Lin Gaoyan's Style and the Poly Era

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I know this is a bit of a hefty read, but please bear with me and tell me what you think!

I've been watching LGY highlight reels and I've noticed something about his style. He is not a traditional hungarian style looper, even though he likely plays with traditional chinese rubbers. The other day I observed something which ties in to this. If you are sitting (or have a chance to sit) in a chair that swivel/spins, try this experiment in angular momentum. Spin your chair fast and raise your legs. As you are spinning, stretch your legs long for a round or two, and pull your legs inwards for a round or 2. Notice how your rotational speed is slower when your legs are elongated, and faster when your legs are pulled in. This has to do with inertia - an objects physical property to resist angular change. The longer the rotating body, the greater the inertia, and vice versa. This is just as applicable to hungarian style (arm stretched) loops as well!

If your arms are outstretched when you loop, your body will rotate slower. Hence, loopers like XX and ML play a bit of a distance away from the table to buy themselves the time to recover and repeat. Technically speaking, If XX or ML were to apply the same force to a stroke but contract the arm, they would rotate faster and recover faster for the same effort. And this is what LGY does. His strokes are compact so his speed is faster. His light frame allows him to glide across the floor to get to a balls faster, as such he doesn't even employ the crossstep... He just flies sideways. Both of these allow him to play closer to the table and overwhelm his opponent with speed...these plus a third factor: a less spinny plastic ball. LGY IMHO is turning the sport into a game of speed, using it to overpower the now diminished spin advantages his opponents carry, playing to the strengths of the poly ball. (Where as, XX and ML play to the strength of the celluloid ball, a lighter spinnier ball.)

I also want to add that his compact loop is still fundamentally different from the "euro/japanese style loop". The "euro/jap" loop in my perspective is a more passive stroke that borrows speed/spin from springy rubbers. LGY is by no means a passive attacker. He attacks the ball actively and with dedidcate effort and energy, as such chinese rubbers are still a better suit for his style.

Yet another thing about LGY. He can rely on his nearly inexhaustible energy supply to sustain a rapid barrage of consistent, high quality/power attacks to overwhelm his opponent over time, as opposed to someone like XX, who tries to finish first and finish quick with deadly snipes. For LGY, the reduced spin of the ball plays to his advantage, but for XX it plays against it.

My final observation is that the new ball has about 20% less spin, or about 0.8x the spin of the older ball. I imagine this assumption is based on the ball return, so when the opponent hits the ball in a rally, the spin scales by a factor of x, and when you hit, it scales again by a factor of x, and you notice a 20% spin diminish. This means the spin loss factor is (x * x) = 80%, x^2 = 0.8, x = 0.9. With every hit, the spin on the ball drops down to 90% due to the poly ball alone, a 10% additional decay in spin witch each and every hit! This leads me to believe that LGY's style is better suited for the poly ball than the celluloid ball.
 
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If your arms are outstretched when you loop, your body will rotate slower. Hence, loopers like XX and ML play a bit of a distance away from the table to buy themselves the time to recover and repeat. Technically speaking, If XX or ML were to apply the same force to a stroke but contract the arm, they would rotate faster and recover faster for the same effort.

I think this is a really interesting observation. This could be an argument in favor of European style "chicken wing" looping, when there is some nice wrist to it. I don't agree that European looping is so passive as argued here, and I have to think a lot more about the spin stuff.

Here is a perfect German loop, Suga posted it earlier. It is a thing of beauty.

 
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I've never heard about hungarian style loop :D but I get it why do you call it 'hungarian'. Klampár Tibor, Jónyer István and Gergely Gábor were TT legends and they all had a strange FH (I am sure that back then many player used a similar style)
Actually Jónyer had a very powerful FH loop, take a look at one of his matches.

Later Werner Schlager's FH loop was pretty similar.
 
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I don't think spin decay works the way you describe - if that were the case, you'd reach a point when there was virtually no spin on the ball assuming an infinite topspin-topspin rally. But that's not true, because each player is imparting acceleration on the ball with each hit. I think the simpler explanation holds true here: angular momentum is a product of mass and radius, both of which are increased slightly with the poly ball. Hence, you get less rotation.
 
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When companies and ITTF described the spin loss in ball changes they dont mean in a rally, unless they have the equipment and managed to measure the spin loss in an actual game, but Im sure we would know about that

When X company says 20 % spin loss they obviously mean ma long for example looping with the same effort two different balls one celluloid and one plastic. This is how they measure it, with players/testers
 
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What's Lin Gaoyan's age? Isn't he significantly younger than those two?

Comparing him to Ma Long or Xu Xin (who is on the tail end of his career) I think is a little unfair given the age gap. Perhaps his technique does allow him to be quicker but I think we should also compare it could be the age gap which is an important factor at that playing level. Just my 2 cents.
 
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I know this is a bit of a hefty read, but please bear with me and tell me what you think!

I've been watching LGY highlight reels and I've noticed something about his style. He is not a traditional hungarian style looper, even though he likely plays with traditional chinese rubbers. The other day I observed something which ties in to this. If you are sitting (or have a chance to sit) in a chair that swivel/spins, try this experiment in angular momentum. Spin your chair fast and raise your legs. As you are spinning, stretch your legs long for a round or two, and pull your legs inwards for a round or 2. Notice how your rotational speed is slower when your legs are elongated, and faster when your legs are pulled in. This has to do with inertia - an objects physical property to resist angular change. The longer the rotating body, the greater the inertia, and vice versa. This is just as applicable to hungarian style (arm stretched) loops as well!

If your arms are outstretched when you loop, your body will rotate slower. Hence, loopers like XX and ML play a bit of a distance away from the table to buy themselves the time to recover and repeat. Technically speaking, If XX or ML were to apply the same force to a stroke but contract the arm, they would rotate faster and recover faster for the same effort. And this is what LGY does. His strokes are compact so his speed is faster. His light frame allows him to glide across the floor to get to a balls faster, as such he doesn't even employ the crossstep... He just flies sideways. Both of these allow him to play closer to the table and overwhelm his opponent with speed...these plus a third factor: a less spinny plastic ball. LGY IMHO is turning the sport into a game of speed, using it to overpower the now diminished spin advantages his opponents carry, playing to the strengths of the poly ball. (Where as, XX and ML play to the strength of the celluloid ball, a lighter spinnier ball.)

I also want to add that his compact loop is still fundamentally different from the "euro/japanese style loop". The "euro/jap" loop in my perspective is a more passive stroke that borrows speed/spin from springy rubbers. LGY is by no means a passive attacker. He attacks the ball actively and with dedidcate effort and energy, as such chinese rubbers are still a better suit for his style.

Yet another thing about LGY. He can rely on his nearly inexhaustible energy supply to sustain a rapid barrage of consistent, high quality/power attacks to overwhelm his opponent over time, as opposed to someone like XX, who tries to finish first and finish quick with deadly snipes. For LGY, the reduced spin of the ball plays to his advantage, but for XX it plays against it.

My final observation is that the new ball has about 20% less spin, or about 0.8x the spin of the older ball. I imagine this assumption is based on the ball return, so when the opponent hits the ball in a rally, the spin scales by a factor of x, and when you hit, it scales again by a factor of x, and you notice a 20% spin diminish. This means the spin loss factor is (x * x) = 80%, x^2 = 0.8, x = 0.9. With every hit, the spin on the ball drops down to 90% due to the poly ball alone, a 10% additional decay in spin witch each and every hit! This leads me to believe that LGY's style is better suited for the poly ball than the celluloid ball.

Outstretched hands does not necessarily mean slower body rotation. And his weight also does not mean he is faster than others

If you are 100 kilos and you produce 200 joule per second power in your legs then you are faster
than a guy who is 50 kilos and 75 joules per second power, all other factors remaining the same. FZD is definitely heavier than LGY but look at his buffalo legs, he can easily be faster/more explosive than LGY

Also, ZJK FZD LJK play with sidesteps only footwork which is extremely difficult but definitely more efficient than the footwork of ml or xx who try to pivot or crosstep much more

More and more chinese are adopting that ZJK type of footwork, so I dont think this gives LGY an edge. He has power in both wings, he can redirect the ball , he is a good server and he has a complete package in general
 
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Outstretched hands does not necessarily mean slower body rotation. And his weight also does not mean he is faster than others

If you are 100 kilos and you produce 200 joule per second power in your legs then you are faster
than a guy who is 50 kilos and 75 joules per second power, all other factors remaining the same. FZD is definitely heavier than LGY but look at his buffalo legs, he can easily be faster/more explosive than LGY

Also, ZJK FZD LJK play with sidesteps only footwork which is extremely difficult but definitely more efficient than the footwork of ml or xx who try to pivot or crosstep much more

More and more chinese are adopting that ZJK type of footwork, so I dont think this gives LGY an edge. He has power in both wings, he can redirect the ball , he is a good server and he has a complete package in general

I speak relatively, of course. XX will rotate slower with arms extended than XX arms contracted, when XX generates the exact power. (When my chair was already spinning, extending/contracting my legs would make the spinning chair slow down/speed up.) This does not imply players XX or FZD are automatically slower than LGY, im sorry if that is how it came across.

What I do find unique to LGY is his synchronized sidestep/compacted forearm loop that to me breaks from the Chinese norm of sidestep/extended forearm. Even ZJK and FZD performed the sidestep/extended forearm loop. My point is merely that this could be an evolutionary response to the poly ball, as a technique like this would be riskier with the celluloid, which FZD and ZJK trained for?
 
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I don't think spin decay works the way you describe - if that were the case, you'd reach a point when there was virtually no spin on the ball assuming an infinite topspin-topspin rally. But that's not true, because each player is imparting acceleration on the ball with each hit. I think the simpler explanation holds true here: angular momentum is a product of mass and radius, both of which are increased slightly with the poly ball. Hence, you get less rotation.

So the spin decay argument was more of an intuit e comment, as I have not worked through the details yet but I wanted to share with others and encourage them to do so as well. Challenging this notion will only help clarify the idea.

Thinking as I type, assume a match between chopper And a looper. Imagine if they exerted the exact same energy in a loop/chop rally for a celluloid ball as well as poly ball. In a hypothetical scenario, let's assume the initial angular velocity is maintained 100 percent with the celluloid ball for a total of 4 hits. 100%, 100%, 100% and 100%. Now extend the same power for the same rally but replace the celluloid ball with a poly ball. Let's assume there is a 10% loss in spin due to poly. Now we have 90%, 90% of 90%, 90% of 90% of 90%, and finally 90% of 90% of 90% of 90%.

My point is that the lost, whether significant or trivial is compounded with every hit. And one can't assume that the entire 4 hit rally left the ball with 90% spin because of the polyball, rather 67%. Now this may not necessarily be true, but I don't think "a net loss of spin in a rally of 10%" is right either.

EDIT: I should rephrase. For a player to perform with the same level of spin with a poly ball as he would with a celluloid ball, his net effort is not going to be 10% more to maintain similarity, rather his efforts will be compounded with more rallies that he engages in.

This could also be why XX is now struggling to close the longer the rallies get.
 
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I also wonder why LGY's loop is shorter. But if you look at other CNT players, you may find a whole spectrum of lengths of the forehand strokes. For example, the magnificent penholders of the past Wang Hao and Ma Lin had really YUGE strokes, even larger than Ma Long's or Xu Xin's. While someone like Yan An loops even backspin with a bent arm:


ZJK's rallying forehand (not the open up) is quite short too. I wonder if this difference in technique was a conscious choice. Or maybe the guys with shorter forehands picked up the stroke very early in their youths and it was too late too change (it is super hard to do so).
 
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Great stuff

We used to start out kids by making them hold a towell in their armpit then give them multi-ball. I'm not sure if coaches still do that but this lad looks as if he passed through that school.
One consequence of this stroke was that players tended to develop a more spinny game (in the drive) by using their body more as in the video.
But I did notice that they did have some problems transitioning to a backhand stroke during a rally. You can see it in the video where the 2 strokes are hugely different and the transition is a little jerky thus time consuming. I always admired how easily and smoothly Kreanga pulled this off. I've not seen better.
What's the latest thinking on this switching between FH to BH during a rally?


If your arms are outstretched when you loop, your body will rotate slower. Hence, loopers like XX and ML play a bit of a distance away from the table to buy themselves the time to recover and repeat. Technically speaking, If XX or ML were to apply the same force to a stroke but contract the arm, they would rotate faster and recover faster for the same effort.

I think this is a really interesting observation. This could be an argument in favor of European style "chicken wing" looping, when there is some nice wrist to it. I don't agree that European looping is so passive as argued here, and I have to think a lot more about the spin stuff.

Here is a perfect German loop, Suga posted it earlier. It is a thing of beauty.

 
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LGY's technique isn't a response to the poly ball. He was finalist in 2011 WJTTC and he lost to Koki Niwa. He used the exact same loop technique.
Yan An's arm is much more bent and his loops are much shorter.
ZJK can loop with the nearly the same acceleration with bent and streched arms, however he uses his forearm more than ML. I think nowaday LJK has the most similar FH to ZJK.
 
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LGY's technique isn't a response to the poly ball. He was finalist in 2011 WJTTC and he lost to Koki Niwa. He used the exact same loop technique.
Yan An's arm is much more bent and his loops are much shorter.
ZJK can loop with the nearly the same acceleration with bent and streched arms, however he uses his forearm more than ML. I think nowaday LJK has the most similar FH to ZJK.

A lot of this is fitting a square peg into a round hole. It's been known for a long time that bent elbow loops aid recovery at the cost of power. Ma Long, Zhang Jike, Wang Hao, Fan Zhendong (I am not listing Xu Xin for a reason, though I could) have a variety of forehand strokes that they adapt to a variety of situations. There is hardly a one size fits all swing with these players.
 
Outstretched hands does not necessarily mean slower body rotation. And his weight also does not mean he is faster than others

If you are 100 kilos and you produce 200 joule per second power in your legs then you are faster
than a guy who is 50 kilos and 75 joules per second power, all other factors remaining the same. FZD is definitely heavier than LGY but look at his buffalo legs, he can easily be faster/more explosive than LGY

Also, ZJK FZD LJK play with sidesteps only footwork which is extremely difficult but definitely more efficient than the footwork of ml or xx who try to pivot or crosstep much more

More and more chinese are adopting that ZJK type of footwork, so I dont think this gives LGY an edge. He has power in both wings, he can redirect the ball , he is a good server and he has a complete package in general

buffalo legs lol
 
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Isn't technique also somewhat dependent on body proportions, how the joints work in detail etc?

Humans don't differ physiologically that much to warrant huge differences, but doesn't it play into the equation a bit?

Sure some, but I suspect early coaching also matters a lot more for something like this.
 
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We used to start out kids by making them hold a towell in their armpit then give them multi-ball.

Check out 1:50-1:53 of this video to see Ariel Hsing's "forehand fixing machine"

 
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Sure some, but I suspect early coaching also matters a lot more for something like this.
That's kind of what I mean. Some player can be more deemed for one technique than the other and taught that way, because of their physical abilities and traits.

Or does the CNT work more on an "engineering" basis where they just have goals that they try to fulfill with their players ie: developing a certain kind of style for the next generation?
 
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I speak relatively, of course. XX will rotate slower with arms extended than XX arms contracted, when XX generates the exact power. (When my chair was already spinning, extending/contracting my legs would make the spinning chair slow down/speed up.) This does not imply players XX or FZD are automatically slower than LGY, im sorry if that is how it came across.

What I do find unique to LGY is his synchronized sidestep/compacted forearm loop that to me breaks from the Chinese norm of sidestep/extended forearm. Even ZJK and FZD performed the sidestep/extended forearm loop. My point is merely that this could be an evolutionary response to the poly ball, as a technique like this would be riskier with the celluloid, which FZD and ZJK trained for?

My point of view is that the new 40mm ball demanded sidesteps because you have to be closer to the table. ZJK was the 1st one to do so and maybe wang hao earlier, and now we have FZD LJK LGY LDS. All of them looping early the ball in both wings so for me its something that has been evolving since the 40mm was introduced but now it is the best way of playing the game, but also the more demanding one

Anyway there is also yan an who has european type loop but in the end it all boils down to effectiveness. I agree about ZJK FZD (for me they also have technique more similar to euro jap loop but the big difference is their footwork allows them to do so and take the ball early, europeans react slower) stretching their arm but they only do it when they have time to react, even ML or XX dont stretch the arm when the rally is close to the table with off the bounce exchanges
 
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My point of view is that the new 40mm ball demanded sidesteps because you have to be closer to the table. ZJK was the 1st one to do so and maybe wang hao earlier, and now we have FZD LJK LGY LDS. All of them looping early the ball in both wings so for me its something that has been evolving since the 40mm was introduced but now it is the best way of playing the game, but also the more demanding one

Anyway there is also yan an who has european type loop but in the end it all boils down to effectiveness. I agree about ZJK FZD (for me they also have technique more similar to euro jap loop but the big difference is their footwork allows them to do so and take the ball early, europeans react slower) stretching their arm but they only do it when they have time to react, even ML or XX dont stretch the arm when the rally is close to the table with off the bounce exchanges

Which "Eurojap" looper loops like this? One is sufficient.


Like I said, the one thing that characterizes all the top CNT players, less so Xu Xin, is diversity of looping techniques. If anyone calls ZJK a bit more of an Euro looper, which Eurolooper loops like this?


In the end, the top Chinese all have a diversity of swings - I think Ma Long is the worst (lots of different swings), and Xu Xin is the most conservative (almost always straight arm), but everyone adapts to the ball.
 
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