Practice play and game play so far apart!

[Der_Echte]

I can cope very well with many 1900-2100 level players by simply pushing the majority of their serves. if you push right off the bounce and can very your touch from short receive to fast/deep and spinny, you will handcuff a lot of attack-happy players. You attack some of the serves with a flip, a few of the long ones away from them, and vary your push on the rest.

Carl saw me play vs Master Chen like this not taking much risk on receive, except for my aggressive BH flip returns, which are not really all that risky if I step into position and look over the ball, the rest falls into place well enough.

I think I only attacked 1/4 of Master Chen's serves total. I pushed with the plan to have him step around the BH corner and be a bit off balance to give him only one lane to attack, then be ready to fast block away from him or his crossover and send him to the races. Even if I lost a point here or there blocking, it was worth it watching the master huff and puff to get to those balls to continue the attack.

I agree in essence with the spirit of attack all long serves, sometimes, it is simply good sense to use the Shock and Awe style of attack first and keep opponent in shock and off balance preventing them from really getting going with their good offensive attacks.

That is how Carl and I played doubles in the Korean club that last time. I BH attacked just about EVERY serve, short or not. When I got them good and concerned, I could get away with a fast deep push to set Carl up for a heavy topspsin. We set each other up for a long underspin 3rd ball, and attacked just about 100% of them (with very high landing rate and lots of winners or blocked balls for smash chances).

 

[NextLevel]

I think a little judgement ought to used. If one can safely push back the serves (that are not attacked EDIT by server) it is much higher percentage to attack the next ball.

I agree that in principle, one should be ready to attack any long serve, whether it is a deep return controlled without much pace or a strong topspin or speed shot.

I agree with the concept that not being ready to attack long serves or failing to develop the courage to attack them will stop a player from reaching much of a level... or at least force him to greatly develop all the other areas, hard to grow a higher level game with that kind of weakness.

It is silly to try attacking a long serve that you have no clue what the spin, depth, and curve is... just asking for failure.

There is, however, a way to cope with it and make some kind of positive return. You judge approximately where the ball will land, get tail down to see the ball, extend elbow/shoulder to the hitting zone, then using lower arm and wrist, you use 1/4 power to take the ball off the bounce to produce a ball that will go safely deep, hopefully to the crossover. You don't need to know exactly the amount of spin, just that there is some under or top spin on it. Taking it off the bounce on the rise with a loose hand pressure right after it lands makes the spin NOT bite on your rubber so much, especially if you are moving bat at impact even a little.

By attack, most people mean some form of topspin shot. I (and I am sure corbytoffee would agree) is not asking for the ball to be killed, but just to be played with some form of topspin, whether a roll, as you are advocating, or a good spinny topspin, or a loop drive/drive.

Anyone can push a long serve. It just should not be coached or recommended. Unless like you pointed out, you want to keep a player at a certain level much longer than necessary.

 

[NextLevel]

I can cope very well with many 1900-2100 level players by simply pushing the majority of their serves. if you push right off the bounce and can very your touch from short receive to fast/deep and spinny, you will handcuff a lot of attack-happy players. You attack some of the serves with a flip, a few of the long ones away from them, and vary your push on the rest.

Carl saw me play vs Master Chen like this not taking much risk on receive, except for my aggressive BH flip returns, which are not really all that risky if I step into position and look over the ball, the rest falls into place well enough.

I think I only attacked 1/4 of Master Chen's serves total. I pushed with the plan to have him step around the BH corner and be a bit off balance to give him only one lane to attack, then be ready to fast block away from him or his crossover and send him to the races. Even if I lost a point here or there blocking, it was worth it watching the master huff and puff to get to those balls to continue the attack.

I agree in essence with the spirit of attack all long serves, sometimes, it is simply good sense to use the Shock and Awe style of attack first and keep opponent in shock and off balance preventing them from really getting going with their good offensive attacks.

That is how Carl and I played doubles in the Korean club that last time. I BH attacked just about EVERY serve, short or not. When I got them good and concerned, I could get away with a fast deep push to set Carl up for a heavy topspsin. We set each other up for a long underspin 3rd ball, and attacked just about 100% of them (with very high landing rate and lots of winners or blocked balls for smash chances).

I will say this confidently - you will not beat me pushing a majority of my serves long, and if they are long serves, you will push them long if you push them.

Ultimately, these recommendations depend on what ultimate rating you are aiming for and how often you want to have to reconstruct your game. I am a guy who used to push 99% of my returns, even vs. long serves up until I was moving up and down between 1750-1900 . Right now, I am probably at 40-80% and with most I try to be short but some go long. But the issue I had was that I had to and continue to work to rebuild my game so that I am more aggressive on serve return. If you have long term high rating aspirations, instincts are more important than strokes. Strokes can be taught, but instincts are hard to change and take much longer. Again, the two are related, but putting the right stroke on a good instinct when a bad stroke was there is an easier fix than putting a good instinct to replace a bad instinct when the right stroke is there. That's my experience anyways.

Right now, I try to get lower rated players to change their games and play correctly earlier and earlier because those habits keep you stuck much longer than you want to be if you want to break the magic 2000. But if you want to break 1800, you can do it playing in multiple ways. The paths to higher levels are always narrower and narrower. To 2000, it is tighter and to 2200, even tighter. I just want people to know this so that they won't complain that someone gave them advice that kept them at where they were for many years.

Of course you can contain some 2100 players pushing 60% of their serves. Will you beat them consistently if you beat them? Very unlikely.

 

[NextLevel]

One last comment - there are high level players with relatively bad backspin games. The ones who got lucky that their opponents loop the first push from them so they never have to really push, or the ones who are good at countering topspin and never really played someone with a good backspin game/attack. I know a 2200 player who loses to just about any chopper at his level and would probably lose to a solid one 100-200 pts lower if that chopper could return the first loop consistently. In fact, I prey on such players myself because my backspin push is relatively heavy so it protects me against juniors who can't powerloop or heavy slow spin backspin.

But if you want to play like most players above 2000 have that problem or will continue to have it after the first time they play you if they are serious about improving, good luck. If their 2500 coach watched them play you, that problem tends to get fixed pretty fast and by the next time you are playing them, your ball pick up rate when loop after loop is whizzing past you is ridiculous.

 

[NextLevel]

Finally, we can see that there is a bug going round. Der Echte knows how to infect people with his rambling style. Now I know why Carl posts so much. And 42andbackpains as well. Der Echte got them. NL knows it now.

 

[Der_Echte]

Having never played vs you and you having seen some of my game footage, I would say you are in the better position to assess a NL vs Der_Echte meetup... and you are easily .5 to 1 levels better than me even with my near return to my former playing level.

I am not good a short returning a long serve. I am good at short return of a short serve I read properly. And that is the big issue many players (myself included and you to an ever lesser degree since you are working good and effective) is we fail to read spin well enough. That causes all sorts of problems with confidence to attack, whether it is flip or loop.

I agree that the technical and tactical stuff should be well understood and practiced to where you are not thinking about it. You already have an idea what you want to accomplish and simply move and execute. Much of the stuff is about seeing the ball right from a position of being ready and on balance. Having confidence is something that comes from your experience of being able to successfully repeat this and adapt to changes opponent makes. Lack of confidence is a killer and we unconsciously fall into a trap like this.

My point in earlier posts was there are options to push and still control the point if you can read opponent and be able to redirect. Some opponents are stronger more unpredictable or more devastating with their attacks and yes, a 2000 player will not get very far pushing everything to 2000-2100 crowd. In general, it is better to take the fight to opponent first, because players at or above 2000-2100 will not shy away from hitting you upside Ur head first.

 

[Der_Echte]

Finally, we can see that there is a bug going round. Der Echte knows how to infect people with his rambling style. Now I know why Carl posts so much. And 42andbackpains as well. Der Echte got them. NL knows it now.

Rambling? NL?

You make some posts that are LONG as the coastline of California, but I don't think they are rambling. You put out a lot of technical stuff worth seeing and you also tell a story.

I like to tell stories a lot so I will not take offense at teh accusation of rambling, nor will I be offended if anyone attributes me with others telling more/better stories than mine.

There is ALWAYS someone(s) bigger and badder out there and I usually find them in the wrong way if I try to throw my weight around , what usually happens is MY weight and me gets thrown outside somewhere.

 

[NextLevel]

Rambling? NL?

You make some posts that are LONG as the coastline of California, but I don't think they are rambling. You put out a lot of technical stuff worth seeing and you also tell a story.

I like to tell stories a lot so I will not take offense at teh accusation of rambling, nor will I be offended if anyone attributes me with others telling more/better stories than mine.

There is ALWAYS someone(s) bigger and badder out there and I usually find them in the wrong way if I try to throw my weight around , what usually happens is MY weight and me gets thrown outside somewhere.

"Rambling" came from Carl, not me. I blame Carl. Where is Carl to take the blame when you need him?

BTW, I have no original thought on TT - I just take what other people have told me and try to make it sound like I understand it, which in my mind is writing 10 pages on it because 1 page can only display understanding to those who truly understand and I am trying to impress those who don't...

More seriously, I agree with you.

 

[corbytoffee]

As stated above, if someone serves long and you push it back, your return is going to go long enabling the server to attack the 3rd ball. Obviously at the level Andy is at the minute, he could probably get away with this against others of his own level but if really wants to improve then he need to not worry about losing games at the minute and just concentrate on his technique. I noticed on one of his most recent videos that his coach had him working on short touch play. This will obviously benefit him well as he improves and plays opponents who do keep the ball short and low. There is nothing wrong with pushing, but if the ball is long then at all levels, players should be looking to attack. Looking at the larger picture, Andy going for and missing forehand loops/drives now is a minor inconvenience in my opinion when it comes to his 3 year plan.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Rambling! Yes! I say Der_Echte, NextLevel and that guy UpSideDownMe are just about 2650 in rambling and we all have our own unique styles of rambling.

NextLevel and I are OCD focused on one point and we hammer it home till it is covered completely. Der_Echte is ADHD and jumps from subject to subject and story to story. He also commonly makes his point in several posts back to back the back. But somehow, if you read what he wrote, for a while you are confused and by the end you get what he was talking about.

Hahahaha.

As far as info that will help the OP, about the serve I think NextLevel pinpointed the issue right at the beginning of the thread. Andy's opponent continues to hammer simple serves at Andy's switching point. Because Andy is not ready before the serve and does not adjust to the placement, pushing or topspinning may be a moot point. He would miss either if he is as badly out of position as he is.

How do you get set for the serve? Those serves are telegraphed. Andy could probably take a step in either direction during the toss to set up for his FH or BH. However, it would be better to set up when he sees the contact. But his opponent has chosen his serve spot before the toss. And Andy needs to start adjusting to wherever the serve goes. Because he is being caught out of position over and over.

So, to me, this is related to the issue I mentioned earlier in this thread. Setting for the serve is related to resetting after your stroke. If you watch the big boys, before the opponent's toss, they get really low (eyes at net hight) to see things better, then, as the toss happens they do a tiny foot movement to have their feet ready to move. Then usually by the first bounce on the opponent's side, they are moving to where the ball is going so they can get into position.

What Andy is doing is moving his arm over so that his racket is in line with the ball but his body is turned at an angle to his arm. That makes it really hard to have the blade face at a good angle to take any kind of shot. And it also makes it so your arm can't make a remotely good stroke.

So, in my opinion, push or attack, Andy needs to work on getting into position to receive the serve. Although, those serves are really very easy and he wouldn't have trouble attacking them if he had moved into position.

What is the fix for the issue: he has to practice resetting faster after his strokes. He has to practice getting ready before the toss and during the toss so he can be moving into position before the ball is on his side of the court. And he needs to practice against randomized ball placement so he has to move a little after every single shot to adjust to the placement of the next shot. Practicing at adjusting to random placement will actually help the problems he is having receiving serves and deeper in the rallies where he is simply not ready for the ball to come back when he makes a decent shot.


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[UpSideDownCarl]

Oh, and Der_Echte likes to talk about Chicken and Beer bets and winning free dinner. I like winning free dinner too. And I talk about what my 2600 level friends have told me and flirting with the waitresses and bartenders at SPiN. NextLevel shows his video revenge matches against various pips players. (Oops, that is on MyTT, hahahaha......)


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[Der_Echte]

If NL fails in hiz missions vs the pipsters... I got hiz back and will give him half my free chicken as commission.

BTW... I am at a rest stop somewhere south of Philly as I am en route at 1230 AM to beat the traffic.

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[agold]

I think the most simple way to put it is once you feel like you can do a certain stroke 99% when drilling it, apply it into game situations and then it will get more and more comfortable. Then tape matches and compare them to drills to see what you are doing differently, like you did. That video Carl and Dan put up is really good.

 

[NextLevel]

If NL fails in hiz missions vs the pipsters... I got hiz back and will give him half my free chicken as commission.

BTW... I am at a rest stop somewhere south of Philly as I am en route at 1230 AM to beat the traffic.

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You should have stopped at my Club. I played so badly today that you would probably have bageled me.

 

[Der_Echte]

I am not really worried about whether i could defeat you or not. You are a level better than me and the only goal would be to show i fight well.

I play significantly stronger vs pips players carl will confirm.

Playing vs pips is some challenging fun.

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[UpSideDownCarl]

I am not really worried about whether i could defeat you or not. You are a level better than me and the only goal would be to show i fight well.

I play significantly stronger vs pips players carl will confirm.

Playing vs pips is some challenging fun.

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Yep. Der_Echte has figured out how to make a living, or at least get free dinner, from playing guys who are not in great shape who he can make run around and huff and puff. Robert Chen has been as high as 2200 and Der_Echte gave him fits running him all the way to the wide FH side and all the way back to the wide BH side. Der_Echte gave him a bunch of stuff to turn and attack with his FH from the BH side and then just blocked it to the wide FH. Also, Der_Echte moved to all Robert Chen's short and wide angle junk balls and took care of them pretty easily. RC changed rackets and strategies four times in one match against Der_Ecthe and at the end it was duece in the fifth. RC is a good character and quite a comedian.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

As far as drills for receiving serve for Andy, if he had someone serving everywhere, just basic serves with about the same level of spin as the serves in that match at the beginning of this thread, except the server was placing them everywhere--short, mid, long; left, middle, right--and he was practicing getting to them and getting them back and he did that for say, 30-60 min a couple of days a week for a few weeks, his receive of serve would go up dramatically.

If in the training with his coach, the coach did a few drills with him to get his feet moving better, it would help a decent amount also.

One is a slow multiball drill: the coach feeds the ball slow and sort of high to random placement all over the table, everywhere, totally random, but slow. And Andy has to take all the balls with his FH which means, wherever the ball goes, he has to move to it and be in position to take a FH.

Another is almost like what they are already doing but the coach slows his shots down a little and makes sure that his ball placement moves a bit more so that every FH Andy has to adjust to where the ball is, small micro adjustments of an inch or two as well as larger adjustments of 6 inches to 2 feet.

I have one training partner who has been of immense help to my game in training with him. We are about the same level. I have a skill of being able to put the ball pretty much exactly where I want it. He has a skill of hitting with a lot of power. But when he hits, if he is aiming for the BH corner, there is a potential for the ball to go anywhere from wide angled BH off the side to down the line on the FH side. So, no matter what we are doing, if we are going BH to BH (at least in theory) I have to be ready for the ball to go anywhere. Same thing on FH side. As a result, that has helped my adjusting to random placement a decent amount. But I have also had a decent amount of drills that were designed as random placement thrown my way because you just need to be good at that.

The ball does not come back where you want it to or expect it to when the other person is trying to make it so you can't hit the ball. So, from practicing randomized drills, you learn how to move to the ball so you are in the right place to handle the ball, regardless of where the opponent hits it. Being creative with how to add more and more random elements to your practice helps you improve faster.

 

[NextLevel]

Don't worry about Andy - he will be fine and is just impatient. He has a really good coach who is just going through the logical progression of understanding his student before tailoring his lessons. His latest practice session bears that out.