This why I don't complain illegal serves

[piligrim]

The serve already drives audience away anyway. Audience wants to see rally and what kind of rally can be done when it's all deceptive serve and third ball attack? Serve like Samsonov should be a mandatory for every player and give a harsh penalty for those who don't comply. Imagine how nice the sport will be if that ever happens.
I'm ranting btw, lol. Just got destroyed by hidden shovel serve today.

Why audience wasn't drive away before this rule was implement?

 

[piligrim]

The only way to increase viewership for TT is to simplify the game it for general audience and add more focus on rallies.

Its already done. Its called pickleball

 

[Metaxa]

The opponent will probably be able to see more than what is shown here. The camera is way too high here. But...if you look at where LSD stands at the table you can 100% assume that the ball is hit above the field of play and not behind the baseline. In doing so, he is clearly reducing the field of play.
A very good new rule would be that it would no longer be allowed to give services from the side of table but the full body would have to take place behind the table/baseline.

 

[blahness]

The current service rules are fine. The ball has to remain in full view of the net for the entire process. It is a simple to enforce rule if you have cameras that track the ball from the 2 net posts and automatically flags the server if it loses sight of the ball.

Unfortunately almost none of the top players are serving legally.

They just need to implement them and start penalizing players who flout the service rules...

Simple, fking Hawkeye would do the trick too.

Anyway, TT is sometimes really a mess due to all the cheats...

 

[blahness]

There could be a rule like your shoulders need to be square to the table, and this would eliminate all body block illegal serves. Maybe something less severe like you just can't have your shoulders perpendicular to the table.

But in the end, OP's post is kinda pointless. He's not a pro and it doesn't affect him. There have been a ton of actual pros complaining and getting upset about these illegal serves. Not just players that are considered hotheads like Moregard and Lind. Actual legends like Timo Boll have complained about Lin Shidong's serves.

When an ATG like Timo is complaining, you know it's not a small issue.

It will affect us hobby players too as young players will emulate this type of behavior. I'm already dealing with old guy no toss serves. I don't want to deal with mini-LSD wannabe middle schooler serves as well.

LOL the old guy no toss serves... add in some illegal pips and boosted rubber and you get the ultimate amateur player who can take out even retired pros xD

 

[rpb23]

One simple but extreme rule change can remedy the illegal serve once for all.
How about restricting serve with spin? In that case, you take away the main incentive of hidden serve: disguise the spin on the ball. Now, only speed, depth and placement will be part of serve game.
Just for the fun of it, how about demanding the server to announce what type of spin he'll serve? In this case, he also has no need to hide the serve.
I doubt most pros or even hobby players like this change as spin is a huge part of modern table tennis. Serving/receiving with spin variation are vital skills players spent years developing and fine tuning, not easily to drop this skill set.
Forcing serve plain and simple will certainly make table tennis much more beginner friendly. But will it improve its popularity?

 

[rpb23]

The current service rules are fine. The ball has to remain in full view of the net for the entire process. It is a simple to enforce rule if you have cameras that track the ball from the 2 net posts and automatically flags the server if it loses sight of the ball.

Unfortunately almost none of the top players are serving legally.

They just need to implement them and start penalizing players who flout the service rules...

Simple, fking Hawkeye would do the trick too.

Anyway, TT is sometimes really a mess due to all the cheats...

Well, if majority of pros are serving illegally, it's not the players fault, rather, the system (rule) itself is at the fault, which is exactly my point.

 

[blahness]

Well, if majority of pros are serving illegally, it's not the players fault, rather, the system (rule) itself is at the fault, which is exactly my point.

Yes. They dont dare to implement the system for eg Hawkeye because every single pro player is serving illegally and it will be a clown fiesta to the audiences lol....

 

[rpb23]

Assuming ITTF can acquire enough fund to improve service rule mess. Here is a possible tech solution using AI, specifically CNN nets to solve the problem.

Installing a camera(low to medium res suffice) behind each player so the serve's motion will be captured to emulate receiver's view. A fast multi frame CNN analysis will be processed and its output will be either 'pass' or 'fault'.
The key part of image element is the recognition of the ball and its trajectory(where it leaves the hand, height(6+ inches or not), vertical angle(within 30 degree or not), if the ball shows through until the contact point, etc). So, for AI, the task is relatively simple and only a moderate amount of training data set and training cycles are needed.
Of course, to run the system in real time, fast GPU is needed which is not cheap. Well, if ITTF really want to fix the serve issue, they could come up with the fund.

 

[NextLevel]

Glad to hear there are high-profile proponents of this rule change. The proposed rule could be even more precisely be stated as something like "The server's body must be entirely behind the vertical plane intersecting the back of the ball at the moment of contact." The best position to judge whether this rule is being followed is from the side of the table -- exactly where the umpire sits during matches. It is also equally enforceable at all levels of play, similar to service rules in other racket sports like tennis and badminton. It doesn't require some expensive camera tech.

It would be somewhat disruptive to players because it affects the most commonly-used serves in the game, including the forehand pendulum. Basically everyone would have to do only backhand, tomahawk/reverse tomahawk, and lollipop serves.

You can reorient the pendulum to make it happen in front of the body and Truls already does something like this. Something like this is also true for various serves that are side on. But this would require pros to change the way they serve and they have not bought into this.

 

[turbozed]

Yeah this reductio ad absurdum argument OP is trying to make doesn't seem to be convincing anyone.

It doesn't take crazy technology for these rules to be enforced. It just takes refs being bold enough to enforce the rules and more people to call out cheaters.

In the last game of the WCQ/Truls match, WCQ broke out two completely illegal serves to go up 2-0. Truls made a big fuss about it and WCQ stopped. If he hadn't stopped, he'd have a great forum post called "I don't complain about illegal serves and I also don't have an Olympic medal in men's singles."

The best way to make sure refs actually enforce the rule is if they are instructed to do so by organizations WTT/ITTF/etc. And that won't happen if fans stop caring about or make excuses for cheating. The pros seem to care enough about it where they outright make videos stating they dislike it but also feel like they have to participate in it to compete.

It's also a complete fabrication to say that literally every pro completely hides the ball on service. It's very disrspectful to the pros who do follow the rules.

At least this thread ended up generating some good discussion.

 

[NextLevel]

Assuming ITTF can acquire enough fund to improve service rule mess. Here is a possible tech solution using AI, specifically CNN nets to solve the problem.

Installing a camera(low to medium res suffice) behind each player so the serve's motion will be captured to emulate receiver's view. A fast multi frame CNN analysis will be processed and its output will be either 'pass' or 'fault'.
The key part of image element is the recognition of the ball and its trajectory(where it leaves the hand, height(6+ inches or not), vertical angle(within 30 degree or not), if the ball shows through until the contact point, etc). So, for AI, the task is relatively simple and only a moderate amount of training data set and training cycles are needed.
Of course, to run the system in real time, fast GPU is needed which is not cheap. Well, if ITTF really want to fix the serve issue, they could come up with the fund.

Visibility to the receiver at the point of contact is not the current rule. Please read the current rule, and some of the umpire enforcement summaries/prescriptions. The ball should be visible throughout the serve to the receiver and nothing should obstruct the ball and the infinite upward projection of the net. Most pros still serve behind their bodies which is in clear violation of this and the umpires can easily see this and enforce this but often don't. The language can be made more stringent to force serving in front of the body but the Grey area exists because people don't want to change serves. But the rule is clear enough that most serves can be faulted, but then fans boo, players pretend they have never been vaulted and the umpire is an idiot etc.

 

[NextLevel]

Here is an old Larry Hodges article that brings up one of the things that umpires tend to run away from: that the umpire is allowed to rule doubtful serves as incorrect. The rules are not the problem, the culture is the problem. Because if the culture was willing the change, the rules would follow quickly.

March 18, 2019 | TableTennisCoaching.com

Tip of the Week Challenge an Opponent's Strength. USATT Election As I write this, I am a member of the USATT Board of Directors. However, very likely later today I will no longer be on it as they will be counting the ballots in the current election. (I chose not to run for re-election.) The...

tabletenniscoaching.com

 

[lodro]

the bottom line is that every organization from the local clubs up to ITTF have put the whole
problem into the ""too hard basket""". It is so easy to make rules but so hard to police them.

 

[rpb23]

the bottom line is that every organization from the local clubs up to ITTF have put the whole
problem into the ""too hard basket""". It is so easy to make rules but so hard to police them.

That basket exists in many other sports as well, football, basketball, baseball, etc...
The basket in table tennis is relatively very small compared to others.

 

[rpb23]

Visibility to the receiver at the point of contact is not the current rule. Please read the current rule, and some of the umpire enforcement summaries/prescriptions. The ball should be visible throughout the serve to the receiver and nothing should obstruct the ball and the infinite upward projection of the net. Most pros still serve behind their bodies which is in clear violation of this and the umpires can easily see this and enforce this but often don't. The language can be made more stringent to force serving in front of the body but the Grey area exists because people don't want to change serves. But the rule is clear enough that most serves can be faulted, but then fans boo, players pretend they have never been vaulted and the umpire is an idiot etc.

The AI approach should be able to solve the issue. Reducing the human fact and let the machine be the judge.
If such an AI system (technically feasible just extra expense) exists today, it might fault many pros, how they gonna react?
I think if the majority of pros are faulted, they will cry out and launch a protest.

 

[Der_Echte]

The AI approach should be able to solve the issue. Reducing the human fact and let the machine be the judge.
If such an AI system (technically feasible just extra expense) exists today, it might fault many pros, how they gonna react?
I think if the majority of pros are faulted, they will cry out and launch a protest.

NONE of that is gunna happen until ITTF pays professional umpires a professional wage... as it is they are essentially volunteer forces. ITTF umpires make not even peanuts for pay. Umpires paid well will make consistent and proper calls, but that is not gunna happen in my lifetime or ur's.

Of course none of that is gunna happen until ITTF actually creates a situation for more than just the elite players to make good money... even TENNIS cries about only a few making good money when everyone in the WR100 makes way more than I will ever make.

 

[lodro]

That basket exists in many other sports as well, football, basketball, baseball, etc...
The basket in table tennis is relatively very small compared to others.

What's that got to do with the price of fish 😫

 

[Der_Echte]

Of course if ITTF finds a way to get Joo Sae Hyuk back into sport (and coach on natl level later) NONE of this will matter as ANY random rally vs a top offensive player results in EVERY human in the stadium on their feet going wild crazzzzzay ooh aah cheering literally every rally past 3 balls.

 

[Der_Echte]

What's that got to do with the price of fish 😫

We got a basket case here in this quote (not l0odro's) and lodro could use some white wine to go along with that fish.