Thoughts on External Carbon blades?

[TackyForehand]

I've recently come across some external carbon blade listings on Ali-express and was wondering how they would play. Extrapolating from existing inner and outer fiber blades, we know that the further the carbon from the center of the blade, the easier it is to activate and the better it is for backhand shots. Therefore I assume external carbon blades to have the minimal activation requirements and would therefore be the pinnacle structure for an offensive backhand.

There are other positives to having external carbon. You will never have to worry about sealing the blade or wood splintering. You can also use to the hardest sponge and be sure it will compress properly upon impact. It won't increase in weight or playing characteristics over time because water based glue won't soak into the wood. You can even use it directly as a hardbat.

Does anyone own an external carbon blade? Any thoughts?

 

[Fnub]

I asked this question a half year ago. Nobody tested them. Heard an opinion that the dwell time would be short and the blade overall may be very stiff. So soft touches could be uncontrollable. And will rubbers stick to the blade?

 

[Fnub]

Saw you using Battle 2 Gold on FH. Why did you choose this rubber?

 

[TackyForehand]

Saw you using Battle 2 Gold on FH. Why did you choose this rubber?

It's a shame nobody test them with the amount of EJs here. B2 Gold is excellent on fast blades. If your blade is slower, consider the 39d provincial or national versions.

 

[PaddyPolar]

By external carbon, do you mean that the carbon is the first ply? Or is it like an outer carbon where the carbon is the 2nd ply?

 

[ttarc]

By external carbon, do you mean that the carbon is the first ply? Or is it like an outer carbon where the carbon is the 2nd ply?

I think external carbon like this one https://aliexpress.com/i/32847751846.html

... but one might need luck when arguing with an umpire if these blades are legal or not.

2.4.2 At least 85% of the blade by thickness shall be of natural wood; an adhesive
layer within the blade may be reinforced with fibrous material such as carbon
fibre, glass fibre or compressed paper, but shall not be thicker than 7.5% of
the total thickness or 0.35mm, whichever is the smaller.

https://documents.ittf.sport/sites/default/files/public/2023-06/2023_ITTF_Statutes_clean_version.pdf

 

[TackyForehand]

By external carbon, do you mean that the carbon is the first ply? Or is it like an outer carbon where the carbon is the 2nd ply?

Yes, that's right.

I don't see why the blade wouldn't be legal. After all, it's just moving the carbon to the 1st layer. What argument could umpires make that disallows it?

 

[lodro]

XVT has got this blade on the market for a while now but not many sales .
For what it is, it is too expensive for me . I can wait until they are reducing the price to about half.
Re. dwell time, I would not worry because what ever blade you got , dwell time is always measured in micro seconds. 😁 with the right rubber one will hardly know a difference to a
standard outer carbon blade.
re. gluing : No problem, it is a smooth finish .
This is a heavy blade, mainly because in order to obtain the smooth outer finish
the carbon cloth had to be thoroughly saturated with resin.

 

[JJ Ng]

Yes, that's right.

I don't see why the blade wouldn't be legal. After all, it's just moving the carbon to the 1st layer. What argument could umpires make that disallows it?

I don't think empire can argue with you either.

Some existing outer carbon blades are already too fast for me. I would hesitate in that situation and my backhand strokes go haywire. I think I will pass on external carbon blades. I like softer inner carbon blades where I can execute my strokes with confidence. For me, there is such a thing that a blade might be "too hard" for me and it does not matter what kind of rubber I put on it, it still feels too hard.

 

[PaddyPolar]

I don't think empire can argue with you either.

Some existing outer carbon blades are already too fast for me. I would hesitate in that situation and my backhand strokes go haywire. I think I will pass on external carbon blades. I like softer inner carbon blades where I can execute my strokes with confidence. For me, there is such a thing that a blade might be "too hard" for me and it does not matter what kind of rubber I put on it, it still feels too hard.

Same, I like the feeling of a wood blade or inner carbon, because as you hit a shot, you can feel the contact better, and if that shot goes wrong , you know why. With outer carbon blades, a lot of feeling is lost for a small change in speed; not really worth it for me.

 

[lodro]

Same, I like the feeling of a wood blade or inner carbon, because as you hit a shot, you can feel the contact better, and if that shot goes wrong , you know why. With outer carbon blades, a lot of feeling is lost for a small change in speed; not really worth it for me.

I am not sure if you are parroting what other people have said or if you actually made this experience but in reality nothing is as straight forward as you quote. Many more variables come into play that will influence the feel of a blade.

Just to prove a point and because i am often getting bored I glued a few bit together,namely:
An old hurricane 3
A piece of plywood
and in between an 3mm thick laminate of carbon fibre.
Here it is:

Now I can not copy/paste the feel of this little experiment but it is a perfectly playable combo 😁😁😁 with plenty of feel.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

2.4.2 At least 85% of the blade by thickness shall be of natural wood; an adhesive
layer within the blade may be reinforced with fibrous material such as carbon
fibre, glass fibre or compressed paper, but shall not be thicker than 7.5% of
the total thickness or 0.35mm, whichever is the smaller.

an adhesive layer within the blade may be reinforced with fibrous material such as carbon fibre, glass fibre or compressed paper,

it says within, so inside the outer ply?

 

[Wakkibatty]

an adhesive layer within the blade may be reinforced with fibrous material such as carbon fibre, glass fibre or compressed paper,

it says within, so inside the outer ply?

That's certainly how I've interpreted the rule myself.

Also seems pretty clear that carbon fiber is meant purely *as a reinforcement* and not as a casing, external playing surface, or outermost protective layer for the wood.

Only way carbon fiber could be an outer layer, is if it were reinforcing a layer of glue that was stuck to the outer surface in order to hold it together.... But then it still breaches the whole 'internal use' clause, so it's still not legal.

Besides which, having carbon fiber on the outside of a blade would largely defeat the whole purpose of specifying a wooden blade in the first place. Why mandate players use a wooden blade at all if we can then legally wrap the whole thing in a far harder substance entirely?

 

[NextLevel]

Yes, that's right.

I don't see why the blade wouldn't be legal. After all, it's just moving the carbon to the 1st layer. What argument could umpires make that disallows it?

Because the rules currently say within the blade, not the outer ply. Blades like this have been sketchy in the past.

 

[Wakkibatty]

Because the rules currently say within the blade, not the outer ply. Blades like this have been sketchy in the past.

There's also a formal requirement that any external coating on the playing surface (paint lacquer etc) be less than 0.1mm thick.

I would imagine this necessitates the epoxy coating the fibers must ALSO be less than 0.1mm thick (as the epoxy is there to secure and protect the carbon fibers, which can be very brittle in isolation).

But 0.1mm of epoxy is nowhere near enough to stabilize the fiber matrix - it would flake and fall apart in less than a year.

I also doubt that the carbon fiber layer on that blade is thinner than 0.35mm. it looks to be 6K to 12K fabric, which is around the 240 - 260gsm mark in weight, and about 0.4 - 0.5mm thick, which exceeds the maximum thickness allowable for a carbon fiber layer in a blade.

 

[superbackhand]

carbon on the outside? isn’t that pickleball paddle?

 

[lodro]

Now see what you've done, by boring me to tears with quoting all these rules and allowed and prohibited thicknesses I took it a step further and my 3mm carbon blade works a treat.
🤣 🤣 🤣