what type of backhand?

[NextLevel]

backhand flick-punch

So when someone does it with the forehand, you call it a forehand flick smash?

 

[NextLevel]

Yes when used against strong backspin push or backspin serve, then the wrist has trouble going forward and then it becomes a flip really.

I think table tennis is simple and is hard, It is simple in that everything is the variation of the same strokes. Once you get the strokes down, you can pretty much perform anything you want to do. For example, the Harimoto siblings perform a backhand punch with top spin on it. Someone else can do a backhand punch flat and straight. Another person can do a backhand punch with slight back spin on it (which is basically what short pips do anyway). So all variation of the same thing.

Now banana flip and strawberry flip, I would consider those two things to be recent renovation in terms of strokes.

Outside of the that, the ball got bigger and become plastic so overall less spin. Instead of speed glue, factories from ESN and Butterfly just pre-tune the sponges before shipping those sponges out. Not much difference there!

No, it is not a backhand punch with topspin on it. It is the backhand analogue to playing an off the bounce countertopspin on the forehand side. It isn't that different from the Harimoto's base topspin technique, it is just taking the ball earlier since the incoming ball is heavy and shouldn't be allowed to rise or the ball will shoot off the table.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

No, it is not a backhand punch with topspin on it. It is the backhand analogue to playing an off the bounce countertopspin on the forehand side. It isn't that different from the Harimoto's base topspin technique, it is just taking the ball earlier since the incoming ball is heavy and shouldn't be allowed to rise or the ball will shoot off the table.

I think, perhaps, they would have to know how to counterloop to understand what you are saying. But that is what I see and you can see how they are using the incoming spin for that power with that compact motion and the whip mechanics.

The contact is fully tangential. In a punch it would be punching forward.

What NextLevel is saying also makes it make sense why they showcase the shot after each of the Harimoto siblings push and the training partner returns an OPENING LOOP. The opening loop is loaded with spin and that showcases the way the COUNTERLOOP takes the spin from the opening loop and uses the spin for the power of the counterloop. If you attempted to punch those spinny opening loops, the ball would fly up. They are spinning over the top of the ball with a lot of whip action to go with their tangential contact.

And anyone who understands counterlooping, you don't need a big stroke if the opponent gives you a lot of spin. You just need the right contact over the top of the ball....but a fast racket speed can make the counterloop lethal.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Photos:

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

More:

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

And side angle:

Just before contact:



Just after contact:

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Now commentary: both Miwa and Tomokazu, on their backswing have the racket to the left of their elbow (a normal backswing). In a punch you would pull the arm and racket straight back and punch straight forward so the forearm would not swing as in a regular stroke but instead pop forward as in when you actually punch.

I think if you swung your forearm like that when hitting a punching bag they would call it a backhand slap in boxing or martial arts.

You can also see that both Miwa and Tomokazu contact the ball with the racket facing mostly down and are contacting the upper part of the back of the ball and spinning over the top of the ball. The pop in the shot comes from the contact, the incoming spin of the ball, and the speed of the stroke, especially the whip action of the wrist.

So, I would say, all of that visual information confirms NextLevel's assessment: that is a counterloop.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

BTW: it can't be a flick or a banana because, by definition, a those shots are over the table shots on short balls, and these shots are from behind the table.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

These are all smaller/shorter stroke BH counter topspin shots and it focus on using the incoming spin/speed and brushing outwards fast, and allow the acceleration in spin and speed to go back to your opponent.

the female play has these smaller stroke on BH for a decade.
This version used by the siblings is with more power (higher risk). In the pass, it is just to place the ball back. Now, it is really attacking into the ball.

It is a common trait now (using more power), as this allow for a flatter arc, fast speed and heavy rotation on the ball.
What is deadly with this is, if the ball is to the center of the table, the player can place the ball in both wings of the table and open up the angle for a more attacking FH stroke.
some times if the "wide FH" placement from the middle of the table is so successful, it provides a direct winner already.
I actually just saw Li Yu-Jhun do one on Sunday, and that bullet was fast.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

These are all smaller/shorter stroke BH counter topspin shots and it focus on using the incoming spin/speed and brushing outwards fast, and allow the acceleration in spin and speed to go back to your opponent.

the female play has these smaller stroke on BH for a decade.
This version used by the siblings is with more power (higher risk). In the pass, it is just to place the ball back. Now, it is really attacking into the ball.

It is a common trait now (using more power), as this allow for a flatter arc, fast speed and heavy rotation on the ball.
What is deadly with this is, if the ball is to the center of the table, the player can place the ball in both wings of the table and open up the angle for a more attacking FH stroke.
some times if the "wide FH" placement from the middle of the table is so successful, it provides a direct winner already.
I actually just saw Li Yu-Jhun do one on Sunday, and that bullet was fast.

a working coach is truly a working coach. You are able to describe the stroke in such clear and concise context.

I too have been drilled by my coach on this type of BH. He wants me to play like a little girl, now I have a girlie BH 😜

This type of BH has a flaw indeed as I found out myself. What flaw?

When playing against 老阿嫂 / elderly geriatric housewife who has the uncanny ability to:
1. Do drop shot because their stroke / wrist is so weak
2. Ball habitually hits the net and drop down ( net-ball )
3. Ball unable to come over the table but instead always linger around inside the table ( double bounce )
4. Ball does not have spin at all.

This type of BH fail when going against 老阿嫂.

Forget to add, there is a sub-species of these 老阿嫂, called elderiticus housewaifutus with Long-pipsticus. They are the worse nemesis against these type of BH.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

a working coach is truly a working coach. You are able to describe the stroke in such clear and concise context.

I too have been drilled by my coach on this type of BH. He wants me to play like a little girl, now I have a girlie BH 😜

This type of BH has a flaw indeed as I found out myself. What flaw?

When playing against 老阿嫂 / elderly geriatric housewife who has the uncanny ability to:
1. Do drop shot because their stroke / wrist is so weak
2. Ball habitually hits the net and drop down ( net-ball )
3. Ball unable to come over the table but instead always linger around inside the table ( double bounce )
4. Ball does not have spin at all.

This type of BH fail when going against 老阿嫂.

Forget to add, there is a sub-species of these 老阿嫂, called elderiticus housewaifutus with Long-pipsticus. They are the worse nemesis against these type of BH.

By definition, you cannot counter topspin (counterloop) against a shot that IS NOT A LOOP. So, perhaps you did not understand that clear and concise definition that Tony gave.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

By definition, you cannot counter topspin (counterloop) against a shot that IS NOT A LOOP. So, perhaps you did not understand that clear and concise definition that Tony gave.

Dang it!

I am such a duffus!

When only having a hammer as the only tool in the toolbox, all problems seem like the same.

I recalled when I have just learned something uber cool like this counter-topspin technique, I was like a little kid first time having ice-cream inside an ice-cream parlour. I could not get enough of it and was trying to counter topspin everything. It was so so so fun.

 

[zeio]

The term used in the part 4 video is 「ドライブに対するバックハンドでのカウンタードライブ」, literally "BH counter-drive against drive."

The stroke is the equivalent of 反手快帶/BH quick guide or 反手快撕/BH quick rip in Chinese, with Miwa's demo being closer to the former and Tomokazu's demo being closer to the latter.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

a working coach is truly a working coach. You are able to describe the stroke in such clear and concise context.

I too have been drilled by my coach on this type of BH. He wants me to play like a little girl, now I have a girlie BH 😜

This type of BH has a flaw indeed as I found out myself. What flaw?

When playing against 老阿嫂 / elderly geriatric housewife who has the uncanny ability to:
1. Do drop shot because their stroke / wrist is so weak
2. Ball habitually hits the net and drop down ( net-ball )
3. Ball unable to come over the table but instead always linger around inside the table ( double bounce )
4. Ball does not have spin at all.

This type of BH fail when going against 老阿嫂.

Forget to add, there is a sub-species of these 老阿嫂, called elderiticus housewaifutus with Long-pipsticus. They are the worse nemesis against these type of BH.

With your example, when the ball comes dead from the aunty or granny.
It won't be a counter top spin, but more a flat BH punch. Maybe with some angle, thus a punch with top spin rotation contact.

overall, the BH has evolved a lot.
I recall back in the days, Euro style teaching says there is 4 shots to "learn".
fh push, bh push, fh top spin, bh top spin.

Now, just BH shots, there is a dozen attacking shots to learn.

 

[JJ Ng]

The contact is fully tangential. In a punch it would be punching forward.

I look at the video over and over again. The contact is not fully tangential. If the contact is fully tangential, then the ball would go into the table and not even touch the bottom of the net.

You can clear see if his and her forehand is going forward almost like punching the ball. Yes the contact point is on near the top of the ball but the wrist flip still has both forward and upward motion to it.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I look at the video over and over again. The contact is not fully tangential. If the contact is fully tangential, then the ball would go into the table and not even touch the bottom of the net.

You can clear see if his and her forehand is going forward almost like punching the ball. Yes the contact point is on near the top of the ball but the wrist flip still has both forward and upward motion to it.

Look at the stills I posted. Read Tony's post.