table tennis tips "Increase Spin in table tennis by Chinese coaching"

[UpSideDownCarl]

table tennis tips "Increase Spin in table tennis by Chinese coaching"

BUT .. I've found the forehand loop was stronger and spinier. My practice partner didn't know I changed the grip (I didn't tell him) and could only block 3 times before the ball popped out of the table. Hey folks .. it works!

I am glad you tried it and I am glad you found it works. I have never questioned whether the tips he presents, the stuff about table tennis technique are good for someone.

I have been using that basic method for gripping for years. As I said in an early post, I have heard at least 7 western coaches explain this information to me. I am not so sure it is Chinese at all. But I am sure it is one of many useful ways of holding the racket.

My question has more to do with the source.

1) Is this a person who does play and coach?
2) Is this a person who is mid-level, low-level, high-level?
3) Is this a person who has simply compiled information through internet sources without really playing, but with resources to find good information?

It is totally possible for a good coach to be not such a high level player, especially if he/she once was and now is simply older. But someone with good eyes and a feel for the game can coach at a high level even if they cannot play at such a high level.

Also, if the information is primarily compiled from good sources on the internet, which it actually looks like it is, I would not really have much of a problem with that if the YouTuber is honest about the fact and credited his sources.

In the video above, Larry Hodges hardly seems to be a source for Chinese coaching secrets.

And the issue, to me seems, if someone is presenting info, even if it is well researched and taken from good sources, but is presenting himself as the source, then knowing some valid version of the guys credentials would be useful. And if these are all sourced from other places, listing the sources would make the presenter seem more credible. Not listing sources and hiding credentials seems like there is an ethical issue at stake here.

But NextLevel gave a great option. A written bio which lists EmRat's experience as a coach and/or a player would actually be fine.


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[UpSideDownCarl]

Just some info. On this forum, presented by people from all over the world, I have seen information on:

-Racket speed and acceleration.
-The idea of touch to hold the ball on the rubber longer to get more spin.
-The idea that, for a developing player, the first thing one should work on is the skill to generate more spin.
-An all wood racket with good feeling, good dwell time and decent flex that is in the All+/Off- speed range (not too fast) is ideal to use for a developing player.
-That in a stroke you want to use your legs, your hips, core rotation and weight transfer, not just the arm.
-The information that it can be useful to hold the racket primarily with the index finger and thumb.

Now most of these details are good simple information. They certainly are not secrets. And they don't come from any single origin. In fact many of them come from good biomechanics or a decent understanding of the actual sport of table tennis.

If you watch a baseball player swing at a ball, he will use, legs, hips, core rotation and weight transfer also. Same with a tennis player. They will also be very relaxed and add pop on contact. Same with a boxer. In any sport, tension makes you slower and less able to move. Even in standing this is the case. If you were simply standing upright and tensing your muscles and someone threw something at you, it would be harder for you to react and you would react slower than if you were standing relaxed.

But during the movement, on impact, contracting gives added force. Even if you watch a cat, like a cheetah, running, you can see how relaxed their body is and how, on impact with the ground, certain muscles contract to apply force into the ground to propel the animal forward with more power. The muscles that engage are specific, but if you try to do that consciously it will cause muscles that should not contract to contract and mess the process up. But the feeling of adding impact into the ball for TT or into the ground for the cheetah is likely useful, even if, once the correct pattern is learned, the process can happen without the doer being conscious of the action.

So most of these details are simply information and don't really come from a particular country, nationality, race or even species. The biomechanics of physical actions are pretty interesting to analyze. And you can improve your technique by understanding these things.

But I feel being careful with how you understand this kind of information or what source it comes from. Especially, trying to learn online, it is easy to misunderstand or partially understand something and end up doing something else that may not be so good for you. With a coach, in person, they can instantly see if you are doing what they meant or something different.

When Damien Provost showed me the info about applying pressure on contact, he held my arm as he moved my arm through the stroke and he applied the pressure and said "ptha, into the ball," as he applied pressure during contact. So it wasn't really words. But he got me to feel it. And the sound he made really felt like it matched the feeling of the pressure on contact. That kind of thing where the coach helps you feel something specific is really useful.


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[Musaab]

Is this your experience so you want to share it with us? Seem contradicting, not?

I don't see the contradiction, why are we all here on this forum anyway ? it is because of information sharing. So yeah, let everybody share what they have. This guy has some well-presented stuff,just let'em share that, end of story.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

By the way, for a human, walking fast, if you think about it, you can feel how you are relaxed and apply force into the ground without ever having thought about what to do. Learning a table tennis stroke may be more complicated. And you do want to learn certain things on a conscious level. But at a certain point you actually also need to forget about them and let muscle memory and your hours and hours of training speak for themself.

I studied movement theory with this guy named André Bernard who died in 2003. There was one particular class where he was talking about movement patterns and learning the pattern and educating your body on the pattern and giving your mind good images to help it learn the pattern. And there was this woman in the class who kept asking the same basic question for movement pattern after movement pattern. She kept asking what muscles were being used. And André was getting more and more frustrated because it was obvious to him that the question was a repeat and the fact that this woman kept asking the same question meant she had not understood his previous answers to the question.

In frustration he stood up from his chair and he said: "do you see that movement?" And he sat down and stood up a few more times and while doing the movement he said: "it takes approximately 180 muscles, synchronized and timed to perform this movement. If we were trying to think about which muscles to use when, we'd all be in serious trouble. But if you take the movement pattern and use the imagery, it can help your system understand the movement better and improve your performance of the movement. But in real movement, all those technical details need to be put on auto-pilot or you will be way too tense in trying to perform the movements."

Now, if I presented that information anonymously and neglected to list my source, but instead simply presented it because I was trying to make myself look like an authority the subject, it could open the door for many abuses of power that have been common in the online world.

If the information and images EmRat do help people there is something valuable there. But being more transparent with who he is and what his sources and qualifications are would really be useful to him and all his followers. And he can do that without revealing personal details by releasing information on his qualifications and his source material.


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[tropical]

Folks ...

I was in this forum for a while but lurking more than contributing as I think playing table tennis requires physical trying not mental. Then this ERT (emratthich) post got me! Surprise? Well, yes, because other posters have failed to intrigue my curiosity and most of the time I see people here arguing nonsense.
I have never heard about good grip before. The 1st time I saw Danny Seemiller played I was shocked! Then I thought grip may be not an important part of playing. To tell the truth I've never had a formal training except watching videos from pros. Many years have been wasted on me I guess. I know I do not have a good grip because forehand flipping is not consistent, especially for heavy short spin serve. Now I can see the reason is that I do not allow enough momentum by allowing enough wrist motion to overcome the heavy under spin.
His videos can also be good for beginners. I disagree with some that said they are for more advance level players. I firmly believe in a good basic and fundamental skill should be had when a player is very young, when he/she starts out. As I (and you, too) got older I find changing habits is very hard and in the game my habits kick back and I become who I used to be.

 

[NextLevel]

Folks ...

I was in this forum for a while but lurking more than contributing as I think playing table tennis requires physical trying not mental. Then this ERT (emratthich) post got me! Surprise? Well, yes, because other posters have failed to intrigue my curiosity and most of the time I see people here arguing nonsense.
I have never heard about good grip before. The 1st time I saw Danny Seemiller played I was shocked! Then I thought grip may be not an important part of playing. To tell the truth I've never had a formal training except watching videos from pros. Many years have been wasted on me I guess. I know I do not have a good grip because forehand flipping is not consistent, especially for heavy short spin serve. Now I can see the reason is that I do not allow enough momentum by allowing enough wrist motion to overcome the heavy under spin.
His videos can also be good for beginners. I disagree with some that said they are for more advance level players. I firmly believe in a good basic and fundamental skill should be had when a player is very young, when he/she starts out. As I (and you, too) got older I find changing habits is very hard and in the game my habits kick back and I become who I used to be.

Ah, that helps explain why find this kind of stuff fascinating - you don't seem to have ever had a conversation with a higher level player about table tennis. Is your 2000 level estimate of your play from tournaments or is it from casual play?

 

[Shuki]

Ah, that helps explain why find this kind of stuff fascinating - you don't seem to have ever had a conversation with a higher level player about table tennis. Is your 2000 level estimate of your play from tournaments or is it from casual play?

I guarantee it's his own judgement on how he thinks he plays. Any player that's actually at 2000+ level, would have done a tournament to play that level of player by now. He lives in the United States, either he beats players at that level and would have a rating, loses to that level, or has never played that level.

 

[Baal]

If you optimize your grip for one thing, something else will suffer. So you have to make some choices, including how much to change your grip from side to side, because that entails some tradeoffs too. Different players find different solutions to this, including a good handle shape for what they do. This is true even within the top 20 in the world.

You need something that works but there has to be zen to it. If yor are thinking too much, you will be a mess. That is the problem with tightening just before hitting. If that isnt natural, it is anti-zen. You can train it relentlessly until it become natural. If you dont and have to think too much, it will hurt you. That is the choice.

 

[pgpg]

My 0.02$: I watched a couple of videos, mostly the ones about grip, I think. On the plus side, there are a couple of tips that somehow I never encountered before or did not understand, perhaps because I don't hang out with high level players enough, or because just reading about 'grip pressure' on several occasions somehow never clicked. There is something to be said for being able to find something simple that is a) important, b) easily understood, and c) somehow is not realized by a lot of players of a certain level. Think of it as a simple 'swing thought' from golf, or a mental picture/concept from Brett Clarke ('bear', 'whip' etc.).

On the negatives - it takes forever to get to the point in any single video, narration is a bit annoying and too dramatic (the music! the visuals! generalizations!). These videos could be 1/10 as long to get the same point across, I think.

 

[Baal]

Something else about grips and trade-offs. You sacrifice a little bit of whip motion and therefore a little bit of spin for stability in the stroke. If you are loose and tighten just before the contact, you are adding some variability -- degrees of freedom. If you get it just right the will really whip the ball. But you might be a bit wobbly. You need to know just how loose, and how much to tighten at just the right time, Or you can grip a little more securely, maybe not hit the ball like a world top 10, but be stable in a rally. Sometimes you have to work with what you've got.

As for the videos being too long, well Little Grasshopper, you can't rush a man who is revealing all of the Time Honored Secrets of the Mysterious East*. (Gong sounds off in the distance). A Wise Man needs ten times as much time as a normal person to get to the point**.

*of course in Kung Fu Panda, we learned that there is no secret ingredient.

** Actually not. Zen masters can get to the point with a single koan. You just need to figure out what it means.

 

[tropical]

I guarantee it's his own judgement on how he thinks he plays. Any player that's actually at 2000+ level, would have done a tournament to play that level of player by now. He lives in the United States, either he beats players at that level and would have a rating, loses to that level, or has never played that level.

That is a big assumption.

 

[tropical]

Ah, that helps explain why find this kind of stuff fascinating - you don't seem to have ever had a conversation with a higher level player about table tennis. Is your 2000 level estimate of your play from tournaments or is it from casual play?

I played US Open and other events 10 -15 years ago. Official rating is 1870. As I get older I do not want to compete anymore as I do not have strength to play a long round robin then get further. In my club I regularly beat 1900 and 2000 players.

 

[Shuki]

That is a big assumption.

so is assuming you're a high level player and discrediting players that have proved themselves countless times.

 

[Der_Echte]

tropical, you gunna get in on the action Sat PM? If my LA plans fall apart, I will be around Fri + Sat, but we will see.

I can see what a few good nuggets one has never paid attention to would turn a light on, I have had those moments and share them as much a I can.

 

[Baal]

Folks ...

I know I do not have a good grip because forehand flipping is not consistent, especially for heavy short spin serve. Now I can see the reason is that I do not allow enough momentum by allowing enough wrist motion to overcome the heavy under spin.

OK, but if you make your grip better for the forehand flip, what are you giving up? Make no mistake about this, you are trading off something, including some stability in your stroke. As for flipping short heavy serves, that is a pretty low-reliability shot for people even a lot better than 2000 unless the serve is too high.

I'm not saying your grip (and mine and other people's) can't be improved. But trust me on this, I have spent a lot of time experimenting with it (many years), and it can send you off into a tailspin where you are fumbling with your racket and simply thinking too much. Now, the idea that one should increase thumb and forefinger grip at just the right moment is not new, and it can help with some shots, you may find it extremely challenging to implement on others. Last night I asked a 2500 player what he thought about it and he just shook his head and said it is better to concentrate on your body and your feet.

 

[NextLevel]

OK, but if you make your grip better for the forehand flip, what are you giving up? Make no mistake about this, you are trading off something, including some stability in your stroke. As for flipping short heavy serves, that is a pretty low-reliability shot for people even a lot better than 2000 unless the serve is too high.

I'm not saying your grip (and mine and other people's) can't be improved. But trust me on this, I have spent a lot of time experimenting with it (many years), and it can send you off into a tailspin where you are fumbling with your racket and simply thinking too much. Now, the idea that one should increase thumb and forefinger grip at just the right moment is not new, and it can help with some shots, you may find it extremely challenging to implement on others. Last night I asked a 2500 player what he thought about it and he just shook his head and said it is better to concentrate on your body and your feet.

The idea of extra pinch at impact is something that you will naturally do if you are trying to make a whip pattern as you can't crack the whip without tightening the grip when you snap the forearm with a loose grip. For me the tightening is something that I don't think hard about and I just focus on the quality of the ball - the same thing is especially important when serving. In fact, one of the things I learned when I tried Brett's exercise with the grip whipping in the Advanced Mechanics video was that my grip was often looser than it needed to be. I didn't consciously change it, but found a different median over time.

 

[Suga D]

Timo Boll keeps his forefinger really high when he returns serve and then slides it back down...

IIRC we´ve been talking about this a while ago on this thread here.
https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/...n-table-tennis-by-Chinese-coaching-quot/page8
Actually it´s a technique his coach Helmut Hampl has taught him...

When Timo pushes and returns serve, his forefinger seems higher up the blade than most other players. Has he always done that and is their an advantage to it and does he recommend that?

Also, what is the most common mistake he sees in serious amateur players? What is the best way to improve without training 6 hours per day?

This an invention of the Trainer Helmut Hampl called "Druckpunkttechnik" (tl: pressure point technique).
It is a controversial technique even in DTTB. Patrik Franziska uses it too.

@MaLongPower: Good One.
This is really interesting. I also hope Timo can elaborate on this.
I know a few players who have practiced under Helmut Hampl, like Christian Dreher, Jochen Kaiser, Philip Butterfass, Tobi Beck, Thomas Keinath or Arash Momeni, but none of them ever mentioned that term in front of me. Sounds like a well kept secret.
I know the term 'Druckpunkttechnik' from Martial Arts and others, though. First time I hear this related to tabletennis.

Well anyway, here are my questions:

Firstly i'd like to ask Timo what he thinks would be necessary to uplift the image of tabletennis in europe away from a playground activity more to a professional sport.

2nd) since his Game is based so much on rotation, shouldn't on major events the best P-Balls available be used instead the ones from the company that sponsors/pays most?

Last question: if the top players were forced to use non boosted standard equipment does he think the world Ranking list would look different?

All the best, strength and health to him for the Olympic Games and the Future.
Thanks a lot for bringing us so many beautiful moments in tabletennis.

This an invention of the Trainer Helmut Hampl called "Druckpunkttechnik" (tl: pressure point technique).
It is a controversial technique even in DTTB. Patrik Franziska uses it too.

You can see the use clearly when Timo is receiving with the forehand. The indix finger is pointing upwards and is planted in the middle of the backhandrubber. This allows much more control while flicking and pushing. The downside is you need to adjust the grip afterwards.The grip in generel needs to be really lose and relaxed(racket pointing upwards in the starting position). Timo also has a special made thicker straight handle on his ALC which makes adjusting eazier.

Here is the reference form the book:Timo Boll My China
View attachment 9523

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

IIRC we´ve been talking about this a while ago on this thread here.
https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/...n-table-tennis-by-Chinese-coaching-quot/page8
Actually it´s a technique his coach Helmut Hampl has taught him...

Darn, Suga D, does this mean that German spies have successfully stolen Chinese secrets. Is that how these secrets get on TTDaily.

Okay, jokes aside, thanks Suga D for the great post.


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[tropical]

tropical, you gunna get in on the action Sat PM? If my LA plans fall apart, I will be around Fri + Sat, but we will see.

I can see what a few good nuggets one has never paid attention to would turn a light on, I have had those moments and share them as much a I can.

Can you come to Topspin on Saturday around 3pm? There are quite a few good players 2000+ at my club. You are a good player as I can see Vincent can't block your loop, and he used to be a solid 2050-2100 player. I don't think I can beat you but hopefully can give you a good time playing my new chopping/pushing style on the back hand with my long pips.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

The idea of extra pinch at impact is something that you will naturally do if you are trying to make a whip pattern as you can't crack the whip without tightening the grip when you snap the forearm with a loose grip. For me the tightening is something that I don't think hard about and I just focus on the quality of the ball - the same thing is especially important when serving. In fact, one of the things I learned when I tried Brett's exercise with the grip whipping in the Advanced Mechanics video was that my grip was often looser than it needed to be. I didn't consciously change it, but found a different median over time.

This is a great post. And, specific to table tennis it actually makes the same exact point that André Bernard was making about images and movement patterns to improve a movement or action rather than over thinking the technical details of what your fingers, hand, wrist, forearm, elbow, upper arm, shoulder joint, left arm, torso, hips, legs, heels, toes.....are doing. There are ways to improve the whole movement pattern, and there are ways to improve specific things, like your grip, or the amount of forearm snap, or the timing of turning your hips, but, ultimately, when you play, these things are done as a result of a lot of training and getting all those details into muscle memory so that ultimately, when you take a shot, you are imaging the arc of the ball and where you are aiming the ball rather than thinking, "I have to open my wrist and contact the inside of the ball to fade loop to the BH corner. As I do that I need to be relaxed and whip, and exactly on impact, I need to add pressure."

Or, at least for me, when I am taking a shot, I have an image in my head of the shot, the ball trajectory, where I am placing the ball. Not the technical details of what I need to do to get that to happen.

It is true, in training, there are times and ways to work on these things. If I hadn't, my FH would still be the abominable pirouette that it used to be where my stroke finished with me facing the BH side of the table, the racket wrapped around my left shoulder like in tennis, and my elbow higher than my racket. [emoji2]

It is always good to spend some time working on fundamentals. But know HOW to work on changing certain aspects of your stroke, grip, stance, etc is at least as important. And ultimately you want to move these changes into muscle memory so that you can go back to imaging your actual shots while you make them.


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