Nasty rubber setup, another great ERT video

[TensorBackhand]

ITTF also ban boosting. Boosting also creates an uneven playing field don't you think? So players with boosted rubbers only plays amongst themselves?

Exactly, that's why there are organizations trying to get boosting banned. Boosting should either be allowed (which in practice is the current state), or should be outright banned and enforced.

 

[TensorBackhand]

It is hard to take seriously some of the stuff that is presented in this thread:

(the following is a paraphrasing, I am not going to waste time looking for the actual statement):

"I don't have anyone who uses pips to train against, therefore nobody should be allowed to use pips."

"Lefties should be banned because I don't have lefties to train against and I (incorrectly) think lefties are banned in fencing."

Nobody is forcing you to play against pips players. You can stay in your circle and play vs the guys you play against all you want. But that does not mean that other people should not have to play against any materials that are available. And you even can ignore the fact that, if you lose to a pips out player, the pips out player is doing something you can't handle and therefore the pips out player is actually doing something better than you.

Frictionless pips and aspect ratios: it is interesting that none of the top pros of the time wanted those rubbers banned and thought the use of those rubbers was totally fine. Those rubbers were banned because ITTF was scared it would deter young players from continuing in the sport. It is kind of a stupid reason to ban them.

Two color rule: I feel like this rule made sense and was fine. Who is saying we should go back to the days where pips and anti players could use the same color rubber on both sides? I do think high level players would still be able to read the spin if the player had both sides the same anyway.

====

As I see it Michael, you have plenty of choices on this subject:

1) You could just continue to only play vs two winged offensive players who use pips-in-rubber (smooth offensive rubbers) on both sides.
2) You could find a few decent pips players to train with and train with them to improve your ability to play vs these kinds of rubbers.
3) You could make a pips racket, get another player and alternate who is using the pips and who is using their regular setup: learning to use pips will help you learn to train against them.

But without actually knowing how to play with them or against them, the idea that you have decided that nobody should have to play with or against them seems a little odd to me.

Also, "practice until you get good vs LP" fails logically as an argument to me. Qian Tianyi is world #6. She is better than anybody on this forum. But even her with all her training and training partners and coaches, she struggles badly against the technology. And if you watch the game, she made so many errors. It's clear she was fighting the technology, not the player.

 

[TensorBackhand]

That is fine - he is clearly a quack to anyone with insight - your opinion is more informed than his. So "Even ERT says" should only be used when you mean "even a guy who fakely claims to be a TT expert says"...

Somebody must know ERT in their club. How is he actually as a coach and player? Is he like a 2500 genuine coach?

Or is he some 1500 nutcase going on youtube?

I really don't know, but generally I find him to be quite knowledgeable about most things.

Can you identify some of the insights that he got wrong?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I think it is also worth asking how and why ERT can post video footage of matches that he clearly does not own and claim it as his own content.

 

[hclnnkhg]

Also, "practice until you get good vs LP" fails logically as an argument to me. Qian Tianyi is world #6. She is better than anybody on this forum. But even her with all her training and training partners and coaches, she struggles badly against the technology. And if you watch the game, she made so many errors. It's clear she was fighting the technology, not the player.

If the technology is so good, that it overshadows the player's skill and creates an uneven playing field, that would be modern inverted rubbers, not LP. Otherwise the World Champions and World No. 1s would mostly be LP players. Can you name the last World No. 1 that doesn't use double inverted? Mima Ito's was as high as No. 2 (and she doesn't use LP either).

 

[TensorBackhand]

I think it is also worth asking how and why ERT can post video footage of matches that he clearly does not own and claim it as his own content.

Well if he is commentating on the video, is that considered fair use? i dont know the rules, but obviously youtube hasn't banned him yet.

Anyways, the bigger question for me is how real is he as a coach and TT expert?

 

[TensorBackhand]

If the technology is so good, that it overshadows the player's skill and creates an uneven playing field, that would be modern inverted rubbers, not LP. Otherwise the World Champions and World No. 1s would mostly be LP players. Can you name the last World No. 1 that doesn't use double inverted? Mima Ito's was as high as No. 2 (and she doesn't use LP either).

I'm not saying LP can be #1. Obviously inverted has much more potential offensively, and with enough training it produces the best results.

What i'm saying is that in many situations, LP can be abusive as a technology. It can produces assymetric results, meaning a player can win a lot of points without the proportional skill.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Well if he is commentating on the video, is that considered fair use? i dont know the rules, but obviously youtube hasn't banned him yet.

Anyways, the bigger question for me is how real is he as a coach and TT expert?

Don't you need consent to use someone else's video at all? But, that is a whole match. He took the whole match and the commentators sound. What is he actually adding?

 

[hclnnkhg]

I'm not saying LP can be #1. Obviously inverted has much more potential offensively, and with enough training it produces the best results.

What i'm saying is that in many situations, LP can be abusive as a technology. It can produces assymetric results, meaning a player can win a lot of points without the proportional skill.

How do you precisely measure and compare skill about using inverted rubbers, short pimpled rubbers and long pimpled rubbers, to see if the point-winning probability is proportional to the "skill"?
If I can serve super spinny with my tacky rubbers, is that an abusive technology? If I can loop a ball way under the table aggressively with Tenergies, is that an abusive technology? If I can blast a winner meters away from the table with Super ZLC blades, is than an abusive technology?

 

[Der_Echte]

Young kid and/or 2x Inverted player who avoids LP players: (Crying and Sobbing) Whaeh-whaeh... I just lost to an LP player who is unathletic and uses slippery pips, and just sticks his LP pips on BH out there worse than a chicken wing and I cannot figure out how to attack his return and I make error after error !!!! I just crapped in my drawers and I need you to clean it up for me - I am incapable !!! Whaeh Whaeh !!!

LP players: Friggin' learn how to play table tennis and wipe ur own azz !!!

ITTF prez at the time: We hear you, although NONE of the professional players have problems with LP at the top level and drool at the prospect of an easy match victory vs a frictionless Pips player, we will make equipment rules that literally every nation copy/pastes into their own natl assn laws so you do not have to face a slippery LP player in your club or sanctioned tourneys !!!

LP players: Dammit, gotta buy and try 100 rubbers and figure out how to play table tennis again... OK, after all these years of trying, I figured out how to play 1500-2200 USATT level again with friction pips. Bring it on U 2x inverted attackers, try and take this battery off my shoulder !!!

Young kid and/or 2x Inverted player who avoids LP players: (Crying and Sobbing) Whaeh-whaeh... I just lost to an LP player who is unathletic and uses ITTF legal friction LP pips... Dammit, he gets the ball back and it is weird and slow and I cannot figure out the timing and spin !!! So I blindly attack the return out of position, out of timing with no leverage and I miss and miss !!!! Whaeh-Whaeh !!! Someone at USATT MUST DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS !!!

NO FAIR ARRRHHH !!!!

OK, now I am off to my room to Boost all my H3s and pro Tenergies and make a gazillion threads all about it and talk about all rubbers and ways to boost 'em... more rubbers to boost than there are Pokemon to catch.

*************
We can talk all day about this until the cows come home, but it is pretty much like I wrote above.

Figure out how to play TT already.

YOU are responsible and accountable for your play and results -NOT SOME GOVERNMENT> Table Tennis is NOT Socialism or Communism or CRT or Equity of outcome without the work. The Govt is not ur daddy. The govt has no place or duty for coddling you.

 

[Attitude]

Somebody must know ERT in their club. How is he actually as a coach and player? Is he like a 2500 genuine coach?

Or is he some 1500 nutcase going on youtube?

I really don't know, but generally I find him to be quite knowledgeable about most things.

Can you identify some of the insights that he got wrong?

Many of his statements around the equipment of the pros is simply wrong and never corrected. I mean not even outdated but just wrong from the get go.
He even stole dumb information from tabletennis-reference.

You can crosscheck several players that 247tabletennis has on his website. At least he knows his stuff.

 

[NextLevel]

Somebody must know ERT in their club. How is he actually as a coach and player? Is he like a 2500 genuine coach?

Or is he some 1500 nutcase going on youtube?

I really don't know, but generally I find him to be quite knowledgeable about most things.

Can you identify some of the insights that he got wrong?

He just lacks the kind of insightfulness you would get from a really good player or high level coach if you have ever spoken to one. He mostly parrots banal things, sometimes out of context. He is usually translating or passing through stuff without any real insight into it. No serious coach would tell you that one should use a rubber 3 degrees softer on the backhand vs the forehand without knowing precisely what your approaches to those strokes are and seeing the confidence you have in your technique, for example. Whenever he narrates over videos, there is very little context. Originally, he had this silly stuff about Chinese secrets and European vs Chinese technique which often compared the technique of European amateurs to Chinese professionals in videos to make his point. Nowadays, he just provides his stuff to people who are so hungry for TT wisdom that they follow someone who they have never seen play.

Calling Idesawa a nobody (or some equivalent like "non-world class player") is a simple example, how does a non-world class player get on the Japanese junior national team or play in the T-League? Any serious person in this sport knows that you don't play at the level of Idesawa without leaving a trail behind you in practice hours and serious competition. Or do you consider the members of the other national teams in the top 100 that Idesawa beat on the way to the finals nobodies as well? He Zhuoja a non-world class player too?

 

[NextLevel]

How do you precisely measure and compare skill about using inverted rubbers, short pimpled rubbers and long pimpled rubbers, to see if the point-winning probability is proportional to the "skill"?
If I can serve super spinny with my tacky rubbers, is that an abusive technology? If I can loop a ball way under the table aggressively with Tenergies, is that an abusive technology? If I can blast a winner meters away from the table with Super ZLC blades, is than an abusive technology?

I will be honest, playing with my paddle against my co-workers at the company tournament, I did ask myself this question...

 

[TensorBackhand]

Many of his statements around the equipment of the pros is simply wrong and never corrected. I mean not even outdated but just wrong from the get go.
He even stole dumb information from tabletennis-reference.

You can crosscheck several players that 247tabletennis has on his website. At least he knows his stuff.

I never heard of this website, but it seems reliable. It says Harimoto uses 1.9mm BH rubber, that is surprising to me.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Also the website says Chen Meng and Sun Yinsha both use Hurricane 8 on bh. How come there is no H8 national?

 

[hclnnkhg]

Also the website says Chen Meng and Sun Yinsha both use Hurricane 8 on bh. How come there is no H8 national?

红双喜明星国套狂飙3乒乓球胶皮球拍反胶国手套胶国狂3马龙孙颖莎

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www.umegou.com

Not the clearest picture but it does seem to exist.

 

[NextLevel]

Also, "practice until you get good vs LP" fails logically as an argument to me. Qian Tianyi is world #6. She is better than anybody on this forum. But even her with all her training and training partners and coaches, she struggles badly against the technology. And if you watch the game, she made so many errors. It's clear she was fighting the technology, not the player.

Again, you mean that Qian Tianyi has never lost to choppers before, and because of that we should ban chopping with pips? And should we ban chopping with pips as well if a player struggles badly against it? I promise you, you have no chance against a chopper without training against chop. So we should ban that too?

Qian Tianyi struggled with a player who was able to play as fast and sometimes faster than she could. Again, if you gave her a player who wasn't world class playing the same style, she would win easily. Because even if you play with weird material, you still need to be able to control world class serves and block world class loops and push world class backspin. Everyone struggles with what they haven't practiced against. If you want to ban choppers, let us know so we can see how you really think.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Again, you mean that Qian Tianyi has never lost to choppers before, and because of that we should ban chopping with pips? And should we ban chopping with pips as well if a player struggles badly against it? I promise you, you have no chance against a chopper without training against chop. So we should ban that too?

Qian Tianyi struggled with a player who was able to play as fast and sometimes faster than she could. Again, if you gave her a player who wasn't world class playing the same style, she would win easily. Because even if you play with weird material, you still need to be able to control world class serves and block world class loops and push world class backspin. Everyone struggles with what they haven't practiced against. If you want to ban choppers, let us know so we can see how you really think.

My guess is that you will see Idesawa with a few occasional successes against top players, but then her competitiveness will fall off a cliff as the months and years go by. Once coaches get their players prepared for her unusual setup, her real ability or lack of ability will show. She's getting a 20% boost in effectiveness because of her nasty setup, but once they figure it out, she will just be an average pro player, not elite pro player.

 

[NextLevel]

My guess is that you will see Idesawa with a few occasional successes against top players, but then her competitiveness will fall off a cliff as the months and years go by. Once coaches get their players prepared for her unusual setup, her real ability or lack of ability will show. She's getting a 20% boost in effectiveness because of her nasty setup, but once they figure it out, she will just be an average pro player, not elite pro player.

What do you consider an average pro player? Just to be clear here.

 

[TensorBackhand]

What do you consider an average pro player? Just to be clear here.

Maybe top 100 or 200, but outside of the Top 15. If she remains in the top 15 over a reasonably long period, I would be very surprised and I would consider my assessment of her wrong.

If she remains in the top 30, she would've surpassed my expectations, but still doesn't change my basic opinion that she is a bit of a equipment fluke to trouble the top 6 elite players.