Pips in V/S pips out

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It might also be hard for a pips player to understand what he does with his pips when he hasn't learnt the basics with 2x smooth rubber. When learning with smooth rubber you get to understand what spin your opponent gives you and only then you can start to use pips effectively I think.
Besides that it is good that the names of Gionis the Greek (I won't get his surname right) and Tang Peng have been on this site lately, I don't understand how we forgot to mention them in this discussion haha.

I agree with that. It is worth being able to read spin and learn how to counter it or respond to it before using rubber that makes it so that the spin does not effect you to the same extent.
 
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All I have to say is please go back and read the thread. A lot of you have misread or misstated some things here. I never said anything about not enjoying playing pips players. Some of my best experiences and friends are all pips players. I personally have never had a problem with pips. I just have had many club members who were just starting in their first year quit because they felt that pips were unfair and they would rather not play against someone who is less athletic than they are but still wins a game.

As to my rating, look up Drew Heo. He's my brother who has played at one tournament. I've played in a several both in usatt or just collegiate. He's rated 1300 or so. I'm rated 1066. Now I beat my brother every time. He's never beaten me, but I've coached him. So what you're saying is that because of his rating he's a higher level player than me. That's interesting. Because in the grand spectrum of things none of us is even over 1000 in the ITTF standards. Rating only shows skill level when tournaments are played consistently and there is enough diversity in the pool of players. For instance there are players in Seattle that think that reaching 2000 is for the best players in the country because frankly they've never been able to play anyone outside of Seattle or Portland and because of this their ratings are a lot lower because they only play 2500+ rated players at the clubs. And I know for a fact that many 1800 rated players in Portland can beat 2200 rated players from PA because we've taken trips up there and they've gotten their butts handed to them.

If you believe that the rating systems of the U.S. stands some kind of skill level I'd love for you to come to any of our lancaster clubs. We have several 1000 rated players who haven't played since the 90's that would frankly destroy you. Rating doesn't really mean anything in regards to skill, it's simply the organized system we have currently to provide income to those who would like to contribute to the sport of Table Tennis.

Here's a link to the Lancaster TTC youtube channel guys. You can see that about 80-90 percent of all matches are between pips vs anti, pips vs pips, or on rare occasion inverted vs pips. There to my knowledge are less than a couple of videos where it's actually inverted vs inverted. And this is just one of the 5 clubs that I go to where we have players that all play with pips.

http://www.youtube.com/user/lancasterttc

Please just read over the thread before speculating. It's rather funny how many of you just start posting random things about me when we've not even been discussing me. I'd rather you spend your efforts on growing the sport than thinking up some odd answer to some questions that aren't even involved with this discussion. Seriously just go and read the thread, the discussion was over ages ago.
 
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All I have to say is please go back and read the thread. A lot of you have misread or misstated some things here. I never said anything about not enjoying playing pips players. Some of my best experiences and friends are all pips players. I personally have never had a problem with pips. I just have had many club members who were just starting in their first year quit because they felt that pips were unfair and they would rather not play against someone who is less athletic than they are but still wins a game.

It is in any case unreasonable to quit within a year because you lose to players who are less athletic. Regardless if they use pips or not.
And I agree with you that there is no reason to change the topic of the discussion to wether you are ranked correctly or not. :)
 
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Hey I have no arguments there Wiwa, but let's be honest here, the majority of college players have egos and it's going to affect their judgment. I wish they'd stuck it out because they have great potential, but in a culture that doesn't respect the sport as the rest of the world it's no wonder it happened. Personally I think that in order to grow the sport in my area it's best to not have them play pips for a while until they understand the concepts of spin, technique, and tactics. I only break out the pips when I need to show them what the LP do and to help them work on returning varying spin while looping.
 
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Hey I have no arguments there Wiwa, but let's be honest here, the majority of college players have egos and it's going to affect their judgment. I wish they'd stuck it out because they have great potential, but in a culture that doesn't respect the sport as the rest of the world it's no wonder it happened. Personally I think that in order to grow the sport in my area it's best to not have them play pips for a while until they understand the concepts of spin, technique, and tactics. I only break out the pips when I need to show them what the LP do and to help them work on returning varying spin while looping.

Yeah pips should only be used by people with basic understanding of table tennis as a whole and spin in particular. As for growing the sport I think you need hero's. People relate to them, more people join the sport, more heroes will come. It will help to make people consider table tennis as a serious sport, and then when they start they'll find out it is the most awesome thing in the world.
 
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Here's a link to the Lancaster TTC youtube channel guys. You can see that about 80-90 percent of all matches are between pips vs anti, pips vs pips, or on rare occasion inverted vs pips. There to my knowledge are less than a couple of videos where it's actually inverted vs inverted. And this is just one of the 5 clubs that I go to where we have players that all play with pips.

http://www.youtube.com/user/lancasterttc

I looked through the videos on the John Wetzler, playlist. He is using pips and he looks like a pretty decent player actually. But in his whole playlist, it looked like only 2 of the players he faced were using pips. The others were all smooth with an attacking style.

I was also looking for a playlist for you Mr RicharD. Is there one?

And I agree with you that there is no reason to change the topic of the discussion to wether you are ranked correctly or not. :)

When someone presents information to indicate that their level is high and that they beat players who are 1800-2200 level, but then their results in a tournament show that the highest level player they were able to beat in that particular tournament was 1100, and the results show that the player lost to low level players, it casts doubt on all the rest of what he is saying. Especially when, much of what he is saying sounds to be inaccurate. For example, when he said that it takes NO technique to play with pips and NO skill. Or when he said that pips did nothing except produce dead balls, both of those things made me question why the information I was being given was so off. Previously I had heard many posts from Mr RicharD that I thought were useful productive information and I had no reason to doubt his understanding of the sport. But hearing much of what he had to say about pips and how different it was from my experience, I started wondering. And then the question of why someone would want to present themselves as an authority and present themselves as a very high level player and a coach made me wonder. And when he said he played well against pips and then I saw the results of that recent tournament it made me question things more. Why would someone as good as Mr RicharD is presenting himself to be, lose in a tournament to a 1300 level player not just once but two times. Why would he lose to everyone he played except an 1100 level player. Of course he could have had a bad tournament and I have no idea what Mr RicharD plays like. But it makes it sound like what he is presenting is more of the complaining about pips players that caused him to join this thread.

And if you look at where the thread started, it was a comment by Shree on why Shree felt that it was beneficial to players of a certain level to switch to pips out rubbers for their backhand and Mr RicharD seems to be the one who changed the subject to his own which was creating a league of players with only smooth rubbers because he knows too many people who complain about pips and don't like them.

Here is a quote from that post where Mr RicharD changed the subject to his subject:

You aren't skilled at TT if you're using pips because they do most of the work.

I am not so sure information like that is all that productive.

Now again, I have never seen Mr RicharD play but if he is talking about how good he is and how many players he has beat with high ratings like 2200, and then I see tournament results where he loses against 1300, 1500, 1700 and 1800 level players and the only player he wins a match against is 1100 level, it makes me wonder, it makes me question what he is saying especially since so much of what he says about pips sounds so off. So the subject was not switched. Mr RicharD brought up how many high level players he has beaten. I just was surprised when I saw, in his most recent competition that he lost to so many low level players and am wondering why. And now I just looked and saw that in a previous competition he lost to: two players in the 1000 range, two more in the 1100 range, and two more in the 1200 range. Again, I would only think this is a problem from someone presenting themselves as an authority and claiming to be at a high level of play.

I don't think it matters what level he is. I think there are times when someone who does not have a high level for one reason or another can know a lot about the sport. But on the subject of pips, it seems like his opinions do not fit.

Wiwa's presentation of why players should not use pips until they reach a certain level makes sense to me. I just don't think you can or should make something like that mandatory. It sounds a little too dictatorial. But there are reasons to develop your skills with smooth before you specialize. So, as a general statement, I agree with that.

It also looks like, if you look at that video, Mr RicharD is talking about players who use pips and are at a fairly high level. That guy John Wetzler is over 2100. In other matches from other playlists I scanned through it often looks like the playlist is a of a player who is pips and quite often the opponent is smooth. Many of the players who look like they are not in as good shape are playing pips. Perhaps I need to scan through more. But I saw enough smooth players to think that it must be more than 10-20% smooth.
 
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Yeah pips should only be used by people with basic understanding of table tennis as a whole and spin in particular. As for growing the sport I think you need hero's. People relate to them, more people join the sport, more heroes will come. It will help to make people consider table tennis as a serious sport, and then when they start they'll find out it is the most awesome thing in the world.

Im not sure if i agree with you saying only people who understand the basics can play with pips. I myself started to play with short pips after playing a long time with 2 sides inverted. First of all im a non-athletic player but i can play a decent ball without decent footwork. There are allot of players that want to play at a decent level but don't have the 'talent' to get at that level with inverted rubbers. Is it fair to think only about the inverted players. Playing with pips is not easy and takes a differend kind of technique (that doesn't say their technique is bad, just not common for inverted players). Now i changed my rubber this year to 'Offensive pimples' on the backhand side. With inverted rubber i had the problem, but i had the nature of going back and stand far from the table to use long powerfull strikes to get the overhand in the rally. With my new offensive short pimples i don't stand a chance going back. I have to stay close near the table to get maximum profit of the fast action the pimples give me. I think on the long-term my backhand without pimples will improve for the close range rally's. Finally i want to say pimple players are part of the full community of table tennis, if there should be tournament for non pimples/anti, there should be tournaments for players without the ultra fast inverted rubbers (you dont have to hit the ball to get maximum speed and maximum spin, getting worse by the day).
 
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Im not sure if i agree with you saying only people who understand the basics can play with pips. I myself started to play with short pips after playing a long time with 2 sides inverted. First of all im a non-athletic player but i can play a decent ball without decent footwork. There are allot of players that want to play at a decent level but don't have the 'talent' to get at that level with inverted rubbers. Is it fair to think only about the inverted players. Playing with pips is not easy and takes a differend kind of technique (that doesn't say their technique is bad, just not common for inverted players). Now i changed my rubber this year to 'Offensive pimples' on the backhand side. With inverted rubber i had the problem, but i had the nature of going back and stand far from the table to use long powerfull strikes to get the overhand in the rally. With my new offensive short pimples i don't stand a chance going back. I have to stay close near the table to get maximum profit of the fast action the pimples give me. I think on the long-term my backhand without pimples will improve for the close range rally's. Finally i want to say pimple players are part of the full community of table tennis, if there should be tournament for non pimples/anti, there should be tournaments for players without the ultra fast inverted rubbers (you dont have to hit the ball to get maximum speed and maximum spin, getting worse by the day).

Well I meant that without basic understanding of spin you wouldn't really know what your pips do. So players who don't know those basics and start playing with pips will just hit random shots, and not play shots because they think it is the best way to return their opponents shot. Which imo is what a table tennis stroke is supposed to be :)
 
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As I said before the players in the playlist use anti or long pips. The only short pips player there is Jim Martin. The Skolnics and Jamison are the only inverted players in the playlists. Everyone else uses long pips or anti on one side. They switch between LP and anti as well. David Kang uses anti on one side twiddling with Jpen, Don uses LP, Mark uses LP, Vito uses LP, John uses LP.

How many videos did you watch seriously carl. It sounds like you looked at 2 play lists of the dozen or so there are.
 
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Well I meant that without basic understanding of spin you wouldn't really know what your pips do. So players who don't know those basics and start playing with pips will just hit random shots, and not play shots because they think it is the best way to return their opponents shot. Which imo is what a table tennis stroke is supposed to be :)
I agree with the point that you should first learn to play table tennis before you advance by changing rubbers (starters should also not start playing with super spinny or fast rubbers). I noticed that you can have some luck shots with pimples and because it's not a normal shot it's impossible to repeat. But if you rely on your lucky shot, you will never become good and control the game of table tennis (with or without pimples)
 
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I agree with the point that you should first learn to play table tennis before you advance by changing rubbers (starters should also not start playing with super spinny or fast rubbers). I noticed that you can have some luck shots with pimples and because it's not a normal shot it's impossible to repeat. But if you rely on your lucky shot, you will never become good and control the game of table tennis (with or without pimples)

Yep, that's how I meant it :) Ur point about non-pips rubbers is true as well. I know players who started to speed glue very early (years ago :)) and they will never master short game or short serves. Good point indeed :D
 
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How many videos did you watch seriously carl. It sounds like you looked at 2 play lists of the dozen or so there are.

I looked at the videos in John Wetzler's playlist. It was the first one I looked through. What I saw looked like 12 videos with 8 or 9 players one player who seems to be playing with smooth and attacking is blocked from view so I cannot tell if he is in another video in this playlist, it might be Gabriel. Of the players I can see, 6 players seem to be using smooth on both sides and 3 seem to be using some form of deceptive rubber. Micalah, Gabriel, Christian Drumm, Jamison Bernard, Larry, and the kid in the video titled "Teams" look like they are playing an attacking style using smooth and looping from both sides. That is 6 players that look like they are playing with smooth on both sides. Now, I could be wrong. But it looks like 3, deceptive rubbers players and 6 smooth rubbers players. In the video series with John Wetzler that I looked at, I did not see any place where the names Jim, Don, Mark, or Vito. But, lets say there are 9 players and you have already said that three of them are smooth rubber players. My math skills come up with 33.3333%. Not 10%. But what I saw looked more like 66.6666%. Again, I might be missing something. It is hard to see what kind of rubbers they are using from a video. But the players I mentioned are looping from both sides and do not look interested in defensive play.

The other thing I notice from these videos, these are all decent players. None of them are low level. None of them are 1200 level players just putting the ball over the net with no skill. They know how to play. The ones using pips are not novices getting lucky because of what kind of rubber they have put on their paddles. John Wetzler seems to be a decent player. The player who looks the worst is David (the small pehholder with some kind of deceptive rubber. I think you are saying he is using anti and twiddling). And he does not look so bad either for an older gentleman who seems to be outmatched.

But you are right, I scanned through the first playlist. Found that there were decent players and more smooth rubber players than I expected to find. And then even more briefly scanned through a few other videos from a couple of different playlists without really watching too closely. So I will try and look at some more. And again, I could be wrong about who is using what, but all the players I listed are offensive players who are looping from both sides and do not seem to be using Long Pips or Anti-Spin.

Now, do they have any videos of you playing? I would love to see footage of you playing if they have any.
 
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Oh I get what you're saying now Carl. No the players that are named in the play list are players at our club excluding Christian who was with us, but then moved away I believe. The same with Jamison. Gabriel and Micaiah are the Skolnick brothers and they are the only players in our club that play with inverted on both sides. John only plays the Skolnick brothers at our club. Everyone at the bottom aren't at our clubs those are tournament videos.

If you look at the names by playlist those are the Lancaster TTC members. We have 3 clubs here in Lancaster and 2-3 others in various locations around the county. Everyone except the Skolnicks uses LP or Anti or switches between the two.

As for me playing no they don't. I'll be uploading a few myself soon when I have the time to color correct. Mark does the videos for LTTC and he only brings the camera out when the big guys come out like Wetzler and Barney etc etc. He hasn't had a chance to video me as I come on days that the Big guys do not come because I have my own club on the days they do come.

I just want to point out that John and the Skolnicks are the highest rated players, but they aren't the best players. They have a bad attitude towards playing newer players and when David came out they thought he was just a 2000 rated player who wouldn't get much better, but he was actually an Olympic Nation Korean Team Member with Kim Taek Soo and some of the Coaches now in the 80's. He injured his shoulder so he can't play as hard as he used to. Now he uses anti to control the points from farther back, but after we told Dave one night that the higher guys were being disrespectful to him he played them all again and beat them 4-0 and only plays them when they're being respectful.

Just another thing I want to point out about rating and skill. Dave's skill level is most likely in the 2700+ range as he's played with Olympic Gold medalists and I'm not sure, but he may have been one of the top players had it not been for his injury. He's not even rated in the U.S., but with his wins in the league they've kept him around 2000. If he doesn't care about his shoulder though and only topspins the ball he's so much higher than what his rating shows.

It's funny that you should say that Carl. If you ask John or any of the LP players out there they'll tell you clearly how much the Pips give them an advantage. They only uses Pips for higher rated players because they know that they're lacking in an area that they would prefer not to improve in. They like the fact that a 2200-2500 rated player with inverted has trouble with their LP/Anti because they wouldn't be able to beat them otherwise.
They have told me how the Pips allows them to play at a higher level than they normally would because as they have gotten older they can't play mid distance like they used to.
 
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I found this article in The Tactical Table Tennis Website. It's about pips out game.

Long pips have always been controversial rubbers. This are some of the points made by players that complain on long pips, and my comments on each point:

They allow EASY control of spiny balls:
True, but note that EASY control is not BETTER control. Doing high quality shots is much more difficult than with inverted. Inverted players have a wide range of rubbers from where to choose, and they can select one among them that gives all the control they need too. Choosing a rubber that makes you control the ball is not cheating. It is a good idea.

They are hard to play against if you don't know HOW they work:
True, but this is YOUR fault only. Imagine how would you complain on inverted if it didn't exist, and you (a hardbat player, which never faced anything other than hardbat) faced a new player from another planet using heavy reglued Mark V rubbers with MAX sponge. If you were facing this player once per year, you would NEVER learn to play against inverted, since you need much more practice to get used to it. If you were AVOIDING this player all the time, the few (unavoidable) times you played against him, your performance would be even poor. That's what happen with long pips.

There's great variation on how long pips play, so LEARNING to play against them is not easy:
True. Long pips have a lot of parameters (such as pip's height, width, hardness, density ...) which can be adjusted to get specific (and very distinct) performances to suit different styles. Playing against JOOLA Badman (a hitting rubber) has NOTHING to do with playing against Double Happiness C7 (a chopping rubber). Also, some long pips are spiny while other are dead, some are deceptive while some are not, some can do spin reversal while some eat all spin, and all this types can be combined among them. But what gives more problems to players is that they return spin depending on the incoming ball's spin AND the stroke the long pips player plays. Note that inverted can somehow have great variation too, but when it comes close to some extreme behavior, they call it ANTISPIN.

Lots of players use long pips to COVER some weakness:
True. On the other side, lots of players serve & go for 3rd ball kill with ultra-fast equipment that they can't really control. In the first case, it's called CHEATING, and in the late case, it's called EVOLUTION OF THE GAME, but both groups choose equipment with the same purpose: to boost its performance. Both groups are likely to have problems to improve his game. Long pips suit very few players, same as very fast equipment. Those are not the wisest options, but neither can't be called cheating.

There are some truly DECEPTIVE rubbers:
True. There are some rubbers that have its parameters adjusted so tricky and extremely that can RANDOMIZE the spin they impart on the ball. This rubbers allow to push a no spin ball and get ANY spin (backspin, topspin, sidespin, even corkscrew). Every push comes different. It's a nightmare when they hit with this rubbers and you are at the other side. BUT this is not the purpose of this rubbers: a (highly) skilled played can play those deceptive long pips in a completely predictable manner. They choose this equipment since it has incredible capabilities (i. e.: instead of reversing spin, they can change spin's direction at his will). There are few legal and deceptive rubbers since the aspect ratio rule.

Long pips players take PROFIT of opponents' inability to play against long pips ON PURPOSE:
True. Lots of players use long pips as it's stated in (1), and take profit of (2), (3), (4) and (5) to boost their performance, specially at the lower levels, and SOME do this with the intention of take profit of opponent's weakness against long pips. This is cheating at the same level as doing a certain serve that you know your opponent is weak against (the common accepted 'way to go' by ALL the players). Some players complain that the difference is that serves have to be learned, and long pips just can be purchased. Well using long pips without leaving exposed his inherent weaknesses is very difficult to learn (and it is a must to play a SUCCESSFUL long pips game).

You have to THINK when facing long pips players:
Not true.You are not FORCED to think. You can play chess without thinking too. You can play your mindless looping style as usual and still win, but that will be unlikely if your opponent forces you to rally. Lots of players complain 'I don't like to think when I'm playing': That's fine, but they are playing with one important weapon less than a thinking player, and that could make the difference.

Inverted can be used to play successful chopping TOO:
True. But long pips are a MUCH better option since they provide better variation, much heavy backspin, and better handling and ball control to play defense. You can loop with 0.5 mm sponge too if you want (no, wait, that would be cheating because it's unusual).

Real ATHLETES don't play long pips / defense:
Not true. Some real athletes DO play long pips / defense. Look at the world ranking and you will see some (yes, there are few) real athletes playing long pips /defense.

Inverted is SUPERIOR to long pips:
True. That's just accurate. This has NOTHING to do with the fact that long pips are or are not cheating.

Returning the ball without taking CHANCES is very easy with long pips:
Not true. Returning the ball can be easy, but it is EXTREMELY difficult doing it in such a manner that your opponent can't attack (don't letting your opponent attack (or at least don't letting him to attack hard) is the ONLY way of play without taking chances). At top level, choppers play the riskiest possible game.

Long pips players do NOTHING but wait for opponent's error:
Not true. They have AT LEAST to return ALL the shots. Winning the point by opponent's error (whatever you think it means) is 100% legal, thus is no cheating.

Defensive styles at lower levels are much more EFFECTIVE:
True. At lower levels there are lots of unforced errors, so just keeping the ball in play, even poorly, and playing for safety will make you a tough opponent. This has nothing to do with cheating.

There are little or no chopper TOP players:
True. This is because they are at a HUGE disadvantage when facing loopers due to 40mm balls, glues, low aspect ratios, max sponges, carbon blades, etc... Still, there are a few players that choose this style and can be competitive. Imagine taking part in an F1 race with a 'street' sports car... and winning: You wouldn't be called cheater: you would be called HERO.


And here are the tactics to play against choppers (those using pips that is) :

1.Place your attacks at the center of the table. Attack at his elbow / pocket / body. Stay away from both his wings.

2.Move him close / far to table. Use drop shots when he is very far from table.

3.Do not put much spin on your shots if you can't handle they when come with reversed spin. If you send heavy topspin you'll receive heavy backspin.

4.Loop with a high arc with an upward motion. Your primary goal should be keep the ball in play, while looking for a chance to score.

5.If he's serving with long pips, his serves can't be spiny. Learn to kill them.

He probably can't attack against topspin well, but can attack backspin.

No spin can be hard to handle for some long pips. See if you can make him miss.

6.Try to cover the entire table with you forehand if you are fast enough. Get into ready position as soon as you know where the ball is going.
 
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