stiga ebe v vs infinity

[joskelly]

Thanks for those comments. The OSP is an interesting proposition. Very well priced too. Is there a general rule to know when a player is ready to move up to a better grade of bat? There is no doubt a lot of wisdom in not rushing a youngster on to the top end blades to quickly. It is a recurring theme on many posts. If two players are of equal ability though, I'm guessing that a better bat might be what gives one the edge. How then, does one know when they are ready for a higher grade weapon?

@ joskelly: I absolutely agree with Rajah.

By the way, your photo of the Infinity delaminating is the best one I have come across so I have used it several times.

I do hope your right that Stiga has fixed the problem with the Infinity but I somehow doubt it.

However, I am glad you got a good one.

I do think, if your kid is used to the blade there is no reason to change. It is more than fast enough and if he can spin the ball well with it, then he has good equipment.

This sport is much more about technique than equipment.

Options of something if he wanted a blade that gave him more spin would be something like what I am using. The OSP Virtuoso Plus is an offensive speed blade with a lot of feel, GREAT dwell time, a high throw angle, lots of control, and it would help him generate more spin than anything else I can think of; or, at least, anything else that is as fast. That would give him more of an advantage than any of those carbon blades which are a tiny bit faster but get way less spin.


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[UpSideDownCarl]

Options of something if he wanted a blade that gave him more spin would be something like what I am using. The OSP Virtuoso Plus is an offensive speed blade with a lot of feel, GREAT dwell time, a high throw angle, lots of control, and it would help him generate more spin than anything else I can think of; or, at least, anything else that is as fast. That would give him more of an advantage than any of those carbon blades which are a tiny bit faster but get way less spin.

@ joskelly (again): Good post by guitch! That made me remember that the Rosewood XO would also be a great blade for your kid. Either the OSP Virtuoso Plus or the Stiga Rosewood XO would be great if you did change blades.

The thing with the Infinity is that, the outer ply is hard which isn't great for spin, and the inner plies are a weird version of soft. They almost feel mushy. It works. Plenty of people like the blade. If you get used to it and your Infinity is not one that delaminates you could use it for years and be fine. I know a player who is a pro who uses it. And he really likes it. So, in the end there is a personal preference thing. It is not like you need something better, or faster, or expensive and from Butterfly to compete at the top levels. But what I mentioned is why I think there are better blades out there. And I would still say, if the blade works for someone, there is no need to change it.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Thanks for those comments. The OSP is an interesting proposition. Very well priced too. Is there a general rule to know when a player is ready to move up to a better grade of bat? There is no doubt a lot of wisdom in not rushing a youngster on to the top end blades to quickly. It is a recurring theme on many posts. If two players are of equal ability though, I'm guessing that a better bat might be what gives one the edge. How then, does one know when they are ready for a higher grade weapon?

One thing you have to realize is that this sport is more about spin than anything else. Until recently most pros used All Wood blades that were either Off- or on the low side of things in the Off speed category. It is true that more pros are using carbon blades these days and that the Arylate Carbon combinations that Butterfly has developed are better than any of the previous carbon blades because they have the speed advantage of carbon added to the spin and feel advantage of Arylate. It is interesting though that, with all the ZL, ZLC and SZLC blades coming out, very few top players are using blades with Zylon. The carbon blades are primarily ALC blades, at least for the top pros.

But, look at Xu Xin: his blade is an Off- All Wood, 5 Ply blade and he gets more spin than anyone and his shots are as fast as anyone's.

In 2005 in the top 10 there were 8 players using all wood blades and 2 using carbon blades. Today, in the top 10, those numbers have reversed and 8 are using some for of composite blade while only 2 are using all wood. But you can still use all wood at the top level.

Here is, tactically, the advantage of a junior using an all wood blade until he hits about 2200-2400 (USATT). The most important part of developing technique is not speed but spin. Spin is more important on topspin shots than speed. Spin gives the player the ability to place the ball better, to arc the ball more, to hook the ball more. (When I use the term arc, I am referring to the ball's being pulled down, curving down towards the table, as a result of topspin; when I use the term curve or hook, I am referring to the lateral curve of the ball from sidespin). When hitting crosscourt, the arc and the curve of the ball allow you to loop and get the ball to land closer to the net and get a much wider angle. This is enhanced by a blade that IS NOT TOO FAST, that has MORE DWELL TIME, and enables you to get MORE SPIN. Whereas, a FASTER BLADE would make the ball go faster which would make the ball have less arc and less curve even if it had as much spin, WHICH IT WOULDN'T.

Blades like the Viscaria, the TB ALC and the ZJK ALC, all of which are excellent blades, are fast, but not too fast. They get good spin, but not great spin. They are good enough that a lot of players might not realize they would be better off with something a tiny bit different. But they are good enough. And those blades are really good for certain styles of play. So there are plenty of players where, that would be the perfect blade for them. But those players are generally pretty fully developed.

Whereas, a developing player would be forced into a style that might not be right for them with one of those blades. And the style would use less of those angles with the sidespin pulling the ball away from the opponent, than a very slightly slower, but noticeably more spinny blade would allow.

For the top players, most of them can do what I am talking about with any blade. But most of those top players developed their style with all wood, 5 ply, Off- blades. In a different thread I referred to how Ma Long was using a Nittaku Acoustic until he was about 18 years old. A Nittaku Acoustic is a 5 ply, all wood, Off- blade. My feeling is, if that was good enough for Ma Long in his first shot at the World Championships where he got to the semi-finals, perhaps it is good enough for most players.

However, in the end, a blade is a personal choice and most good players whose style has fully developed are fine with a good blade that is All+, Off- or Off and would be able to switch back and forth between them without most people noticing much difference.

So when is a young developing player ready to step up to something faster? I would say the best thing for a young player's development would be using something all wood, 5 ply and Off- or on the slow side of Off until he was approximately 2200-2400 (USATT rating). But not many kids are doing it that way these days. I would just say that the advantages of placement, spin, developing technique and having a blade that allows the kid to use a bit more of the power from his own body would all be worth it. Whereas the faster blade just does a little more in terms of speed for the kid which will slow the actual development of skills just a little.

 

[Rajah*]

One thing you have to realize is that this sport is more about spin than anything else. Until recently most pros used All Wood blades that were either Off- or on the low side of things in the Off speed category. It is true that more pros are using carbon blades these days and that the Arylate Carbon combinations that Butterfly has developed are better than any of the previous carbon blades because they have the speed advantage of carbon added to the spin and feel advantage of Arylate. It is interesting though that, with all the ZL, ZLC and SZLC blades coming out, very few top players are using blades with Zylon. The carbon blades are primarily ALC blades, at least for the top pros.

But, look at Xu Xin: his blade is an Off- All Wood, 5 Ply blade and he gets more spin than anyone and his shots are as fast as anyone's.

In 2005 in the top 10 there were 8 players using all wood blades and 2 using carbon blades. Today, in the top 10, those numbers have reversed and 8 are using some for of composite blade while only 2 are using all wood. But you can still use all wood at the top level.

Here is, tactically, the advantage of a junior using an all wood blade until he hits about 2200-2400 (USATT). The most important part of developing technique is not speed but spin. Spin is more important on topspin shots than speed. Spin gives the player the ability to place the ball better, to arc the ball more, to hook the ball more. (When I use the term arc, I am referring to the ball's being pulled down, curving down towards the table, as a result of topspin; when I use the term curve or hook, I am referring to the lateral curve of the ball from sidespin). When hitting crosscourt, the arc and the curve of the ball allow you to loop and get the ball to land closer to the net and get a much wider angle. This is enhanced by a blade that IS NOT TOO FAST, that has MORE DWELL TIME, and enables you to get MORE SPIN. Whereas, a FASTER BLADE would make the ball go faster which would make the ball have less arc and less curve even if it had as much spin, WHICH IT WOULDN'T.

Blades like the Viscaria, the TB ALC and the ZJK ALC, all of which are excellent blades, are fast, but not too fast. They get good spin, but not great spin. They are good enough that a lot of players might not realize they would be better off with something a tiny bit different. But they are good enough. And those blades are really good for certain styles of play. So there are plenty of players where, that would be the perfect blade for them. But those players are generally pretty fully developed.

Whereas, a developing player would be forced into a style that might not be right for them with one of those blades. And the style would use less of those angles with the sidespin pulling the ball away from the opponent, than a very slightly slower, but noticeably more spinny blade would allow.

For the top players, most of them can do what I am talking about with any blade. But most of those top players developed their style with all wood, 5 ply, Off- blades. In a different thread I referred to how Ma Long was using a Nittaku Acoustic until he was about 18 years old. A Nittaku Acoustic is a 5 ply, all wood, Off- blade. My feeling is, if that was good enough for Ma Long in his first shot at the World Championships where he got to the semi-finals, perhaps it is good enough for most players.

However, in the end, a blade is a personal choice and most good players whose style has fully developed are fine with a good blade that is All+, Off- or Off and would be able to switch back and forth between them without most people noticing much difference.

So when is a young developing player ready to step up to something faster? I would say the best thing for a young player's development would be using something all wood, 5 ply and Off- or on the slow side of Off until he was approximately 2200-2400 (USATT rating). But not many kids are doing it that way these days. I would just say that the advantages of placement, spin, developing technique and having a blade that allows the kid to use a bit more of the power from his own body would all be worth it. Whereas the faster blade just does a little more in terms of speed for the kid which will slow the actual development of skills just a little.

Everything in this post literally is very valuable and should be treasured even by a high level player. Nowadays younger players tends to shortcut everything just to say they develop faster than others, little do they understand that solid basic skills, mental toughness, technique are always always always the key to handle pressure during end game. "Confidence till the very end"

Thankyou for sharing Carl

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[joskelly]

Wow. Thanks for such a comprehensive answer Carl. That is hugely informative and really appreciated. My question now though is this: bearing in mind that the Infinity meets the basic spec of what you describe as being the optimum bat for an ambitious youngster, should I just let my son stick with it or, with the national championships being about six months away, should I get something like the OSP Virtuoso that doesn't have the limitations of the Infinity that you described whilst he's still got plenty of time to adjust? Would it be a sufficiently beneficial improvement to justify the cost and the adjustment curve?

One thing you have to realize is that this sport is more about spin than anything else. Until recently most pros used All Wood blades that were either Off- or on the low side of things in the Off speed category. It is true that more pros are using carbon blades these days and that the Arylate Carbon combinations that Butterfly has developed are better than any of the previous carbon blades because they have the speed advantage of carbon added to the spin and feel advantage of Arylate. It is interesting though that, with all the ZL, ZLC and SZLC blades coming out, very few top players are using blades with Zylon. The carbon blades are primarily ALC blades, at least for the top pros.

But, look at Xu Xin: his blade is an Off- All Wood, 5 Ply blade and he gets more spin than anyone and his shots are as fast as anyone's.

In 2005 in the top 10 there were 8 players using all wood blades and 2 using carbon blades. Today, in the top 10, those numbers have reversed and 8 are using some for of composite blade while only 2 are using all wood. But you can still use all wood at the top level.

Here is, tactically, the advantage of a junior using an all wood blade until he hits about 2200-2400 (USATT). The most important part of developing technique is not speed but spin. Spin is more important on topspin shots than speed. Spin gives the player the ability to place the ball better, to arc the ball more, to hook the ball more. (When I use the term arc, I am referring to the ball's being pulled down, curving down towards the table, as a result of topspin; when I use the term curve or hook, I am referring to the lateral curve of the ball from sidespin). When hitting crosscourt, the arc and the curve of the ball allow you to loop and get the ball to land closer to the net and get a much wider angle. This is enhanced by a blade that IS NOT TOO FAST, that has MORE DWELL TIME, and enables you to get MORE SPIN. Whereas, a FASTER BLADE would make the ball go faster which would make the ball have less arc and less curve even if it had as much spin, WHICH IT WOULDN'T.

Blades like the Viscaria, the TB ALC and the ZJK ALC, all of which are excellent blades, are fast, but not too fast. They get good spin, but not great spin. They are good enough that a lot of players might not realize they would be better off with something a tiny bit different. But they are good enough. And those blades are really good for certain styles of play. So there are plenty of players where, that would be the perfect blade for them. But those players are generally pretty fully developed.

Whereas, a developing player would be forced into a style that might not be right for them with one of those blades. And the style would use less of those angles with the sidespin pulling the ball away from the opponent, than a very slightly slower, but noticeably more spinny blade would allow.

For the top players, most of them can do what I am talking about with any blade. But most of those top players developed their style with all wood, 5 ply, Off- blades. In a different thread I referred to how Ma Long was using a Nittaku Acoustic until he was about 18 years old. A Nittaku Acoustic is a 5 ply, all wood, Off- blade. My feeling is, if that was good enough for Ma Long in his first shot at the World Championships where he got to the semi-finals, perhaps it is good enough for most players.

However, in the end, a blade is a personal choice and most good players whose style has fully developed are fine with a good blade that is All+, Off- or Off and would be able to switch back and forth between them without most people noticing much difference.

So when is a young developing player ready to step up to something faster? I would say the best thing for a young player's development would be using something all wood, 5 ply and Off- or on the slow side of Off until he was approximately 2200-2400 (USATT rating). But not many kids are doing it that way these days. I would just say that the advantages of placement, spin, developing technique and having a blade that allows the kid to use a bit more of the power from his own body would all be worth it. Whereas the faster blade just does a little more in terms of speed for the kid which will slow the actual development of skills just a little.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

If he plays well with what he has, just keep that. He would get more spin with an OSP Virtuoso Plus. The adjustment might be fairly easy. But I wouldn't say you need it.

If you did get the V+ for him and he tried it out for about 2 months, you would still have time to switch back if he didn't feel it worked for him. But my money says, in the long run, it is the better blade for his development.


Sent from the Oracle of Delphi by the Pythia

 

[joskelly]

Thank you Carl - and Rajah - for your advice. Going to have to give this all some thought now! Hmmm.

If he plays well with what he has, just keep that. He would get more spin with an OSP Virtuoso Plus. The adjustment might be fairly easy. But I wouldn't say you need it.

If you did get the V+ for him and he tried it out for about 2 months, you would still have time to switch back if he didn't feel it worked for him. But my money says, in the long run, it is the better blade for his development.


Sent from the Oracle of Delphi by the Pythia

 

[el gato]

Another thought that i have is to replace the stiga astro m that i play now with astro s.
I wonder, if i will do that i miss a lot of speed ? what is your opinion ?

 

[SquareBall]

You will gain speed, I am sure about this, as soon as we are talking about exactly the same sponge material reducing the thickness will increase speed.

 

[Shuki]

You will gain speed, I am sure about this, as soon as we are talking about exactly the same sponge material reducing the thickness will increase speed.

reducing thickness reduces speed.

 

[el gato]

I dont want to reduce thickness i want to go to softer sponge

 

[el gato]

i am back to ask you if can anyone compare stiga ebe v with xiom vega pro blade. Because i saw too many good reviews and i am thinking about it.