Why do people say LP's should be banned?

[turbozed]

It's not difficult or expensive to purchase a bat with long pips. You and your training partner can learn how to use it and train against it. Then you will be more likely to get eliminated by someone with serves you have never seen before.

You don't just enter a tournament without any preparation.

Plenty of premier division players have learned how to chop, even though they are attackers, so they and their training partner will be more ready for when they meet one in a tournament.

That's a great idea actually. I'll probably do that and have my coach do the basic LP stuff. He's advanced enough and has good feel where he can probably replicate it well enough without actually being a LP player.

I can do this because I have a ton of free time and my coach in Vietnam charges about 10 dollars an hour. Haven't found a training partner in America that would do something like this as most people I meet just want to maximize the enjoyment they have in their leisure time. Buncha slackers amirite?

Hopefully I'll get so good at it that I'll also forget that not everyone has the opportunity and time to do stuff like this, and I can condescendingly tell people that LP are essentially the same as different play styles with inverted rubber, despite them behaving fundamentally different as a matter of physics.

 

[NextLevel]

I think it would be different, players would figure out the weaknesses of the old playstyle and would train to best them. Staying closer to the table, etc.

Again, there are players who played in both eras still playing to today, in their 40s and even 50s. Chuang Chi Yuan, Timo Boll, Korbel, Samsonov etc. None of them were embarassed, even in their 40s, by the players you are claiming would smoke them out of the park. The evidence doesn't support your argument with respect to TT.

 

[Jan_]

Again, there are players who played in both eras still playing to today, in their 40s and even 50s. Chuang Chi Yuan, Timo Boll, Korbel, Samsonov etc. None of them were embarassed, even in their 40s, by the players you are claiming would smoke them out of the park. The evidence doesn't support your argument with respect to TT.

When was the last time Calderano lost to Timo? Samsonov was beat by ovcharov, that also beats Timo consistently, chuang also is pretty obsolete, this year he did do pretty good though. Korbel is completely obsolete, he's old, maze would be another story of he still played though.

 

[Jan_]

And this is the same Calderano that loses to Harimoto who had poor footwork during all those wins - see where this is going... the fact that players like Samsonov and Boll who played in both eras and did pretty well closes the argument for me so I am not going to imagine much. I have seen Korbel beat players like Ibrahim Diaw who on paper is a superior athlete. Let's stop this line of argument please.

Harimoto also beat ma long a few years ago, what's that supposed to prove? I won't lie, harimoto is on course for no1, he's chasing it. He's young and is still nowhere near the peak of his career.

 

[NextLevel]

When was the last time Calderano lost to Timo? Samsonov was beat by ovcharov, that also beats Timo consistently, chuang also is pretty obsolete, this year he did do pretty good though. Korbel is completely obsolete, he's old, maze would be another story of he still played though.

Are we talking about strictly winning or losing or that your argument is that today's athletes are supposedly much better than yesterday's athletes despite playing competitive games against said athletes? If Timo in his late 30s and early 40s is playing close games with Calderano or other athletes, does that help your argument?

Samsonov denied Dima an Olympic medal he (Samsonov) was injured in 2016. The arguments that today's athletes are just better in TT is very dubious based on the performance of athletes who played in both eras.

 

[Jan_]

Are we talking about strictly winning or losing or that your argument is that today's athletes are supposedly much better than yesterday's athletes despite playing competitive games against said athletes? If Timo in his late 30s and early 40s is playing close games with Calderano or other athletes, does that help your argument?

Samsonov denied Dima an Olympic medal he (Samsonov) was injured in 2016. The arguments that today's athletes are just better in TT is very dubious based on the performance of athletes who played in both eras.

The players you're talking about have also evolved. Take a 20yo Timo and put him up against a 20yo harimoto. That's my argument. Players nowadays become strong a lot quicker.

 

[turbozed]

Are we talking about strictly winning or losing or that your argument is that today's athletes are supposedly much better than yesterday's athletes despite playing competitive games against said athletes? If Timo in his late 30s and early 40s is playing close games with Calderano or other athletes, does that help your argument?

Samsonov denied Dima an Olympic medal he (Samsonov) was injured in 2016. The arguments that today's athletes are just better in TT is very dubious based on the performance of athletes who played in both eras.

This conversation is pretty intriguing because it made me think of two things that I've accepted as 'true'

1. Compared to the decades ago, athletes are faster, stronger, and better.
2. Evolution occurs slowly enough where physical changes don't have effects that we see in a lifetime

So I ran into this old TED talk from 2014 which started me thinking about this more

Unless there have been advancements in training methods, body type selection, equipment technology, or sport popularity (for a larger pool of athletes), I guess there would be no reason why athletes would be much better than their counterparts from just a few decades ago. Interesting topic.

 

[Jan_]

This conversation is pretty intriguing because it made me think of two things that I've accepted as 'true'

1. Compared to the decades ago, athletes are faster, stronger, and better.
2. Evolution occurs slowly enough where physical changes don't have effects that we see in a lifetime

So I ran into this old TED talk from 2014 which started me thinking about this more

Unless there have been advancements in training methods, body type selection, equipment technology, or sport popularity (for a larger pool of athletes), I guess there would be no reason why athletes would be much better than their counterparts from just a few decades ago. Interesting topic.

I don't think it's the athletes themselves that are changing. But the techniques and training methods themselves. Nowadays the game requires more power to generate the same speed that 25 years ago was much easier to produce.

Man I love this site, you can have conversation without arguing. Reddit is compressed toxic waste in comparison😂

 

[turbozed]

I don't think it's the athletes themselves that are changing. But the techniques and training methods themselves. Nowadays the game requires more power to generate the same speed that 25 years ago was much easier to produce.

Man I love this site, you can have conversation without arguing. Reddit is compressed toxic waste in comparison😂

You will eventually run into many forum members that'll make you rethink that. A few instantly come to mind. But yes it's fun to discuss topics like this in good faith

I think the problem here is that there's a certain vagueness when you say that players are 'better' today than before. Of course today's players are going to be better adapted for the new ball and train specifically for that, and maybe that encourages a faster and more physical style generally. But that doesn't mean today's players would be super successful if you transported them back 20 years into the past and they played with the old ball with the style they have currently.

Players at the time of the 38mm ball trained specifically for it and developed their skills to maximize their success with it. So it would be likely players today would be at a disadvantage against them, no? That's not even getting into the factor that TT as a sport was more popular back then, and there was a larger player base and therefore more competition (not 100% sure on that, but that's my impression at least).

 

[Jan_]

You will eventually run into many forum members that'll make you rethink that. A few instantly come to mind. But yes it's fun to discuss topics like this in good faith

I think the problem here is that there's a certain vagueness when you say that players are 'better' today than before. Of course today's players are going to be better adapted for the new ball and train specifically for that, and maybe that encourages a faster and more physical style generally. But that doesn't mean today's players would be super successful if you transported them back 20 years into the past and they played with the old ball with the style they have currently.

Players at the time of the 38mm ball trained specifically for it and developed their skills to maximize their success with it. So it would be likely players today would be at a disadvantage against them, no? That's not even getting into the factor that TT as a sport was more popular back then, and there was a larger player base and therefore more competition (not 100% sure on that, but that's my impression at least).

I see, today's players, especially younger ones, wouldn't have any familiarity with the old ball. Serve and recieve would be a complete annihilation and the length of the sets would require different tactics and overall strategy. Maybe that's why the oldies played a bit slower game, to maintain power for all 21 points and the sets. But even their techniques were a quite a bit more defensive, countering wasn't as extreme as is now, true 2 winged attackers like Kreanga and Boll were very few, and when these two came around they changed the game.

 

[blahness]

No matter how weird I play, I can't make my inverted rubbers into pips.

We're not talking about standard or having a style here. If you want to have a good argument against the post, at least have it make sense.

Yes I mean playing weird with inverted or pips/anti. The unfair thing is that the pips/anti player already enjoys this "unfamiliarity bonus" without doing all that much - it is simply equipment based.

I also try to play quite weird with inverted and it works to my favour often. For e.g. my BH opening "loop" is often just a lift which has residual underspin on it. I only occasionally add topspin when I feel like it.

 

[turbozed]

Yes I mean playing weird with inverted or pips/anti. The unfair thing is that the pips/anti player already enjoys this "unfamiliarity bonus" without doing all that much - it is simply equipment based.

I also try to play quite weird with inverted and it works to my favour often. For e.g. my BH opening "loop" is often just a lift which has residual underspin on it. I only occasionally add topspin when I feel like it.

Personally, I welcome the idea that there's an entirely different aspect of TT that I haven't yet run into and eventually it'll be a puzzle for me to solve and be extremely bad at in the same way I was hopeless (and to some extent still am) when I started playing. But I'm taking a long view of things and hoping I can enjoy improving at this game for decades.

But I can appreciate that there are people out there that don't have the same disposition as me on this and just want to show up to have fun rallies and occasionally hit a pretty shot that somewhat resembles something they've seen their favorite pro player make. And I can understand the frustration when they want to play somewhat competitively and then realize they have no chance of winning against players who have this equipment unfamiliarity edge.

I don't think I can agree with the idea that odd shots coming from inverted rubber is on the same spectrum as LP though. If you play enough against inverted players, you'll eventually run into all sorts of shots at some point in time. But it's just physically impossible for you to run into the type of shots that LP can achieve with something near the same stroke.

Even being aware of spin reversal rules doesn't really help since TT is all about ingraining things into muscle memory through 100s or 1000s of hours of practice. Without having a training partner or coach willing to help you with these hours (or I guess living in a country where LP is reasonably common), I don't see how one can become 'good' against them. Those that have become good at it are in a privileged position when it comes to resources, time, or circumstances. As someone who is new to TT in general and doesn't have any biases with regard to equipment history and tradition, this seems like an obvious point about 'disruptive' equipment.

 

[Metaxa]

You know, this is not the first time LP talk surfaced on TTD
I'm sure the same people, 5 to 10 years later will still "don't know how to play against them" and would still continue talking about it

It is funny, the 2 countries that I know of, that has the most LP players per capita are India and Taiwan
and all these theories of LP making TT non popular/a joke etc are false in these countries.
On the contrary, TT is very popular in Taiwan and growing super fast in India.

I wonder if anyone gave that some thought?

You can of course ask the question, why is TT growing super fast in India? But more importantly, why has it taken so long?

You are correct.

the lefty SA women's TT champion says the same thing when she plays against lefties too.
She said in South Africa, she is the only female lefty player.

There isn't any quality chopper in South Africa, so she struggles on the international stage.
and we don't even need to talk about cpen players.

So the same can be said about inverted too or even with lefties, which actually happens a lot more common I think.

Left-handed people are born that way, it's hard to change that, it's not a choice. I am also left-handed and practice all sports on the left. But indeed, they usually have an advantage. I don't know many people who enjoy playing against left-handers, especially when they use technical equipment.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

You can of course ask the question, why is TT growing super fast in India? But more importantly, why has it taken so long?

its always slower/longer in 3rd world countries.
The challenges 3rd world countries faced, is probably "unbelievable" to many in 1st worlds.
So sports development, is actually way low down the priority list.

India has improved a lot in recent years, so has its sporting accomplishments.
I do believe it is linked.

But it doesn't take the fact that India has always been up there in the mens side of things for as long as I can remember.
its only recent that the women's have also climb the world ranking ladder.

I do recall many years ago when the national team decided to grow and hire experts. This was maybe 10~15 years ago. I assume a lot of positive came from that.
It is on an upward trend and I can't say it is the same for your country (Greece), or could you comment?

Why it is growing super fast in India? I actually can't answer that to be honest.
I know quite a few things on India's development methods today and some bit and pieces of history there, but I don't have the full history on what or who did what. I do have my guests, but there aren't facts yet.

I do know Stag (an Indian company) does a lot for the sport in India. So much that they even open up academies to serve the juniors - as a "national training centers", with the centre equip with sport science technologies, expert and equipment. More advance than many national training centers in the 1st world.

Obviously with its women's number 1 being a LP player. Many kids are aiming to follow suite.
LP works better in women's TT and both Taiwan and India junior girls are overwhelmed with pip users.
Having spoken to national coaches, I have some common view points on why India is more successful than Taiwan in this area - not just pip players being stronger, but inverted players from Taiwan struggling against pip users from India in senior level (in junior level the same players had no problems....)

So we gone in a big circle - I answered you. It doesn't take away that 2 huge LP markets are also 2 huge TT markets, and PIPS didn't do any damage to the sport. So, it is wiser to find better excuses to why the sport isn't growing. As I mentioned, there is maybe a dozen things in this queue and LP isn't as glorified as some pointed it out to be.

Yes, I understand it can be a headache, but it isn't the killer.
I do believe if the TT culture and knowledge is more mature overall. then the problem of pips will be solved a lot easier.

Left-handed people are born that way, it's hard to change that, it's not a choice. I am also left-handed and practice all sports on the left. But indeed, they usually have an advantage. I don't know many people who enjoy playing against left-handers, especially when they use technical equipment.

Right-handed people can learn to play left handed. I know many that are fake lefties and has made it to national senior team levels for Taiwan. Including playing in world championships or even being LYJ's training partner.

Well, advantage or not, that is sport
same with football or basketball when people have a strong (side) against your weak(ness/side)

 

[Metaxa]

Personally, I welcome the idea that there's an entirely different aspect of TT that I haven't yet run into and eventually it'll be a puzzle for me to solve and be extremely bad at in the same way I was hopeless (and to some extent still am) when I started playing. But I'm taking a long view of things and hoping I can enjoy improving at this game for decades.

But I can appreciate that there are people out there that don't have the same disposition as me on this and just want to show up to have fun rallies and occasionally hit a pretty shot that somewhat resembles something they've seen their favorite pro player make. And I can understand the frustration when they want to play somewhat competitively and then realize they have no chance of winning against players who have this equipment unfamiliarity edge.

I don't think I can agree with the idea that odd shots coming from inverted rubber is on the same spectrum as LP though. If you play enough against inverted players, you'll eventually run into all sorts of shots at some point in time. But it's just physically impossible for you to run into the type of shots that LP can achieve with something near the same stroke.

Even being aware of spin reversal rules doesn't really help since TT is all about ingraining things into muscle memory through 100s or 1000s of hours of practice. Without having a training partner or coach willing to help you with these hours (or I guess living in a country where LP is reasonably common), I don't see how one can become 'good' against them. Those that have become good at it are in a privileged position when it comes to resources, time, or circumstances. As someone who is new to TT in general and doesn't have any biases with regard to equipment history and tradition, this seems like an obvious point about 'disruptive' equipment.

As I wrote earlier above, LP have nothing, but nothing to do with the logic of table tennis or physics. Hit balls with little effect to someone with an inverted rubber and that ball comes back and lands on the table. Hit another ball with slightly more effect and that ball comes back and lands just behind on the table. Hit a ball with a lot of effect and that ball comes back and lands behind the table. Completely normal, these are the laws of physics. Do the same against players with technical equipment and just the opposite happens. So completely against the laws of physics. Not really logical.
Is it playable? Of course it is! Can you learn it? Definitely. The question remains, why do people keep reaching for such materials? I know the answer and have little sympathy for it.

 

[Kopp]

The question remains, why do people keep reaching for such materials? I know the answer and have little sympathy for it.

Please tell 😂

 

[turbozed]

As I wrote earlier above, LP have nothing, but nothing to do with the logic of table tennis or physics. Hit balls with little effect to someone with an inverted rubber and that ball comes back and lands on the table. Hit another ball with slightly more effect and that ball comes back and lands just behind on the table. Hit a ball with a lot of effect and that ball comes back and lands behind the table. Completely normal, these are the laws of physics. Do the same against players with technical equipment and just the opposite happens. So completely against the laws of physics. Not really logical.
Is it playable? Of course it is! Can you learn it? Definitely. The question remains, why do people keep reaching for such materials? I know the answer and have little sympathy for it.

I don't think you mean that LP actually violate the laws of physics but I get your point. The way it behaves is counterintuitive to how we expect objects to behave even if we weren't already familiar with the properties of standard rackets and balls. So I imagine it's both difficult and frustrating to have to work against both inherent physical expectations as well as hard-earned muscle memory playing against inverted.

Oddly enough, this entire discussion is making me actually want to go play against LP because it sounds really challenging. It's kinda like having a different mode in a video game you already enjoy.

 

[turbozed]

For LP users out there, what would be a cheap way for me to create a racket to train against?

I have a Yinhe U2 that's relatively stiff. Would that work as a base? What is some good value LP rubber that I should consider?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Oddly enough, this entire discussion is making me actually want to go play against LP because it sounds really challenging. It's kinda like having a different mode in a video game you already enjoy.

This is the right attitude.

Michael Jordon's mom told him to hit the gym and become stronger and try again next year (when MJ was benched/didn't make the varsity team)

 

[Jan_]

For LP users out there, what would be a cheap way for me to create a racket to train against?

I have a Yinhe U2 that's relatively stiff. Would that work as a base? What is some good value LP rubber that I should consider?

Any all blade and down will work, get a yinhe neptune ox and you're good. if you're looking for a slow blade too, ge a yinhe m8s