Just curious how many Penholders are on TTD?

[shinshiro]

I had my second week of jpen attempt.
My FH stroke is still a bit strange due to different racket angle from shakehand. I can adjust it on drills but I have difficult to do the same on matches, it is not automatic yet. I think I can partially solve this problem by sanding the wing where my index finger is positioned, so I would be able to close racket angle more easily. But I don't want to sand it because it will look uglier hahaha. I will try for a few more weeks to see if I can adjust my mechanics.

 

[Ranger-man]

I had my second week of jpen attempt.
My FH stroke is still a bit strange due to different racket angle from shakehand. I can adjust it on drills but I have difficult to do the same on matches, it is not automatic yet. I think I can partially solve this problem by sanding the wing where my index finger is positioned, so I would be able to close racket angle more easily. But I don't want to sand it because it will look uglier hahaha. I will try for a few more weeks to see if I can adjust my mechanics.

I sand both wings. The index finger side as well as the thumb side. It makes it much better and does not look bad since both sides are sanded evenly. The level of sanding depends on what works for you. I just sand enough that it becomes rounded and does not cut into my finger since I can grip it just fine without the sanding too.

 

[Hurricane_boss]

Yo guys, I'm a modern cpen player! about 6 months ago I switched from old school one sided penhold to the modern penhold with RPB. I just have one problem though, when the ball comes to me at a medium speed, I can do RBP but if it is a fast ball them I just automatically switch to TPB. My muscle memory wants me to do TPB but I'm forcing it to do RPB. Does anyone have any tips? thanks

hi, I'm posting on this thread again after about 1 year after my switch to RPB from TPB and about 6 months after I wrote this post. I have now pretty much mastered RPB, and if a ball is smashed fast to my backhand I now do a RPB block instead of a TPB block . Also, aside from that, a brand new problem emerged.

I used to play more or less the same style as Xu Xin and Ryu-Seung min, meaning I am extremely forehand dominant, but now, I feel like I'm slowing converting to the Wang hao style, (meaning that I am playing more of an allround style) and sometimes when there's clearly a ball I can pivot and hit with my much more powerful forehand, I now hit with backhand. I think this is due to the fact that during this one year I keep forcing myself to do RPB and now my whole game is affected.

Any tips besides practice more on this?

 

[PingPanda]

I have a similar problem though my forehand likely wasn't as good as most penholders. My issue was that a coach taught me RPB and it's my better shot so I frequently cheat over to loop or drive with my backhand. However, in the grand scheme of things it's probably not a good thing so what I've been doing is playing match type drills where I just concentrate on stepping around. A training partner told me that stepping around is more of an attitude. He says you have to constantly be looking for it. With my RPB being better than my forehand I just don't look for those opportunities. So I'm more training a mindset to overcome this.

 

[shinshiro]

hi, I'm posting on this thread again after about 1 year after my switch to RPB from TPB and about 6 months after I wrote this post. I have now pretty much mastered RPB, and if a ball is smashed fast to my backhand I now do a RPB block instead of a TPB block . Also, aside from that, a brand new problem emerged.

I used to play more or less the same style as Xu Xin and Ryu-Seung min, meaning I am extremely forehand dominant, but now, I feel like I'm slowing converting to the Wang hao style, (meaning that I am playing more of an allround style) and sometimes when there's clearly a ball I can pivot and hit with my much more powerful forehand, I now hit with backhand. I think this is due to the fact that during this one year I keep forcing myself to do RPB and now my whole game is affected.

Any tips besides practice more on this?

I have a similar problem though my forehand likely wasn't as good as most penholders. My issue was that a coach taught me RPB and it's my better shot so I frequently cheat over to loop or drive with my backhand. However, in the grand scheme of things it's probably not a good thing so what I've been doing is playing match type drills where I just concentrate on stepping around. A training partner told me that stepping around is more of an attitude. He says you have to constantly be looking for it. With my RPB being better than my forehand I just don't look for those opportunities. So I'm more training a mindset to overcome this.

Very interesting, I believe your training partner was spot on about this mindset.
This is the same thing that happened to me when I was playing shakehand (just till a 2 weeks ago, since them I switched to jpen). My BH was also my strong side and I basically had never stepped around/ moved around too much.
Now that I'm playing with jpen, my BH is the weak side and I'm trying to step around more to cover for this weakness. It is still a bit early, but I suspect that my positioning/footwork is become a bit better since I really have to worry about this now. After reading the two posts above, I think my suspicion is confirmed

@Hurricane_boss, I'm afraid I don't have any good advice for you, I also "suffered" from the same problem (but the other way around)

 

[Ranger-man]

Very interesting, I believe your training partner was spot on about this mindset.
This is the same thing that happened to me when I was playing shakehand (just till a 2 weeks ago, since them I switched to jpen). My BH was also my strong side and I basically had never stepped around/ moved around too much.
Now that I'm playing with jpen, my BH is the weak side and I'm trying to step around more to cover for this weakness. It is still a bit early, but I suspect that my positioning/footwork is become a bit better since I really have to worry about this now. After reading the two posts above, I think my suspicion is confirmed

@Hurricane_boss, I'm afraid I don't have any good advice for you, I also "suffered" from the same problem (but the other way around)

It is definitely all about attitude. My backhand is quite strong. In act apart from the fact that traditional penhold backhand has limited reach, I don't feel any pressure if someone tries to pin me on my backhand because I can block more consistently than my forehand and I can even smash high balls or loop balls that are not that high, and it is a wicked loop with side spin on it.
But even then I am always looking to step around and use my forehand. I did that consciously, stepping around even if I can get the point on the backhand, simply because I enjoy it.

 

[shinshiro]

It is definitely all about attitude. My backhand is quite strong. In act apart from the fact that traditional penhold backhand has limited reach, I don't feel any pressure if someone tries to pin me on my backhand because I can block more consistently than my forehand and I can even smash high balls or loop balls that are not that high, and it is a wicked loop with side spin on it.
But even then I am always looking to step around and use my forehand. I did that consciously, stepping around even if I can get the point on the backhand, simply because I enjoy it.

The 2 main BH problems for me are:
1) difficult to close blade angle
I think this is a problem that every traditional penholder has, it is a physical limitation with penhold grip. There are some people that changes (even more) the grip by putting the tumb beside the blade wing to be able to close more the blade angle, but this is very difficult to do in the middle of a rally (unless you predict that your opponent will attack on your BH).
Due to this limitation, I find very problematic to block against heavy topspin balls that makes a big arc/high bounce. It is also difficult to block balls that come to my elbow.

2) limited reach, as you said, specially when comming from SH, since I was able to even cover part of FH with my BH. With jpen it is almost impossible to produce quality balls when doing it.

I hope I can develop a reliable BH as good as yours in the future hehe

 

[Ranger-man]

The 2 main BH problems for me are:
1) difficult to close blade angle
I think this is a problem that every traditional penholder has, it is a physical limitation with penhold grip. There are some people that changes (even more) the grip by putting the tumb beside the blade wing to be able to close more the blade angle, but this is very difficult to do in the middle of a rally (unless you predict that your opponent will attack on your BH).
Due to this limitation, I find very problematic to block against heavy topspin balls that makes a big arc/high bounce. It is also difficult to block balls that come to my elbow.

2) limited reach, as you said, specially when comming from SH, since I was able to even cover part of FH with my BH. With jpen it is almost impossible to produce quality balls when doing it.

I hope I can develop a reliable BH as good as yours in the future hehe

Since you are coming from shakehand, I am guessing your ready stance is more or less in the middle of the table. My ready stance is quite a bit to my backhand side, and I am always ready to move to my forehand. This position means that only an extremely wide angle to my backhand gives me problems.

And for some strange reason my backhand developed before my forehand. Even now I can do more consistent multi-ball with my backhand. And yes, to close the blade angle I do the same thing, opening my thumb a bit to give the blade a more closed face. It becomes second nature after a while. I also train my wrist and elbow to make sure that it is easy for me to twist my arm extensively for traditional penhold BH.

 

[shinshiro]

Since you are coming from shakehand, I am guessing your ready stance is more or less in the middle of the table. My ready stance is quite a bit to my backhand side, and I am always ready to move to my forehand. This position means that only an extremely wide angle to my backhand gives me problems.

And for some strange reason my backhand developed before my forehand. Even now I can do more consistent multi-ball with my backhand. And yes, to close the blade angle I do the same thing, opening my thumb a bit to give the blade a more closed face. It becomes second nature after a while. I also train my wrist and elbow to make sure that it is easy for me to twist my arm extensively for traditional penhold BH.

The highlighted text I think is the key. I have to be always ready to move to my forehand, this is something that indeed is missing in my game. Thank you very much Ranger!

About blade grip on BH, only know I noticed that I wrote wrong, instead of "putting the tumb beside the blade wing", I wanted to write "putting the tumb behind/on backside of the blade wing".
To make it more clear by what I mean, I will put some pictures here.

This first one is the way I hold the racket on BH (which I think is the regular way, RSM also holds this way):


This second pic is what I see some guys doing to be able to close more the blade angle (tumb behind blade wing):



Eduardo Tomoike, a young brazilian player, also does this second grip (but so far, I think he is the only pro that I saw doing this). This second grip that I find too difficult to do in the middle of a rally, the first one is ok for me.

From what I could understand, you hold like the first picture right?

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

This second pic is what I see some guys doing to be able to close more the blade angle (tumb behind blade wing):

View attachment 16399

Eduardo Tomoike, a young brazilian player, also does this second grip (but so far, I think he is the only pro that I saw doing this). This second grip that I find too difficult to do in the middle of a rally, the first one is ok for me.

When I used to play the TPB style, I hold in somewhat traditional curled fingers grip ... I have tried extended fingers grip but couldn't TPB punch/block that well. With curled fingers I'm able to close the racket with the thumb as your posted pic.

I'm not sure though if i understand what you posted .... just to be crystal clear: my TPB grip has curled fingers on back and the index finger and thumb curled around the handle ... they make a "C" and when using TPB punch/block, do I angle/toggle the blade by using the thumb like in your pic, but I use the thumb to push/angle blade down ... from your pic, the thumb looks like what it would look like after I finish my thumb angling the blade, however, your pic shows the blade looking perpendicular to the floor. After the thumb action, my blade is ~45 degrees angle and not like 90 degrees from the looks of you pic.

I apologize if I misread/misunderstood your post.

*feeling nostalgic for TPB*

LOL

edit: problem with static pictures is that it is not dynamic like a video. i can post a video later tonight of the thumb action i do on TPB punch/block - it's almost like or the same as finger snapping .... i generally snap my fingers by using my thumb and middle finger ... but if i did the snap with my index and thumb, it's pretty much the same motion as I use on TPB.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Some tips on learning a new technique

Some general tips I give for anything and ideally they are done together in unison but if you must start off, do it separately with an eye towards doing them together, especially the first 2:

1. Visualization/Modeling

Visualize yourself doing the action you want to do which is new for you. Alternatively visualize someone who does this new action very well ... visualize you are this person and/or visualize overlaying this person on yourself and do the new action. In neuro-linguistic programming, this is called 'modeling'. 'Model' Wang Hao for his RPB, or Xu Xin or Ma Lin or your coach, etc.

2. Slow speed aka tai chi/taiji speed

Visualization was the mental component and now the physical component.

Stand at the table or away from the table, physically do the new action/technique/skill you want to acquire in super-slow motion ... do it taiji speed! Go as slow as you can, understanding each part of the motion, and each subsequent motion. Progressively speed up the technique/skill/action. There should be no feeling of shame or silliness if you spend minutes/hours/days/months of doing this super slow speed. You crawl before you walk, you walk before you run.

Ideally you visualize/model as you do the motion at taiji speed.

3. Break each action into 3 parts.

Learned this from reading up on Bruce Lee. He broke each technique into 3 parts and drilled each part separately and in time as the whole. There are a lot of moving parts to the motion, by "chunking"/grouping some of them down into 3 parts, it was more manageable to learn the new technique/motion.

4. Speak out loud the motions you are doing (or at least say it to yourself if you think you will weird out the people around you if you spoke out loud LOL).

With new techniques/skills/actions, there are generally a lot of "moving parts"/many components. Sometimes speaking out loud helps guide you through it. As you practice enough you may not have to speak it out loud. Start off saying each motion to yourself out loud as you go through it.

5. Video yourself

Video your practice. Watch yourself to see if you spot something that is off. If you can't spot anything, have an experienced player and/or coach take a look. If you choose to, you can also post the video here and request feedback.

6. Watch others

Watch good players at your club and/or watch videos. You can model them too.

7. Play others and actively integrate use of new technique

Play players above your level as well as players on the same level and players a little lower than you. Actively use the new technique as you play.

8. Get professional help.

Take a lesson with a coach.



NOTES:

* Ideally you combine all or some of the tips together to learn effectively.

* In NLP, IIRC, it's found that people absorb/process information primarily in 1 of 3 modes - visual, auditory and kinesthetically. Visual learners are best taught by showing them the technique. Auditory learners are best verbally instructed. And kinesthetic learners should be hands on and guide them physically with the motions. A good instructor then would use all 3 modes to instruct students unless they have figured out which mode is the student's learning primary mode/most receptive mode.

* I have not delved deeply into NLP, and have only a superficial understanding of it, but some of the NLP concepts I like and was successful using, I pass on and credit NLP on them. I've mentioned NLP on a previous post either on this thread or a different thread. I mentioned then and will reiterate here, some consider NLP as 'woo woo' that is, some think of it as quackery or fake. YMMV.

* i have used all of the above in helping me learn RPB. I am not a TT coach nor an instructor.

Truly hope these help!

 

[ttmonster]

Great post and lots to think about OSPH ... aren't you going to post it to Daily thread !

 

[Ranger-man]

Shinshiro, I took a couple of pics of how I grip the blade on my backhand and I realized three things. I am guessing this could be why I feel TBP is good enough for me. I could be wrong.




The first thing as demonstrated with the first pic I post is that even if I don't place my thumb behind the handle or the blade as you can see I extend my thumb/open my palm more than you do in the pic you posted. This means that my blade has a slightly more closed face even with the traditional thumb position. This makes my blocks flatter.

Then I realized that it is almost no adjustment or a very minute adjustment for me to transition to pic two. Felt very easy.




I found this so easy, almost second nature that I will now have to see if I am already doing this or not. It certainly seemed very "usual" when I did it right now. The third pic shows how my little finger is used to give extra stability to the blade. I did not think to do that, just happened when I closed the blade face.




The third pic is exactly the same as the second pic. I just twisted my elbow a bit more to be able to take a pic of the position of my little finger.


And this grip, with the more closed face also felt within my usual range of motion. I find that Eduardo Tomoike's grip is a significant adjustment to the normal grip or range of hand/wrist motion/extension and I can understand that this would be harder to learn or get used to.

I will now see when I have my next hit at the club if I am already doing what I show in pic 2 or not. I think that suffices and I don't need to do what Tomoike is doing. And from watching a few of Tomoike's games, I feel what he really needs is a true explosive penhold forehand now. That is where he needs to focus. He does not really drive the ball so much as brushes it.

 

[Ranger-man]

And OSPH, a lot of what you posted is what I was taught by my coaches in my younger days when I used to do Taekwondo. And also by my trainers in body building. We were taught to perfect our motions first. Doing barbell curls without weights, or bench-press without weights until we had our technique down perfect. The trainers trained me so well (and my other mates who used to train with him) that I can easily do bench-presses or military presses with an open palm (even though one should not do that. I still weight train four times a week.

But this is exactly how he taught us. To isolate our movements because that is how we would, subsequently isolate the muscles we wanted to hit.

We also always trained with a partner who was more than just the spotter. We watched each other's techniques, motivated each other, shut ourselves into a cocoon so that the gym around us disappeared and it helped us focus on ourselves with no distractions.

The key thing though that I was taught by my trainers over the years, which helps me in any discipline, was patience.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

And OSPH, a lot of what you posted is what I was taught by my coaches in my younger days when I used to do Taekwondo. And also by my trainers in body building. We were taught to perfect our motions first. Doing barbell curls without weights, or bench-press without weights until we had our technique down perfect. The trainers trained me so well (and my other mates who used to train with him) that I can easily do bench-presses or military presses with an open palm (even though one should not do that. I still weight train four times a week.

But this is exactly how he taught us. To isolate our movements because that is how we would, subsequently isolate the muscles we wanted to hit.

We also always trained with a partner who was more than just the spotter. We watched each other's techniques, motivated each other, shut ourselves into a cocoon so that the gym around us disappeared and it helped us focus on ourselves with no distractions.

The key thing though that I was taught by my trainers over the years, which helps me in any discipline, was patience.

Very cool Ranger-man!!

I am into the martial arts too, some of the tips I posted was from the MA and some from other sources I've learnt from.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Great post and lots to think about OSPH ... aren't you going to post it to Daily thread !

I keep thinking of extra tips LOL

Will repost to the DTTCC thread soon.

Thank you monster!

 

[suds79]

Hit with a buddy over lunch today.

I can't tell you enough how much fun this inverted FH / LPs on the RPB style is.

While I can twiddle, I'm largely not instead opting for the same feel on my FH & backhand. Plus I like playing with my fingers more extended on the back side for the FH and if I do that, I simply cannot twiddle fast.

Anyways, it's a mixed bag with what style i want to play depending on the opponent. I can largely play a single winged, TPB with inverted style which is what I'm use to. Or if I ever get into a rally where I want to play off the table, or if I'm getting killed by say a serve I for some reason can't figure out, I can play more middle of the table and LP chop like a modern defender with the RPB side.

A funny thing I've noticed is that if I start chopping more on the RPB side on serves, sooner or later I get an easy non-spiny serve over there where they expect I won't be able to do much with it. But then here comes the TPB inverted attack on that serve. It's just nice to give people different looks.

I get that modern defender is largely out on the pro ranks so I get why we never see it there. But I haven't see it on the amateur level much either and I have no idea why. (other than "because shakehand is that much more popular") Anyways, for any penholders out there who prefer the TPB, I highly recommend giving this a go.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Hit with a buddy over lunch today.

I can't tell you enough how much fun this inverted FH / LPs on the RPB style is.

While I can twiddle, I'm largely not instead opting for the same feel on my FH & backhand. Plus I like playing with my fingers more extended on the back side for the FH and if I do that, I simply cannot twiddle fast.

Anyways, it's a mixed bag with what style i want to play depending on the opponent. I can largely play a single winged, TPB with inverted style which is what I'm use to. Or if I ever get into a rally where I want to play off the table, or if I'm getting killed by say a serve I for some reason can't figure out, I can play more middle of the table and LP chop like a modern defender with the RPB side.

A funny thing I've noticed is that if I start chopping more on the RPB side on serves, sooner or later I get an easy non-spiny serve over there where they expect I won't be able to do much with it. But then here comes the TPB inverted attack on that serve. It's just nice to give people different looks.

I get that modern defender is largely out on the pro ranks so I get why we never see it there. But I haven't see it on the amateur level much either and I have no idea why. (other than "because shakehand is that much more popular") Anyways, for any penholders out there who prefer the TPB, I highly recommend giving this a go.

What a cool report to read suds! Sounds like fun, but I am not satisfied at the lack of consistency on my strokes at my level. Will keep practicing for the time being with 2 inverted. I am loving RPB ATM

At some point I will have to relearn/or learn properly the TPB and either pull a Ma Lin or pull a suds and go LP on the back

 

[shinshiro]

When I used to play the TPB style, I hold in somewhat traditional curled fingers grip ... I have tried extended fingers grip but couldn't TPB punch/block that well. With curled fingers I'm able to close the racket with the thumb as your posted pic.

I'm not sure though if i understand what you posted .... just to be crystal clear: my TPB grip has curled fingers on back and the index finger and thumb curled around the handle ... they make a "C" and when using TPB punch/block, do I angle/toggle the blade by using the thumb like in your pic, but I use the thumb to push/angle blade down ... from your pic, the thumb looks like what it would look like after I finish my thumb angling the blade, however, your pic shows the blade looking perpendicular to the floor. After the thumb action, my blade is ~45 degrees angle and not like 90 degrees from the looks of you pic.

I apologize if I misread/misunderstood your post.

*feeling nostalgic for TPB*

LOL

edit: problem with static pictures is that it is not dynamic like a video. i can post a video later tonight of the thumb action i do on TPB punch/block - it's almost like or the same as finger snapping .... i generally snap my fingers by using my thumb and middle finger ... but if i did the snap with my index and thumb, it's pretty much the same motion as I use on TPB.

Actually the picture was just to show my tumb positioning, but the discussion about other fingers position is also interesting.
I use extended fingers because it feels better on FH that way, but I haven't tested too much with curled fingers. I may try that.
On TBP, my blade is a bit angled too, maybe something like 30 degrees. I use the "regular grip - RG" (first picture). With the "advanced grip - AG" (the second picture, the one you quoted) it is easier to close more the racket face and also to be more angled to the floor, like 45 degrees you mentioned or even more. But I can't do this AG fast enough. I have done some shadow strokes simulating fast transitions from FH - BH - FH - BH - FH - BH, but with no success, my grip becomes awkward / racket "moves" too much and my second BH grip is different than the first one and so on, it is not stable for me. To be honest, I don't feel that I will be able to become fast and precise enough with this grip even if I train a lot hahaha.

About the highlighted part, I'm afraid I didn't understand very well the comparison you made. I'm sorry, my english is not very good yet, and also my text is probably a little confusing, that always happen when I try to write long texts.

 

[shinshiro]

Shinshiro, I took a couple of pics of how I grip the blade on my backhand and I realized three things. I am guessing this could be why I feel TBP is good enough for me. I could be wrong.

[pic1]


The first thing as demonstrated with the first pic I post is that even if I don't place my thumb behind the handle or the blade as you can see I extend my thumb/open my palm more than you do in the pic you posted. This means that my blade has a slightly more closed face even with the traditional thumb position. This makes my blocks flatter.

Then I realized that it is almost no adjustment or a very minute adjustment for me to transition to pic two. Felt very easy.

View attachment 16407


I found this so easy, almost second nature that I will now have to see if I am already doing this or not. It certainly seemed very "usual" when I did it right now. The third pic shows how my little finger is used to give extra stability to the blade. I did not think to do that, just happened when I closed the blade face.

[pic3]


The third pic is exactly the same as the second pic. I just twisted my elbow a bit more to be able to take a pic of the position of my little finger.


And this grip, with the more closed face also felt within my usual range of motion. I find that Eduardo Tomoike's grip is a significant adjustment to the normal grip or range of hand/wrist motion/extension and I can understand that this would be harder to learn or get used to.

I will now see when I have my next hit at the club if I am already doing what I show in pic 2 or not. I think that suffices and I don't need to do what Tomoike is doing. And from watching a few of Tomoike's games, I feel what he really needs is a true explosive penhold forehand now. That is where he needs to focus. He does not really drive the ball so much as brushes it.

"I find that Eduardo Tomoike's grip is a significant adjustment to the normal grip or range of hand/wrist motion/extension and I can understand that this would be harder to learn or get used to."

By ''significant adjustment'' do you mean the thumb position? I think Tomoike uses his thumb on the back of the wing instead of on the edge like your picture. Did I understand the same as you did? (Just to know if we are on the same line of thinking)

"I will now see when I have my next hit at the club if I am already doing what I show in pic 2 or not."

That would be great, thanks! I believe some penholders do this but doesn't even realize. There is one guy at my club that said that he uses the regular grip, but when I saw him practicing with other person he was blocking like the pic 2 hahaha.