World Tour Grand Finals 2018

[yoass]

No one is being played and exploited. We are all intelligent teens/adults who know how to think. We come here to have fun. Soccer teams have fans. Players have fans. National teams have fans. Corporations have fans. No one is naively embracing anything just because they do not agree with you.

I share your outset, but still hold that not challenging preconceptions (wherever they come from), and embracing them instead and enforcing them by passing them on unchallenged is detrimental ánd naive, and yes, those that echo these trumped-up plays of nationalism, race, and so on are being played for an agenda.

And if anything’s strange, it’s willfully closing eyes to this, instead holding to a perceived state of affairs that cannot be challenged, that must be accepted and embraced. For we have always been at war with Eurasia.

 

[yoass]

IT's called "The Modern Denial of Human Nature".

Seriously? Vague metaphysical notions of innate properties? Human nature can be called to witness as a last stand in basically any argument, and will serve any master there. She lacks substance, she does.

 

[NextLevel]

not true. I think it's clear from the way I worded it that I used a hyperbole to describe your position. Obviously, they don't "breed" no one. Your quite mild suggestion that someone adjustst their game to copy someone - that's what I'm calling you out on. Because when you look into details it becomes evident that you're far better off training against someone using their "native" style so to speak, than against someone pretending to be someone else. You know as well as I do, as a table tennis player, that you don't choose the style - the style chooses you. Try forcing a change and you're a couple tiers below your true level. What good are such practice partners? Besides, I don't even agree that He Zhuojia plays Ito's game. She's happy to initiate and maintain top-spin rallies where Mima goes for the kill.

People do adjust their games to mimic opponents, especially in *practice*. It depends on a variety of things, but the main one is the shot sequence that the opponent prefers. One thing I mentioned, and I could be seeing things, but no one has taken me up to discuss it, is that He Zhuojia seems to be using a faster and spinner pips on her backhand. She is not chopping or chop blocking as much, she is playing a purely offensive rally style. This might be independent of any style change, but I found it interesting. Maybe the timing of the style change is purely coincidental, but maybe it isn't.

In any case, I have seen enough TT to know I know what I am talking about. IT's not just about studying opponents but sometimes about practicing against their precise shot selections or the material they use.

China spent enough money to build a practice hall in Rio that mimicked the environment of the main playing room in the 2016 Olympics. Sure, some people use 900 page notebooks, but if you think everyone invests in the game similarly, you are living in lala land. The world is not a level playing field, but it is still a beautiful world (or maybe I am just in a good mood and happy with my life).

 

[NextLevel]

Lin Gaoyuan wins the right to get destroyed by Harimoto tomorrow

He did beat Harimoto convincingly the last time they played... that said, so did Calderano...

 

[NextLevel]

I share your outset, but still hold that not challenging preconceptions (wherever they come from), and embracing them instead and enforcing them by passing them on unchallenged is detrimental ánd naive, and yes, those that echo these trumped-up plays of nationalism, race, and so on are being played for an agenda.

And if anything’s strange, it’s willfully closing eyes to this, instead holding to a perceived state of affairs that cannot be challenged, that must be accepted and embraced. For we have always been at war with Eurasia.

How did you raise your children? How do you treat your wife? Do you favor them over others, or do you treat strangers like them?

 

[Atas Newton]

The first thing is that it is not a myth:

http://www.masatenisi.org/english/secrets.htm

The second thing is that it is no different from having someone play a certain style so that you can practice against it, which you have pointed out. What I don't get is that I would never pretend you are an idiot when discussing table tennis. Why are you pretending I am?

first of all, that's a very questionable and severely outdated source. Secondly, it deals with their practice routine. But your observations are based on competitive play of highest level. Which suggests that He Zhuojia has now become Mima Ito #2, not that she imitates her in practice. I'm sure they "imitate" someone in practice, even if it only means "you play that strawberry shot and I'll learn to deal with it". I hope you do agree that paints a picture way less outrageous than the practice of "cloning rivals", which was just never confirmed and, I maintain, is a myth. How do you emulate Waldner's feel? How do you emulate Samsonov's reach and technical ability? I interpret this quote in the article you linked:

According to Duan Xiang, a member of the Chinese Technical Committee of the Chinese Table Tennis Association, “We have a lot of Chinese Samsonovs and Waldners. Our players play against them every day and that makes the real match day easier.”

as a figure of speech taken literally. Of course there'll be players trying to be Waldners back in the day, in any country. That's quite different from the rumored system, where a player is told to be a Waldner and is nothing more than a practice partner. I mean, in this day and age it does surprise me people still believe that. Their trainings are on youtube. Those mysterious practice partners - we all know them. Fan Zhendong practiced with Zhou Yu. Ma Long practiced with Yan An. Are they programmed robots? No, just good players.

 

[NextLevel]

Once upon a time we walked on our knuckles.

An ancestor very likely did. In any case, I have dabbled in enough philosophy etc. Let's get back to TT.

 

[jawien]

I share your outset, but still hold that not challenging preconceptions (wherever they come from), and embracing them instead and enforcing them by passing them on unchallenged is detrimental ánd naive, and yes, those that echo these trumped-up plays of nationalism, race, and so on are being played for an agenda.

And if anything’s strange, it’s willfully closing eyes to this, instead holding to a perceived state of affairs that cannot be challenged, that must be accepted and embraced. For we have always been at war with Eurasia.

The fact that you should challenge any preconceptions you are faced with. does not mean that they are "wrong" automatically.
The China vs RotW rivalry has a long historical grounds, so deep that it basically infiltrated the notion of table tennis. Ask anyone (a layman) what nation is the best in table tennis. I bet even your Grandma will tell you it's China ...

Edit: Involving your Grandma into the discussion, might have been a risky move I admit right away Yoass : )

 

[NextLevel]

first of all, that's a very questionable and severely outdated source. Secondly, it deals with their practice routine. But your observations are based on competitive play of highest level. Which suggests that He Zhuojia has now become Mima Ito #2, not that she imitates her in practice. I'm sure they "imitate" someone in practice, even if it only means "you play that strawberry shot and I'll learn to deal with it". I hope you do agree that paints a picture way less outrageous than the practice of "cloning rivals", which was just never confirmed and, I maintain, is a myth. How do you emulate Waldner's feel? How do you emulate Samsonov's reach and technical ability? I interpret this quote in the article you linked:

as a figure of speech taken literally. Of course there'll be players trying to be Waldners back in the day, in any country. That's quite different from the rumored system, where a player is told to be a Waldner and is nothing more than a practice partner. I mean, in this day and age it does surprise me people still believe that. Their trainings are on youtube. Those mysterious practice partners - we all know them. Fan Zhendong practiced with Zhou Yu. Ma Long practiced with Yan An. Are they programmed robots? No, just good players.

The idea that Cheng Yinghua and Larry Hodges are questionable sources is not something I can accept. They are both USATT Hall of famers and Cheng was a practice partner for China's penholders in the 80s and a strong world class player even well after his prime.

So the word "clone" is what offends you, not the substance of what was said. Good. So let's get back to serious TT, and stop making others sound like idiots because they are not saying it how we think they should say it.

Cloning rivals has always meant that you play like the rival in practice and you are a practice partner who studies what the rival does so that people can practice against their shot sequences. It is nothing preposterous or special. And it goes on in other countries as well. The problem is that you need the resources to make it happen, and most countries don't even have the quality of players.

In any case, I suspect that He Zhuojia is getting more opportunities in part because she is simulating Ito as a practice partner. Let's move on.

 

[Atas Newton]

China spent enough money to build a practice hall in Rio that mimicked the environment of the main playing room in the 2016 Olympics. Sure, some people use 900 page notebooks, but if you think everyone invests in the game similarly, you are living in lala land. The world is not a level playing field, but it is still a beautiful world (or maybe I am just in a good mood and happy with my life).

but that's besides the point. I know full well China has the best infrastructure, by a long way. Why it triggeres me when people talk about them cloning the opponents is the moral aspect of it. It basically assumes they ignore human virtues in pursuit of gold medals. That's a big claim to make without solid evidence. Anyway, this type of an argument:

People do adjust their games to mimic opponents, especially in *practice*. It depends on a variety of things, but the main one is the shot sequence that the opponent prefers. One thing I mentioned, and I could be seeing things, but no one has taken me up to discuss it, is that He Zhuojia seems to be using a faster and spinner pips on her backhand. She is not chopping or chop blocking as much, she is playing a purely offensive rally style. This might be independent of any style change, but I found it interesting. Maybe the timing of the style change is purely coincidental, but maybe it isn't.

I have nothing against. It's all in the connotations. I respect your knowledge and apologize if it appeared that I question it. I assumed that you know, that I know who you are.

 

[Atas Newton]

The idea that Cheng Yinghua and Larry Hodges are questionable sources is not something I can accept. They are both USATT Hall of famers and Cheng was a practice partner for China's penholders in the 80s and a strong world class player even well after his prime.

it's politics, what do you want. USA doesn't like China, never did. Same with Russia. Whenever we win, it's because we're doped. China wins - oh they just have these 10 guys copying Waldner.

 

[jamesmith]

What is wrong now? Winning is crime? Why so many people not happy if the Chinese win. Look at Tennis before, USA won man and woman titles all the time, the top 3 to 5 players from USA. Nobody said anything. USA won swimming and Athletic , basket ball....etc God knows how many time USA won basket ball titles. So what !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Many other countries also trying very hard to find ways to beat Chinese , so Chinese does the same to try to win. It is normal. We should just enjoy the game. ,no matter who win or not. We watch the game to enjoy and learn how to play well. If you just want to watch because you want to see Chinese lose, no need to watch, just look at the result later.

 

[jawien]

What is wrong now? Winning is crime? Why so many people not happy if the Chinese win. Look at Tennis before, USA won man and woman titles all the time, the top 3 to 5 players from USA. Nobody said anything. [..]

Yeah ... ; ) and what's even more mysterious, it was the Japanese guy who threw Marty Reisman and the likes off the pedestal ... straaange world we live in ...

So what !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Many other countries also trying very hard to find ways to beat Chinese , so Chinese does the same to try to win. It is normal. We should just enjoy the game. ,no matter who win or not. We watch the game to enjoy and learn how to play well. If you just want to watch because you want to see Chinese lose, no need to watch, just look at the result later.

I think the key sentence in your comment is: "It is normal" : )


And ... who's playing finals tomorrow btw?

 

[TurboZ]

LGY vs Harimoto tomorrow in the final. Should be exciting when you have both sides want to win it so much.

 

[Loopadoop]

Both Men's and Women's Final have players not predicted to get there, should be exciting !

 

[Atas Newton]

Both Men's and Women's Final have players not predicted to get there, should be exciting !

what's nice about that is that before semifinals, I thought all 4 players had equal chances to clinch the trophy in both men's and women's brackets. Except He Zhuojia maybe, was expecting Ding Ning to win comfortably there.

 

[Atas Newton]

One thing I mentioned, and I could be seeing things, but no one has taken me up to discuss it, is that He Zhuojia seems to be using a faster and spinner pips on her backhand. She is not chopping or chop blocking as much, she is playing a purely offensive rally style. This might be independent of any style change, but I found it interesting. Maybe the timing of the style change is purely coincidental, but maybe it isn't.

I thought your observation was interesting so I found the oldest match of her available on youtube, pre-Ito days. I dunno, man, she plays pretty much the same game that she played today. Serve receive was a little more timid. Spinny backhand is certainly there though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR-hovXLRfU

 

[Atas Newton]

Jun Mizutani gives ITTF content manager a thumbs up for the choice of thumbnail.

 

[zeio]

 

[zeio]

Ishikawa's getting so much love in Japan...

http://sports.sina.com.cn/others/pingpang/2018-12-15/doc-ihmutuec9545406.shtml

……石川在赛后的采访表示：“是应该继续进攻还是防守为主，我很迷茫，打得太急躁了，很想报奥地利赛的一箭之仇，还是输了，非常不甘心”，称这场比赛输得很可惜。
　　这场比赛也是石川本赛季的最后一场国际赛事，今年全年她和中国选手的对战成绩为4胜12负，可以说是处于完全的劣势。对此，她依然保持积极向前看的态度：“如果努力训练，继续提升自己的技术的话，（和中国选手的对战）成绩也会跟着提升。”
　　不过日本网友毒舌功夫全开：“虽然不能说她是完全衰落了，但是日本的年轻选手整体水平都在提高是不争的事实，作为日本一姐的她压力只会更大”，“石川败给中国选手的次数也太多了，无论是世界排名第1到今天的世界排名仅第50%位的，说实话，她的技术提升空间已经不大”，“虽然也想看到她战东京奥运的身姿，但是当下日本新一代选手崛起的势头太猛烈，石川是时候考虑退役了”，“石川对于日本女乒的崛起起的作用值得肯定，但是这么多年她的技术和打法已经被中国队彻底摸透了，今后也难有太大的起色，不如就此退役”，“石川的颜值在世界乒坛的女子选手中值得肯定，但是实力无法扛起日乒抗衡中国队的大旗的重任也是残酷的，现实。”甚至有一些人建议她向师姐福原爱看齐，“在中日乒坛找个好夫君。”

Ishikawa’s interview after the game said: “Is it still important to continue attacking or defending. I am very confused and played too fast. I really want to report the revenge of the Austrian game, or lose, very unwilling.” It was a pity to lose the game.

This game is also the last international event of Ishikawa this season. This year, her match with Chinese players is 4 wins and 12 losses, which can be said to be at a complete disadvantage. In this regard, she still maintains a positive and forward-looking attitude: "If you train hard and continue to upgrade your skills, the results will be improved."

However, the Japanese netizen’s poisonous tongue is fully open: “Although it cannot be said that she is completely declining, it is an indisputable fact that the overall level of young players in Japan is improving. As a Japanese sister, her pressure will only be greater”, “Ishikawa lost There are too many Chinese players, no matter the 50th in the world ranking from the world number one to today, to be honest, her technical improvement space is not big enough," although I also want to see her fight the Tokyo Olympics. In appearance, but the current momentum of the rise of Japan’s new generation of players is too strong, Ishikawa is considering retiring.” “Ishikawa’s role in the rise of Japanese women’s table tennis is worthy of recognition, but her skills and style of play have been used by the Chinese team for so many years. Thoroughly understand, it is difficult to have too much improvement in the future, it is better to retire." "Ishikawa's face value is worthy of recognition in the women's players in the world table tennis, but the strength can not set off the responsibility of the Japanese table tennis team against the Chinese team's banner. It is also cruel, reality." Some people even suggested that she should look at her sister Fuyuan, "Let's find a good husband in the Chinese and Japanese table tennis."