Why do people say LP's should be banned?

[NextLevel]

It's not that pips are hard to play against, they just require specific tactics and things you normally wouldn't do.

I wish Gozo would find a real table tennis mentor and actually listen to and spend time with the mentor.

He already has enough skills, he just needs patience and a real attitude adjustment.

 

[NextLevel]

Long pips and antis are used pretty similar one to another, in this video it could be either of them, it wouldn't make a difference.

Not quite, it is impossibly hard to attack with frictioness anti, but not *that* hard with frictionless pips.

 

[NextLevel]

JJ, I hear you... but overall in USA from where I see TT, there are more training times going on, more teaching, more access to info, and the ABS ball makes it so damn easy to hit or spin vs spin and pace... so everyone trying to get better is getting better... better than they ever got before. It makes sense many players are getting better and play more advanced at lower levels.

Holistically, I say this is good.

For the ones who are just enjoying the sport and not getting better, well, you know how they feel.

Yeah, but they should live with what they chose, they are not forced to play anyone they don't want to play unless they want to compete, and you don't chose your competition once you decide to compete.

 

[NextLevel]

Even with the old ball it would be the same. People learned to take initiative like the Chinese did back in the day, now the game is faster than ever because the players are better than ever.

Nah, the old ball had so much action on it, that many of these things people do today athletically were much easier to contain by loading up the spin on the ball. I don't know whether it is celluloid or the ball size or both, but the ball just doesn't react the way it used to with rubbers.

 

[Loop Lob Smash]

Had this printed a while back.
Mostly in jest. Well, at least 50%.
Anyways, hope yall enjoying your TT as much as possible.
Cheers LLS.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

You know, this is not the first time LP talk surfaced on TTD
I'm sure the same people, 5 to 10 years later will still "don't know how to play against them" and would still continue talking about it

It is funny, the 2 countries that I know of, that has the most LP players per capita are India and Taiwan
and all these theories of LP making TT non popular/a joke etc are false in these countries.
On the contrary, TT is very popular in Taiwan and growing super fast in India.

I wonder if anyone gave that some thought?

 

[turbozed]

I've been playing for about a year and a half now and haven't even had a chance to practice against a LP player.

Lot of people commenting here that it's something that's challenging but completely fair once you get train and prepare for it.

I actually would love to train and prepare for it. But that would mean meeting someone around my level that uses LP, or paying a coach that knows how to use them. I don't have access to either.

So let's say I pay $100 to play in a tournament and get knocked out by a LP player. I agree it's fair according to the rules. But is it really my fault that I wasn't prepared for it even if I would've taken every chance I got to train against them but couldn't?

I think that's a factor that should be considered though I don't have much thoughts on the issue otherwise. If I run into an LP user I will lose 100% of the time because I've played against it 0 times and they've played against double inverted 1000 times. How can one even determined if someone lost due to "skill" in that scenario when the odds are so stacked against the person with no experience?

This is obviously the worst case scenario but many players fall on the inexperienced side, only getting minimal practice against LP. It's really hard to ignore the inherent imbalance here. Those willing to do so probably have access to a lot of LP practice partners. They've spent time and effort struggling against it and improving so of course they see it as a fundamental part of the game. But they don't realize they are lucky to even have had the opportunity when most people don't.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I think that's a factor that should be considered though I don't have much thoughts on the issue otherwise. If I run into an LP user I will lose 100% of the time because I've played against it 0 times and they've played against double inverted 1000 times. How can one even determined if someone lost due to "skill" in that scenario when the odds are so stacked against the person with no experience?

You are correct.

the lefty SA women's TT champion says the same thing when she plays against lefties too.
She said in South Africa, she is the only female lefty player.

There isn't any quality chopper in South Africa, so she struggles on the international stage.
and we don't even need to talk about cpen players.

So the same can be said about inverted too or even with lefties, which actually happens a lot more common I think.

 

[Jan_]

Nah, the old ball had so much action on it, that many of these things people do today athletically were much easier to contain by loading up the spin on the ball. I don't know whether it is celluloid or the ball size or both, but the ball just doesn't react the way it used to with rubbers.

The players would've worked with the companies and made rubbers that gave them an advantage. Now there are dignics 09c and hybrid k3, who knows what kind of rubbers we'd have if we still had the 38mm. Probably rubbers much less sensitive to spin where it would allow attackers to rip the ball like they do now. The equipment would've evolved around the ball.

 

[Jan_]

Nah, the old ball had so much action on it, that many of these things people do today athletically were much easier to contain by loading up the spin on the ball. I don't know whether it is celluloid or the ball size or both, but the ball just doesn't react the way it used to with rubbers.

Rubbers have also gotten better, but again the players. Imagine if ma long played with the skillset and power he had in 2015-16. People wouldn't be talking about kreanga, primorac and ma lin and wang liqin.

 

[NextLevel]

Rubbers have also gotten better, but again the players. Imagine if ma long played with the skillset and power he had in 2015-16. People wouldn't be talking about kreanga, primorac and ma lin and wang liqin.

I have never bought into the "today's athletes are stronger faster etc." hype. Some things are better sure but I am okay with not believing that anyone today was an athlete on WLQ's level. The man was an all time beast as a specimen.
And when I see players who played across eras like Boll and Samsonov, the supposed overwhelming superiority of current athletes becomes harder to buy.

I can accept that maybe players wouldn't use stuff that is as spin sensitive if the balls were still as spinny. But anyone who played in the 38mm era or if not has a 38mm ball will tell you that thing was hard to track when it was in motion, you could loop it pretty well using pips.

 

[Jan_]

I have never bought into the "today's athletes are stronger faster etc." hype. Some things are better sure but I am okay with not believing that anyone today was an athlete on WLQ's level. The man was an all time beast as a specimen.
And when I see players who played across eras like Boll and Samsonov, the supposed overwhelming superiority of current athletes becomes harder to buy.

I can accept that maybe players wouldn't use stuff that is as spin sensitive if the balls were still as spinny. But anyone who played in the 38mm era or if not has a 38mm ball will tell you that thing was hard to track when it was in motion, you could loop it pretty well using pips.

Imagine Calderano playing against a '98 Ma Lin. It's not even funny, Ma Lin would be looking for a pillow to hide under. These players make the new ball go with old ball speeds, now imagine all of that power put in the 38mm. IF it didn't shatter on impact then it would be a nightmare for the old players.

 

[blahness]

I've been playing for about a year and a half now and haven't even had a chance to practice against a LP player.

Lot of people commenting here that it's something that's challenging but completely fair once you get train and prepare for it.

I actually would love to train and prepare for it. But that would mean meeting someone around my level that uses LP, or paying a coach that knows how to use them. I don't have access to either.

So let's say I pay $100 to play in a tournament and get knocked out by a LP player. I agree it's fair according to the rules. But is it really my fault that I wasn't prepared for it even if I would've taken every chance I got to train against them but couldn't?

I think that's a factor that should be considered though I don't have much thoughts on the issue otherwise. If I run into an LP user I will lose 100% of the time because I've played against it 0 times and they've played against double inverted 1000 times. How can one even determined if someone lost due to "skill" in that scenario when the odds are so stacked against the person with no experience?

This is obviously the worst case scenario but many players fall on the inexperienced side, only getting minimal practice against LP. It's really hard to ignore the inherent imbalance here. Those willing to do so probably have access to a lot of LP practice partners. They've spent time and effort struggling against it and improving so of course they see it as a fundamental part of the game. But they don't realize they are lucky to even have had the opportunity when most people don't.

This is why it's not worth it to play standard in amateur TT. Anyone that plays standard is at a big disadvantage because of this effect you mentioned. Best to adopt the weirdest and most disgusting point patterns. You must have some specialities which ppl have no chance to practice against.

 

[Der_Echte]

You know, this is not the first time LP talk surfaced on TTD
I'm sure the same people, 5 to 10 years later will still "don't know how to play against them" and would still continue talking about it

It is funny, the 2 countries that I know of, that has the most LP players per capita are India and Taiwan
and all these theories of LP making TT non popular/a joke etc are false in these countries.
On the contrary, TT is very popular in Taiwan and growing super fast in India.

I wonder if anyone gave that some thought?

Marxists HATE it when faced with facts. Bring the smoke, even if fact do not matter to the complainers.

 

[Der_Echte]

Even with the old ball it would be the same. People learned to take initiative like the Chinese did back in the day, now the game is faster than ever because the players are better than ever.

Yes, I would agree that those who want it will figure it out somehow... but with 38 ball, it was more risky to flip serves as there was more spin and bats are pretty spin reactive... but techniques got better over time, so there is that supporting the ones who figure it out.

 

[kase]

Imagine Calderano playing against a '98 Ma Lin. It's not even funny, Ma Lin would be looking for a pillow to hide under. These players make the new ball go with old ball speeds, now imagine all of that power put in the 38mm. IF it didn't shatter on impact then it would be a nightmare for the old players.

That's a bit of hyperbole. He was really athletic, would replace his shoes like every week from the footwork training. I don't think athleticism should be defined simply by how much power a player chooses to use in their shots.

I don't think current players could use that power consistently with a 38mm ball as they would not be able to control it as well (spin variation was greater and more dangerous) and the ball could be blocked back more easily and dangerously with a speed glued 5 ply bat. Hence the Waldner blocking highlights video. It was a bit more effective in those days to be able to play a variety of spins and pace instead of only using power.

 

[kase]

I've been playing for about a year and a half now and haven't even had a chance to practice against a LP player.

Lot of people commenting here that it's something that's challenging but completely fair once you get train and prepare for it.

I actually would love to train and prepare for it. But that would mean meeting someone around my level that uses LP, or paying a coach that knows how to use them. I don't have access to either.

So let's say I pay $100 to play in a tournament and get knocked out by a LP player. I agree it's fair according to the rules. But is it really my fault that I wasn't prepared for it even if I would've taken every chance I got to train against them but couldn't?

I think that's a factor that should be considered though I don't have much thoughts on the issue otherwise. If I run into an LP user I will lose 100% of the time because I've played against it 0 times and they've played against double inverted 1000 times. How can one even determined if someone lost due to "skill" in that scenario when the odds are so stacked against the person with no experience?

This is obviously the worst case scenario but many players fall on the inexperienced side, only getting minimal practice against LP. It's really hard to ignore the inherent imbalance here. Those willing to do so probably have access to a lot of LP practice partners. They've spent time and effort struggling against it and improving so of course they see it as a fundamental part of the game. But they don't realize they are lucky to even have had the opportunity when most people don't.

It's not difficult or expensive to purchase a bat with long pips. You and your training partner can learn how to use it and train against it. Then you will be more likely to get eliminated by someone with serves you have never seen before.

You don't just enter a tournament without any preparation.

Plenty of premier division players have learned how to chop, even though they are attackers, so they and their training partner will be more ready for when they meet one in a tournament.

 

[Jan_]

That's a bit of hyperbole. He was really athletic, would replace his shoes like every week from the footwork training. I don't think athleticism should be defined simply by how much power a player chooses to use in their shots.

I don't think current players could use that power consistently with a 38mm ball as they would not be able to control it as well (spin variation was greater and more dangerous) and the ball could be blocked back more easily and dangerously with a speed glued 5 ply bat. Hence the Waldner blocking highlights video. It was a bit more effective in those days to be able to play a variety of spins and pace instead of only using power.

I think it would be different, players would figure out the weaknesses of the old playstyle and would train to best them. Staying closer to the table, etc.

 

[turbozed]

This is why it's not worth it to play standard in amateur TT. Anyone that plays standard is at a big disadvantage because of this effect you mentioned. Best to adopt the weirdest and most disgusting point patterns. You must have some specialities which ppl have no chance to practice against.

No matter how weird I play, I can't make my inverted rubbers into pips.

We're not talking about standard or having a style here. If you want to have a good argument against the post, at least have it make sense.

 

[NextLevel]

Imagine Calderano playing against a '98 Ma Lin. It's not even funny, Ma Lin would be looking for a pillow to hide under. These players make the new ball go with old ball speeds, now imagine all of that power put in the 38mm. IF it didn't shatter on impact then it would be a nightmare for the old players.

And this is the same Calderano that loses to Harimoto who had poor footwork during all those wins - see where this is going... the fact that players like Samsonov and Boll who played in both eras and did pretty well closes the argument for me so I am not going to imagine much. I have seen Korbel beat players like Ibrahim Diaw who on paper is a superior athlete. Let's stop this line of argument please.