Technique reverting to pre-lesson standard. Why?

[UpSideDownCarl]

That makes me really wish we had more people in USA doing just that and buying from our company.

But that isn't gunna make our company grow much. Getting more kids into TT and getting them, their friends, and the MOM boss engaged in big numbers is the only way to grow.

Which is the Nexy blade that is really fast? The one that just came out recently that is the fastest blade that still gets good spin?

 

[TareqPhoto]

I will do coaching if i have time to be there regularly, what is the point to have coaching say for 100 hours and i do that 100 hours in 3 years? in all cases, if i will have coaching in the future at least i did test several blades before i start seriously, and i keep playing with one blade since 2 months now which is the DHS and i won a lot by this blade than my other blades, but, i think my losing is not because of blades or rubbers, i may win later if i have coaching even if i use 50 blades.

Anyway, it is about techniques and lessons to do before and during and after the games, if i don't learn from my winning and mistakes it means i did nothing just play like robots win or lose nothing else, but to fix or solve my mistakes in lose it needs more than just coaching itself, and equipment can help too but also not only, i don't go with one factor, if i will buy a table later when i move to my house this will fore me to hold the racket more and practice on things that the coach will tell me if i will have coaching, but if i go to the club once-twice per month and maybe less or little more in one month and now we will have a holy month i will not go there at all, and if the membership will expire i will stop going to that club, and i will go elsewhere to play.

 

[NextLevel]

Hi all.
I need some advice
My background to current Is as followe
Age 54. need to work on fitness as maybe 20% overweight, some flexibility issues but nothing to affect my technique?
I've started playing again 5 months ago after at least 40 years when I played a little as a junior.
I have lessons once a week with a well known international coach and play at a club once a week.
I also have a robot / practice facilities / table at home where I practice at least three times a week.
The lessons are going well (had 8 so far since my return to TT) as during the lessons stroke practice is good as is my understanding of what I'm trying to achieve even though I may not manage it a lot of the time
Problem is when I come to playing at the club, my technique seems to go totally out of the window as does my focus. My technique when playing matches seems to revert back to previous poor technique
Is this common?
All input welcome
Thanks

Hey, Andy, while you are not at a stage where this may apply yet, I would like to add one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet. Everything that has been said is true - just continue the practicing and add in some things that make it closer to real match situations. The thing I would like to add is to play as many players as possible with slower (and/or weaker) games than you.

You either want a better player who plays more slowly than you but is just consistent (so you have a chance to read the situation and take your shots, even if you lose because they just know how to place the ball or fool you once in a while), or a weaker player who also plays more slowly than you do so you have a chance to move to the ball and take your shots. At the level I currently play, they largely amount to the same thing, but at a lower level, there are some weaker players who play very disruptive styles and can be very aggressive so you rarely get a chance to do anything.

At my club, we have an inverted (on both sides) defensive who plays at the 2000+ level who everyone loves to play because he always gives you a chance to hit the ball (though he mixes up the spins when he is under pressure). I also play lots of lower rated players because I find that many of them give me the same quality of ball that higher level players infrequently but still do. Against the lower players, I get to practice making my shots against these balls stronger so that it transfers to my play vs. higher level players. Higher levels players may give me the same quality of ball but will disguise the play so I may not read it as quickly, but when you get used to looking at the ball over time, you can see what it is doing and just go by the signature, not the shenanigans that produced it.

Playing someone who is beginning at a similar level to yourself may create the problem that they don't have enough control to get to a good third ball or rally. So it's a balancing act. But they just might. But the one thing you need to do in this sport is give yourself room to make mistakes in putting the ball on the table while doing the right strokes. If you are an attacker, that is how the game is played.

 

[TareqPhoto]

Hey, Andy, while you are not at a stage where this may apply yet, I would like to add one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet. Everything that has been said is true - just continue the practicing and add in some things that make it closer to real match situations. The thing I would like to add is to play as many players as possible with slower (and/or weaker) games than you.

You either want a better player who plays more slowly than you but is just consistent (so you have a chance to read the situation and take your shots, even if you lose because they just know how to place the ball or fool you once in a while), or a weaker player who also plays more slowly than you do so you have a chance to move to the ball and take your shots. At the level I currently play, they largely amount to the same thing, but at a lower level, there are some weaker players who play very disruptive styles and can be very aggressive so you rarely get a chance to do anything.

At my club, we have an inverted (on both sides) defensive who plays at the 2000+ level who everyone loves to play because he always gives you a chance to hit the ball (though he mixes up the spins when he is under pressure). I also play lots of lower rated players because I find that many of them give me the same quality of ball that higher level players infrequently but still do. Against the lower players, I get to practice making my shots against these balls stronger so that it transfers to my play vs. higher level players. Higher levels players may give me the same quality of ball but will disguise the play so I may not read it as quickly, but when you get used to looking at the ball over time, you can see what it is doing and just go by the signature, not the shenanigans that produced it.

Playing someone who is beginning at a similar level to yourself may create the problem that they don't have enough control to get to a good third ball or rally. So it's a balancing act. But they just might. But the one thing you need to do in this sport is give yourself room to make mistakes in putting the ball on the table while doing the right strokes. If you are an attacker, that is how the game is played.

Those exactly what i do nowadays, as long i just play to enjoy so i do play against 2-3 players i love to play against, and time to time i try to play with others of different levels high or low, but i keep practice on/with those 2-3 regularly when possible, and they helped me to get some of my lost strokes back, one or 2 of them don't like to play games and just keep practice with different players, i also don't like to play games but i must do to keep on track with games.

Also, when i play games i always became under pressure of not losing or not doing mistakes, and that is why i mostly lose even to lower levels than me sometimes, i lose mostly because of my mistakes and not because they are good enough, because once i am in mood or not in pressure or relaxed they told me i am in another class, but i keep putting myself in bad situations playing off mood and say giving up many points easily.

Now, if i play against those high levels players, in my area it is either 2 things:

A. They never play so strong or serious against me and because they are in high level they only go with my weakest point and keep that to win without playing so aggressively, in this case it will be like i just keep doing the mistakes and don't learn much from them until i learn how to eliminate this weak point of me so they change their style.

B. Or, they play very serious aggressive so i have no chance at all to do anything or to learn anything and just lose set after set even without 11-0, it is like they just practice on me so hardly and smash me, but in this scenario i just don't have any choice and keep fighting or play any offensive or defensive i can to decrease the damage, once i get out of this game then i become strong on another opponent same my level or lower.

From this thread i think it is usual that many just came back to this sport after stopping and asking about how to get back their skills as before or even become better than before, i had a table before and was playing on it with many all levels a lot and was one of top players in the university that time, but i stopped long time and i just came back to it and went to a strong place, an academy club, so ofcourse i will face troubles facing many trained players there, but i hope once i buy a table and give more time to practice on it and do exercises too before i start a real serious coaching then i can be a tough player one day.

 

[dici]

The reason of people suggesting get a coach (or learn from some player who is somewhat good at teaching you, not necessary to be best player) before spent 10k on viscaria or whatever blades and whatever tenergies, is because once you get used to any bad technique in playing, it is very hard to adjust it. If there is someone to guide you what should notice on your arm, waiste, wrist, leg movement and understand wtf is spin in early stage, then you can just use a hardbat to beat many players after 1 to 2 years of training.

There is sometime called muscle memory. Once you practice in a bad technique long enough. You will automatically do it in that way even though after that you find someone to teach you how to adjust it and train 7 days a week for months.

 

[Der_Echte]

Which is the Nexy blade that is really fast? The one that just came out recently that is the fastest blade that still gets good spin?

The drunk or druggie joker who cracker-jacked his way (and failed) then smashed my Volvo window ended up taking my Nexy ruck (and nothing else valuable from the car (I had $20 of quarters for parking fees in the center console and he didn't open it).

The ruck had my Arirang and Kanaph.

Ironic Dan just reviewed them, did an international Hooligan from swim hiz way accross the Atlantic Ocean (or swim the Pacific and hike 5000 KM) just for a free crack at those two great blades?

Speed is a relative thing and our Nexy blades have dual impact that makes judging overall speed impossible, since it plays different on different impacts. All in all, both those blades are faster than your Peter Pan by 1 and 2 speed levels.

i am playing Lissom, the 5 ply Ash outer blade that plays a level or so slower than your Peter Pan.

Ironically, I play same level using ANY of my long term test blades from Nexy. When I drop down to the ALL speed class, I am forced to pay more attention to how I construct my points and emphasize spin and hopefully placement. I DO have a better game countering close to the table as those slower all wood blades make that task easier. I kinda like to park at the table anyway as you know. Cant do a BH flip if I am 10 ft from table .

I can play pretty much the same style with any of my blades as I have played them enough to use each one in a suitable manner.

In a thread-related note, I notice myself kinda going back to some of the mistakes I made in stance in my pre-Korea days as a result of two years of very infrequent TT. The last two weeks has gone a LONG way towards re-gaining my former playing level, but it is truly only halfway there. Still, going from 1600 level to low 1800 level in a couple weeks ought to make me happy with such favorable progress, but once you have played a certain level, then subsequently FAIL to play anything close to that level, it is a pretty disappointing bummer deal.

 

[TareqPhoto]

The reason of people suggesting get a coach (or learn from some player who is somewhat good at teaching you, not necessary to be best player) before spent 10k on viscaria or whatever blades and whatever tenergies, is because once you get used to any bad technique in playing, it is very hard to adjust it. If there is someone to guide you what should notice on your arm, waiste, wrist, leg movement and understand wtf is spin in early stage, then you can just use a hardbat to beat many players after 1 to 2 years of training.

There is sometime called muscle memory. Once you practice in a bad technique long enough. You will automatically do it in that way even though after that you find someone to teach you how to adjust it and train 7 days a week for months.

Honestly speaking, that is true, but the problem with me is that i know that i do mistakes with my techniques and movement and footwork even my hitting balls, but the only way is as you said is if i have a coach and keep practice and do lesson of each stroke and do exercises, and did have 2 times only trained by 2 different coaches and they told me what to do and what not to do in just 1-2 hours, but they said it will only work if i keep practice, if not then it will be pointless/useless of whatever they tell me or training me with.

So, that is why i want to buy a table once i move to my house, and buy a robot, and film myself and see what things i did wrong and slowly i try to solve it until i reach that level where i can't do anything more by myself and then need a coach so he can start or continue from where i ended, i have many videos for training, if i can follow that then it will be like i did coaching for about 20-40% i hope, so then that 60-80% i will continue with a coach later, but i have to keep practicing, and i don't really care much about buying many rackets now and wasting money and losing many games, it is just a matter of time when i will start having coaching and for sure that time i will be using only one racket, all other rackets are just backups.

By the way, the racket i use now is really very good in my hand, many tested it even the beginners and they loved it and told me it gave them a feeling as they know how to play, so even high levels and beginners agree that a racket have something to do or they have that kind of one racket is good to use and others is not good until have hard working to adjust, and my losing now is not because of rackets at all, it is because of bad techniques and styles and that is not solved by using one racket or 100, it will be solved only by having coaching, and while it is not available for me to have coaching now due to situations then i just keep buying to play with and have fun for a while.

 

[Suga D]

The reason of people suggesting get a coach (or learn from some player who is somewhat good at teaching you, not necessary to be best player) before spent 10k on viscaria or whatever blades and whatever tenergies, is because once you get used to any bad technique in playing, it is very hard to adjust it. If there is someone to guide you what should notice on your arm, waiste, wrist, leg movement and understand wtf is spin in early stage, then you can just use a hardbat to beat many players after 1 to 2 years of training.

There is sometime called muscle memory. Once you practice in a bad technique long enough. You will automatically do it in that way even though after that you find someone to teach you how to adjust it and train 7 days a week for months.

And it's not only that, tareq.
For example: if i would buy the most expensive surfboards, and i wanted to test those, i wouldn't even know what to test, since i can hardly manage to stand up on it. Now imagine how many things i could test and talk about, if i was a good surfer... Same goes for table tennis. With a better technique you can try out what suits you than not really knowing what you're doing and not really knowing what you should test (except maybe how the handle feels)

You can go around as a beginner and test the hell out of blades, till your wallet collapses, but once your technique has developed, it is gonna be a whole new world, since you know what you are really capable of and what not and what works for your playstyle and what not.
If you lay your focus more on being coached and being tought the right technique, instead of chasing yourself to get the best material out of all products on the market, your game's gonna develop easily. Remember, there is no "best-material", cause the best material is the one that suits your style of play...
Just my 2 ct

 

[TareqPhoto]

And it's not only that, tareq.
For example: if i would buy the most expensive surfboards, and i wanted to test those, i wouldn't even know what to test, since i can hardly manage to stand up on it. Now imagine how many things i could test and talk about, if i was a good surfer... Same goes for table tennis.

You can go around as a beginner and test the hell out of blades, till your wallet collapses, but once your technique has developed, it is gonna be a whole new world, since you know what you are really capable of and what not and what works for your playstyle and what not.
If you lay your focus more on being coached and being tought the right technique, instead of chasing yourself to get the best material out of all products on the market, your game's gonna develop easily. Remember, there is no "best-material", cause the best material is the one that suits your style of play...
Just my 2 ct

Don't worry, i bought more than enough and i stopped last month, and i already have many materials to test, just i focus now on to play more and enjoy, i don't worry about how many gear i have or how/when to have coaching, i will have time to decide for that in the future, and i already found my "best suits me" material/racket, and many told me even the coaches to keep that and don't change it, so i did and i am happy with it, but they prefer different type of blades, and when i did buy what they prefer i wasn't happy with it, so is me wrong not to go with what they prefer or they are wrong to force/recommend me to use what they prefer?

Also, i don't agree with your statement, i am a beginner i can test many things whether i know what to test or not, same in Photography, many asking for different cameras and lenses and many just recommend to start with one camera and one lens cheaper or affordable one, later those beginners asking for more or another options then they got that kind of replies about to stick with 1 item and worry later about more.

This thread title started with "Technique", so what is technique pre lesson is? why?

 

[Cornel]

The reason of people suggesting get a coach (or learn from some player who is somewhat good at teaching you, not necessary to be best player) before spent 10k on viscaria or whatever blades and whatever tenergies, is because once you get used to any bad technique in playing, it is very hard to adjust it. If there is someone to guide you what should notice on your arm, waiste, wrist, leg movement and understand wtf is spin in early stage, then you can just use a hardbat to beat many players after 1 to 2 years of training.

There is sometime called muscle memory. Once you practice in a bad technique long enough. You will automatically do it in that way even though after that you find someone to teach you how to adjust it and train 7 days a week for months.

Absolutely agree with your post, dici. I remember my coach once telling me that if you have bad strokes, you can change them to correct ones until 25-30 years of age. If you are older, it will be very difficult to correct your strokes(though I think it's not the case for 30+ yo people who only learn the strokes at this age).

How could you develop the consistency? Spin wheel exercises helped me a lot. It takes some time to get a decent consistency in your play. As for me, i began feeling that i am able to hit more and more balls on the table after ~1-1,5 years of playing.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

One thing I would say, you can change ingrained habits. It is possible. It is just hard and it is harder if you are doing the habit that needs to be changed for longer.

In the work I do I help people change habitual patterns of movement and postural alignment. Sometimes that leads to changes in habitual patterns of behavior. I am also sometimes helping people change habitual patterns of behavior.

I started playing table tennis 6 years ago when I was 44. I am 50 now. My FH used to be really bad. The form, the technique were not good. I hit the ball hard but the stroke was bad and my recovery time was terrible.

As a kid I played baseball. And that definitely effected how I developed my forehand in the beginning. About 2.5 years ago I decided I needed to completely change the form of my stroke. It was really hard. The stroke was all from my shoulder. My elbow started with a 90-degree bend in it and finished with the same 90-degree bend in it. So there was no Forearm snap at all.

I spent a lot of time adapting methods for changing patterns of movement to my FH stroke and it was really hard work.

For a long time I stopped playing matches because when play got more challenging my form would revert to the old bad technique. But it doesn't really happen any more.

So you can change the bad habits. You just really have to focus on it fully. But most people won't do that and it is much better to start off with good technique and not have to change and fix bad habits.

That is another reason it is better to start off with good coaching if you can.


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[mcaibyz2]

Andy

Please watch this video and try to change your mentality.

As you just started a few months ago, it is nearly impossible to beat those people in the club, who normlly played the game
for many years. Even though there are many players using the wrong techniques, their expierence in the game makes them stronger than they seem. If I were you, I will not try to win any match, but try to apply what I have learned in training. Another thing that you can do is not to play any match at all, but instead, set up target in your training. For example, forehand to forehand 50 rounds no mistake, or play against robot forehand top spin against back spin, with 90% successful chance. Once you achieve some basic target, add more difficulties such as more power and spin of the shot.

Always believe that you will eventually play better table tennis if you follow the optimal techniques than those who don't

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Btw: you can ask Der_Echte if the technique of my strokes is okay and he will be comfortable being honest. Hahaha.

A lot of the time when people see me hit and train these days they think I am higher level than I am. The reason is because my strokes are pretty good. So I have a lot of people think I am 1800-1900 but I am really 1600-1700 because my serve and receive and over the table skills are far lower than my rallying skills. But for a while I needed to get the stroke technique part straight before turning to focus on improving my over the table skills.

Now I am starting to focus on the over the table skills more. And it seems things are moving in the right direction.


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[Der_Echte]

Carl waz killin' me in some of the rallies, would take series of points from me until I got to focus on serving and control his serve. Carl could also reloop BH off bounce and some other things I could not do that make his level look higher.

 

[Liten]

Like you, I played when I was younger. Took up TT about 3 years ago at the age of 35.
I feel almost like ive cheeted caus of the switch from shakehand to penhold. I had to reinvent my hole game. Has taken about a year, but my game is at a totally different level than before.
Step by step, building up all the strokes while trying to get those legs moving..
Love it to bits.
If all else fails, redo everything from scratch!

 

[Suga D]

Don't worry, i bought more than enough and i stopped last month, and i already have many materials to test, just i focus now on to play more and enjoy, i don't worry about how many gear i have or how/when to have coaching, i will have time to decide for that in the future, and i already found my "best suits me" material/racket, and many told me even the coaches to keep that and don't change it, so i did and i am happy with it, but they prefer different type of blades, and when i did buy what they prefer i wasn't happy with it, so is me wrong not to go with what they prefer or they are wrong to force/recommend me to use what they prefer?

Also, i don't agree with your statement, i am a beginner i can test many things whether i know what to test or not, same in Photography, many asking for different cameras and lenses and many just recommend to start with one camera and one lens cheaper or affordable one, later those beginners asking for more or another options then they got that kind of replies about to stick with 1 item and worry later about more.

This thread title started with "Technique", so what is technique pre lesson is? why?

Sorry Andy for being a little offtopic, but i just wanna add one more last thing.

@tareq: i'm not in the position to advise you and of course i'm not your coach or anything. And of course you gotta do, what makes you feel good. I just wanted to make a suggestion. What i was trying to bring across is not that you can't buy as much you want, but that you're not allowing yourself to get used to a blade and therefore (from my point of view) you actually are preventing yourself from getting better. And as you wrote that seems to be pretty much what everybody else (e.g. your coach) was trying to say. Sure you can get yourself a HL5, but let me guess, your coach probably recommended a much slower blade. Well that is what most coaches i know would recommend. And there is a reason for that: if you get a fast blade, the blade is doing a lot of 'work' for you, since you don't have to hit that hard to play a speedy ball, and that might stop you from doing a full swing, but at a beginner's status it is quite important to learn a full swing and find out what you are capable of, so a slower blade won't do that much work for you and you got to swing harder to play the same speedy ball as with the fast blade. But that will help you to grow a feel for the ball which just takes some time. And one more thing: once your technique has developed your blades are gonna feel totally different, cause you've got a different feeling for the ball. That is all. Sorry for making this so long. Hope you didn't get me wrong. Just wanted to tell you how it looks from my perspective.

@Andy: sorry again, i just don't wanted to look like a spoil sport. But it seems you're in good hands, cause i read some real good advices here already. Keep it up.

 

[NextLevel]

SugaD,

TareqPhoto isn't wired like the rest of us. Accept it quickly and early or like UpsideDownCarl and myself, you will be stuck throwing 3*-balls into the ocean.

NL

Andy,

Everything takes time. I remembered when I came back to this sport 4 years ago (and I never learned to loop or spin the ball as a junior either). It was a humbling experience. Because I got better as an adult, I tend to be able to talk them through the process more easily than players who got better as kids unless those high level players who got better as kids have worked through making an adult better successfully.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

SugaD,

TareqPhoto isn't wired like the rest of us. Accept it quickly and early or like UpsideDownCarl and myself, you will be stuck throwing 3*-balls into the ocean.

NL

Andy,

Everything takes time. I remembered when I came back to this sport 4 years ago (and I never learned to loop or spin the ball as a junior either). It was a humbling experience. Because I got better as an adult, I tend to be able to talk them through the process more easily than players who got better as kids unless those high level players who got better as kids have worked through making an adult better successfully.

Totally classic post. Hahaha.


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[Der_Echte]

I thought Next Level waz gunna talk about jumping off bridges randomly.

 

[TareqPhoto]

Thanks

And sorry for long posts.