn here simply by watching.

 
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Dang google auto translate just isn't there yet. Who knows if it ever will be.

Nonetheless, learn what you can.

I really like Cazuo's youtube channel here. A good one to subscribe to.

In addition to being left handed :) he has one of the nastier TPB flicks I've ever seen. Looks like here kind demonstrates that Xu Xin FH bananna flick and transitioning that into his amazing TPB punch/flick.

Good stuff to learn here simply by watching.


I follow his channel too, it is very nice. Quite rare to see a brazilian channel with some content about jpen techniques!
In this video he shows 3 types of "surprise receptions".
The first one is a FH flick. He said that you have to wait a bit longer to make sure what is the spin of the ball. Then, you can flick applying [side]backspin or [side]topspin. You have to train to be able to vary this movement.
The second one you have to use your body. You have to do a body feint.
The third one he just says that is often used by Simon Gauzy, and it has a lot of side spin.

He doesn't talk about details, his video is more "visual oriented". But I hope this can help you.
 
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The first one is a FH flick. He said that you have to wait a bit longer to make sure what is the spin of the ball. Then, you can flick applying [side]backspin or [side]topspin. You have to train to be able to vary this movement.

Yeah it's an interesting shot I use rarely primarily because so many servers on the amateur level here serve long and I simply don't practice it enough. But I've come the conclusion for me it works in these situations.

- Anything with some form of backspin, sidespin, or even no-spin, go for it. You can do the shot he executes vs backspin at 0:45. Vs sidespin, you'd come a little more on the side of the ball vs so much underneath as he demonstrates.

But vs any form of topspin, for the longest time, I didn't like how you keep curving that 1/2 circle motion around and on top of the ball. Felt like when I would do it and hit it in, the ball didn't have much power since it's such a wristy shot.

Thus, I've come to the conclusion that I simply need to recognize earlier the spin of their serve. If it's short and has any type of topspin on it, best to just do a normal FH flick.

Vs anything else that's short (back & side, etc) this can be a good option. I just don't like it vs topspin really.
 
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Last night play/practiced 2 hrs straight.

With first partner who always takes our matches seriously, I played semi-serious, almost using RPB exclusively as well as serve Wang Hao style almost the whole match. I lost 1st, won 2nd, then noticed he was super-serious, so I just played to return the ball as well as work my RPB and Wang Hao serves. Lost next game close, and 4th game lost at 3 LOL

My RPB loops were about 60% ... some that i missed i didn't lift and go forward as much as was needed, had about 5 brush topspin slow spinny loops which set up FH smash or RPB smash. Felt good to set up with slow spinny loop 2nd ball and then the putaway 4th ball.


Next practiced with a 1900 member ... always a challenge for me to hit with him ... he is still trying to get used to a new setup and although I'm about 2 months in on serious RPB work, i'm still getting used to the weight, new extended fingers grip, RPB, new rubbers, etc.

Happy to report my wrist and fingers doesn't hurt as much. I noticed I curled my fingers a little and not as relaxed on the overall grip so after a night of play my fingers ache for 2 or 3 days. So i tried just extended with no curl - no achiness, however a few more balls hitting my fingers LOL


With my 2nd partner, I got into a 50-75% zone/zen/flow state ... at best though we hit 5 or 6 balls continuous all due to my lack of consistency ... but when we were had those rallies of 5/6 balls we both were happy and egged each other on ... we both know I'm a little less skilled than him, but he has hit with me before and seen me hit with others and knows I'm steady enough. i just feel bad missing easy balls as I am trying to change from TPB to RPB. My timing on blocks, flat hits and punches are getting better. I did not spin vs him, i took the role of blocker mostly and just return the ball and he started flat hitting as well as bh looping.

If the incoming ball is strong and powerful, I can 60% of the time RPB block/punch/flat hit it back ... I have not tried RPB looping strong powerful incoming balls all that much ... what I need to learn and test myself on are the slow and weak balls ... on those i need to ensure I have the proper timing as well as RPB punch stroke to return the ball ... i'm 75 % confident i can RPB flat hit the weak balls back.

Itching to go to my new club and hit with my friend the coach ... alas, it will have to wait for next week. Tonight going to my daughter's HS and be with her for a college fair/info session.
 
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Happy to report my wrist and fingers doesn't hurt as much. I noticed I curled my fingers a little and not as relaxed on the overall grip so after a night of play my fingers ache for 2 or 3 days. So i tried just extended with no curl - no achiness, however a few more balls hitting my fingers LOL

I feel your pain. I've been there and that was somewhat of an ever constant annoyance for me. So much to where I tried not to hold the blade and high up on the neck opting for a somewhat looser grip further down the blade so my fingers don't protrude so much on the blade face.

I think it just takes practice and hey you get to train your eye-hand coordination. :)

...

Hit with my training partner today. Really focused on more steady play. Particularly in the service receive game. I chopped or just returned safety probably 90% of the time only attacking the other 10%. Just enough to keep him honest. That's a pretty big jump from how I use to play it.

I played great. Told myself in my head that not only will I return his serves short, but I will focus on placement. Namely, his BH because he likes to FH loop 3rd ball a lot and I was determined to win the short game vs him.

Anyways, played great. But then the final 15 minutes, I really tried that service return Cazuo was demonstrating above. I don't perform mine quite like his. Never have. My stroke is more wristy. I'd say it looks a lot more like this, just not as aggressive, as Xu Xin does here. But you get the wristy part.

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My goodness this return gave him fits. The amount of side you can generate from this motion makes it like they're having to 3rd ball a serve right back at them. He even mentioned it after practice that this new technique gave him fits.

What I like about it is that it feels so safe. It's still feels like a passive return but there's definitely a lot of funk on it going back to them so in a way it's also like you're attacking their serve.

If there's backspin on the ball, you come more under the ball. If there's more sidepsin, you come more on the side. The more there's side or side top, the more touch you have to have. Have to hit this ball thin. Otherwise it's easy to float long. I'm slowly learning and getting better at that yes you can even chop or push topspin serves if your touch is good and if the ball isn't coming at you too fast. I'm liking it.

So all of a sudden I feel like there's more spin options to give back to them on their 3rd ball. No longer is it simply returning backspin to them if you push. Or returning topspin to them if you attack. Now going back to them could be back, side in either direction (more on that in a moment), top or I use a LP play of which who knows what spin will be on their. Depends on their serve. All in all, I like it.

So on the sidespin part. You'll notice in the Xu Xin gif here, he's applying sidespin one direction. If you want to apply sidespin going the other way, you have to scrap this motion and instead go for that Ma Lin TPB sidepin chop he was famous for where your blade comes across your body. The motion Xu Xin does here goes away from his body. So in the other direction.

I couldn't find a good gif of that Ma Lin sidespin chop-block but I assume 90% of you know what shot I'm referring to.

Lastly, take note if you do this if you're doing this shot on a side-spin serve, are you continuing their sidespin from their serve? Or going against it. IMO if you're going against their sidespin with your motion, be careful not to send the ball long. The ball will bite harder into your rubber. If you're going with the spin, the ball won't bite as hard and you have to put a little more into it just to get it over the net since you're actually not hitting into the ball all that much applying forward momentum. Remember, you're hitting the side of the ball. Just my amateur 2 cents. :)
 
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Continuing my RPB journey ...

Last Thursday - nothing spectacular to report ... played 3 matches ... lost all 3 ... but slowly the RPB is integrated into my matchplay.

Tuesday night ... played 3 matches ... one vs a lobber/fisher i've played before ... lost to him all but one match in the past ... he's like 4 or 5 and 1 vs me. We are about the same level ... he is consistent and a steady lobber. Playing him and one other has slowly convinced me I should start wearing my glasses when I play ... he adds sidespin under the table and i don't see it until it's late. before i left, i helped warm up a friend who is 1 or 2 levels above me. I like practicing with him because it's very challenging for me to block his loops. i FH looped a little but with my intense concentration on getting decent in RPB that i've neglected my FH looping ... no confidence at all in it. I was able to work some RPB loops and he blocked for me. Slowly but surely getting there.

Last night I played 3 matches ... 2 on the 1800-1900 table ... above my level significantly. I find I still rush my shots ... when I consciously slow down and focus on being steady and return the ball instead of trying to win it outright with a 125% power/speed smash/loop, I am 'in the game' and have a chance ... lose at 8 or 9... when i rush i lose at 4 or so. Sometimes i slow down too late and lose at 6. The point is i still rush my shots. That's the bad news, the good news is that my RPB punch and block is slowly working. Despite losing the point at times, I am getting a little steadier with RPB punch/block. There are quite a few times the ball hits my extended fingers. I've tried to curl my fingers but it throws off my RPB strokes/face angle/etc. Also curled fingers result in some achiness/discomfort for ~2 days. Extended fingers i feel no achiness/discomfort at all.

Sadly no video, but i had a RPB loop around the net shot! Surprised both myself and my partner LOL

I haven't hit with my coach friend in a few weeks due to conflicting schedules. Although my RPB is coming along decently IMO, it may be less than proper timing/stroke/form etc. Will have to hit with him to see what he says of my progress or lack of LOL Some of my 1800-1900 friends/partners compliment me on my RPB progress as they have seen me start off struggling regaining my TPB game after a 30+ yrs break and then see me change up and try to acquire the RPB strokes.

May all the net and edge balls go your way my friends!
 
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This was the 4th (I guess...) week of my jpen jorney.
After almost a month, I finally can see some light of hope for my TBP!!!

During the past two weeks I tried to figure out how to be able to do a quick FH-BH-FH transition using the "advanced grip" (thumb on blade edge/ behind the blade wing) instead of regular grip. I could do the AG but not fast enough. After a lot of thought, I found the "secret": my ready stance!! More specifically, my grip when I am on ready stance! I always hold my racket FH oriented (with thumb pressing the wing), and in order to do a quick FH-BH transition, I realized that I had to grip BH oriented, with my thumb always on the edge! After each FH stroke, I have to release pressure on thumb and do a small adjustment on its position as I would prepare for BH, at the same time I'm "reseting" my position! (on another words, when I'm reseting after a FH stroke, I have to relax my thumb and hold the racket with just the index and middle finger. This will make the blade angle adjust naturally for the BH, and I just have to position my thumb to the edge). It seems obvious now, but it was hard for me to figure it out! The solution was so simple!

PS: I think this text became a little confusing, it is difficult for me to explain it in english, I'm sorry :(

The problem now is that I have to be 100% of the time focused on my grip, it will take a while for it to become automatic, specially when I am pressured by my oponnent. I'm also messing my grip many times during rallies on FH-BH-FH transitions, it will take time to master this (this is actually the most difficult part), but now it doesn't seem impossible anymore!

I also asked two jpen players about how they grip when doing TBP. One of them uses the "advanced grip" (thumb behind blade wing). I asked how can he do the grip change, and he said the same thing that I had tought, so it confirmed that I'm on the right way! (though I still can't put my thumb behing the wing, I put only on edge, it is already better than the regular grip). Of course that other players can do it differently, but it is good to know that the solution I found is viable! I'm so happy hahahahaha

Now that my main problem was solved, I only have to practice, practice and practice!
Man, I'm sooo relieved know! hahaha
 
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I'm Chinese and I used the penhold grip when starting playing table tennis as a kid. But when I've become a member of a local table tennis association. Then the coach said that I had to change into shakehand grip. So I am not a penhold player anymore.
 
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Because they don't allow penhold grip ? why ? .. .just curious .. .
I'm Chinese and I used the penhold grip when starting playing table tennis as a kid. But when I've become a member of a local table tennis association. Then the coach said that I had to change into shakehand grip. So I am not a penhold player anymore.
 
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Because they don't allow penhold grip ? why ? .. .just curious .. .
Because the coach couldn't teach me anything with the penhold grip. He was a Dutchman. So he wasn't familiar with the penhold techniques. This happened in the early 80s when I was a kid. I immigrated to Holland at young age. I've forgotten to tell you that!
 
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Okay got it ... I remember we had a person from an European country ( can't remember which one ) who had joined one of the summer camps I attended and he told us that for some reason penhold was not allowed in serious leagues in his country ... I thought it was one such weird situation ...
Because the coach couldn't teach me anything with the penhold grip. He was a Dutchman. So he wasn't familiar with the penhold techniques. This happened in the early 80s when I was a kid. I immigrated to Holland at young age. I've forgotten to tell you that!
 
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Penhold has effectively been banned in Korea, most coaches will not take a player for lessons using penhold, unless they are already very good, like Div 2 or Div 1 level. There are almost zero coaches remaining who will start someone off with penhold, they almost all insist on starting off penhold and STRONGLY ask those using penhold to convert.

At some time before I got to Korea in 2009, collectively, the coaches realized that there was little chance of a penholder making it to upper levels, so why bother trying a doomed path? They decided to "Bite the Bullet" as Americans would say to cut their losses and pursue a way with more prospects of success.

It was the lack of a consistent easy to learn effective pressure BH that tipped the scales there. Better yet, we could say it was the development of the BH as a pressure or point winning tool that did in the penhold style in Korea. A penholder learning new compared to a shakehander is already at a disadvantage and it looked to get worse. C-Pen TPB was a possibility, and a minority .05% of the playing population are good at it, but nowadays penhold in Korea is left to the O40 / O50 crowd of hardcore never give up.
 
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I'm Chinese and I used the penhold grip when starting playing table tennis as a kid. But when I've become a member of a local table tennis association. Then the coach said that I had to change into shakehand grip. So I am not a penhold player anymore.

Nei ho BORNINHKG! Welcome to TTD and this thread!!

Because the coach couldn't teach me anything with the penhold grip. He was a Dutchman. So he wasn't familiar with the penhold techniques. This happened in the early 80s when I was a kid. I immigrated to Holland at young age. I've forgotten to tell you that!

Things happen for a reason. Take advantage of having access to a coach. Sad in a way, there's no PH coach, but get the foundation of TT into you, if you haven't already, and get proficient in SH. At some point in the future, you either can self-learn (and follow Wang Hao's instructional on YouTube for example) or move or a new coach shows up and can teach PH. You never know what the future entails, just prepare for the day that you can play PH if you truly want to play PH.

Just curious, how many years did you play PH? How many years of SH play?

Welcome once again!
 
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Penhold has effectively been banned in Korea, most coaches will not take a player for lessons using penhold, unless they are already very good, like Div 2 or Div 1 level. There are almost zero coaches remaining who will start someone off with penhold, they almost all insist on starting off penhold and STRONGLY ask those using penhold to convert.

:(

At some time before I got to Korea in 2009, collectively, the coaches realized that there was little chance of a penholder making it to upper levels, so why bother trying a doomed path? They decided to "Bite the Bullet" as Americans would say to cut their losses and pursue a way with more prospects of success.

It was the lack of a consistent easy to learn effective pressure BH that tipped the scales there. Better yet, we could say it was the development of the BH as a pressure or point winning tool that did in the penhold style in Korea. A penholder learning new compared to a shakehander is already at a disadvantage and it looked to get worse. C-Pen TPB was a possibility, and a minority .05% of the playing population are good at it, but nowadays penhold in Korea is left to the O40 / O50 crowd of hardcore never give up.

Just curious why most if not all Korean as well as Japanese PH play TPB? Granted I do not know all the K and J PHs, but they seem all TPB. Thanks to Suga D, i know of one JP who plays RPB! (Qiu Dang plays for Germany).

Wonder why they don't embrace RPB given it's been around ~20 yrs ... since Liu Guo Liang.

And I'm speaking as an oldschool PH who loves TPB and never thought I would be able to learn RPB and yet here I am, learning RPB.
 
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Last night I played 3 matches. Still looking to integrate RPB into my gameplay, not have incoming ball hit my fingers, etc. I lost track, it's more than 2 months into dedicated RPB play

Happy to report no hand/wrist/finger discomfort/achiness for 2 or more weeks now. It was after I extended my fingers instead of having it somewhat curled has the discomfort/achiness gone away. On the flip side (pun intended) the balls are hitting my fingers a bit more now lol.

1. My first time vs a lefty JPen who lobs and has a good TPB punch. We recognize and greet each other in the past, but never had a chance to play him until last night. I lost 3-0 on close games. I have a chance to beat him if I go oldschool OSPH and go HULK SMASH mode, but i was looking to return the ball, be steady, and go Wang Hao and use RPB as much as I can. I had 3 corkscrew serves vs him off of my FH pendulum serves! Ball kicked wickedly. Happy that my rocket serves are getting consistent and I am getting comfortable with my new, now old, Taksim blade on the rocket.

2. Played B. who is ~1900, a few levels above me. In the past I had close games but still losses playing my osph/tpb/loop/smash game. After dedicated RPB play, i have generally lost 3-0 to him at 4 or 6 pts. I had some highlight-worthy moments but for the most part, I underestimate the speed of his shots and slowly getting used to RPB punch/block and adding that to my play. Most of the members I play with know I've been concentrating on RPB and noticed some improvement on my part and mostly help me by hitting shots to my BH. Once in awhile though they keep me honest by serving short or hitting to my FH lol

One note to add: despite my belief I'm serving heavy spin, he returns them easily. Then i had a lightbulb moment and recall NextLevel's advice on no spin serves. I started mixing in the no spin serves and lo and behold he goes to return aggresively only to have the balls fly up and not hit the table. Very interesting! I cannot still believe in no spin serves but my pea brain understands it this way: partner thinks it's heavy spin coming at him, so he compensates for the heavy spin ... but since it's no spin, the balls fly out.

3. Played Y. a SH with LP on his BH. Generally lose to him 3-0, sometimes 3-1. A month or 2 ago, had the match of my life when I won the first set from him 21-19. However, he has been very supportive and encouraging me to continue with RPB and that game, he gave me easy shots to my RPB. Since then, he has mixed up his play instead of babying me. But by babying me, he has shown me that I have it in me and can acquire the RPB techniques and integrate it successfully in my gameplay.

---

Baby steps, after over 2 months, perhaps 3 months now of dedicated RPB training/play I don't expect it to be a success right away and given my lack of consistent playing, I am happy with my RPB and having fun with it. Frustrating and Satisfying at the same times.

May all the net and edge balls go your way my Friends!

p.s. i've also started serving Wang Hao style instead of standard FH pendulum and BH serves. I may not be serving it properly, but i visualize me as WH and serving the his hook/punch serve. My expression of the serves though perhaps comes across half hook/punch and half tomahawk without the deep crouch.
 
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Match between two japanese jpenholders:


Tsubasa Moria vs XIA.
I don't have background of them, but I believe both are high level amateurs, at least XIA. I know that Tsubasa played a little on Czech, but I have no idea if it was only for training or if it was a professional league.

Anyways, enjoy the match. Quite rare to see a match between two jpen. Very enjoyable to me.
 
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