ZJK vs Wang Hao from the side angle

[SFF_lib]

I know this match is old.

The side angle just shows you how low and fast the top spin was with just a 5-ply wood.

5-ply can still outperform many composite blades in a rally. It's a pleasant angle to watch.

 

[WingTT]

I see no video.

 

[hclnnkhg]

Wang Hao retired before 40+. Composite blades are certainly more and more popular nowadays. There are reasons why most professional players use composite blades. Whether amateur players should follow that is another matter.
Also it isn't very convincing coming from you when you are using W968...a composite blade AFAIK.

 

[SFF_lib]

Wang Hao retired before 40+. Composite blades are certainly more and more popular nowadays. There are reasons why most professional players use composite blades. Whether amateur players should follow that is another matter.
Also it isn't very convincing coming from you when you are using W968...a composite blade AFAIK.

I play 5-ply as well, a oversize chopping blade. I play it for fun sometimes. You will be amazed how much speed and spin it can create.

 

[NextLevel]

Many pros gave up on all wood (Simon Gauzy, Vladimir Samsonov) as the plastic ball fully came in. Some people try but they aren't at the very top of the game (Kristian Karlsson, Thiago Monteiro) and just about all of them are at least using 7 ply though Korbel is probably still using his blade. Most people who want the woody feeling use some kind of innerforce design(and there are a lot of these, just about every Butterfly non-Timo/Viscaria driven design is innerforce) where the carbon plies are buried into the blades, making the ball release slower and the blade spinnier but less linear. But some people still like the Primorac Carbon.

I like all wood and played with all wood for a very long time. I don't think there is any magic answer beyond your personal feeling once you have decent technique. The main problem with carbon is that suboptimal hitting feels good and this is a problem. So it is good to learn now to hit and spin properly with wooden blades because the disparity between hitting in and outside of the sweet spot is greater and this problem affects carbon but not as well to fix your technique. But many players learn this with a carbon blade anyways so that isn't everything.

Moreover, the sticky rubbers have made carbon blades much more controllable as have the new ball. It used to be really hard to use carbon blades to consistently push short (that said , Schlager and Primorac were able to do reasonably well). Now once you can push and banana within reason, the rest is practice. But even if you cant push short, wood blades have their pluses and minuses as do carbon blades. Everyone has to choose at some point. The most important thing is coaching and feeling. And if you can handle the feeling of a carbon blade, don't let people tell you not to use it. But if you dont know how to spin or block, beware of what the carbon blade is locking you into. But if you get coaching and train often, use anything. Learning is a process not magic. But everyone has different touch close to the table and that is where wood really shines. And people have different speed requirements off the table and that is where Carbon really shines.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Many pros gave up on all wood (Simon Gauzy, Vladimir Samsonov) as the plastic ball fully came in. Some people try but they aren't at the very top of the game (Kristian Karlsson, Thiago Monteiro) and just about all of them are at least using 7 ply though Korbel is probably still using his blade. Most people who want the woody feeling use some kind of innerforce design(and there are a lot of these, just about every Butterfly non-Timo/Viscaria driven design is innerforce) where the carbon plies are buried into the blades, making the ball release slower and the blade spinnier but less linear. But some people still like the Primorac Carbon.

I like all wood and played with all wood for a very long time. I don't think there is any magic answer beyond your personal feeling once you have decent technique. The main problem with carbon is that suboptimal hitting feels good and this is a problem. So it is good to learn now to hit and spin properly with wooden blades because the disparity between hitting in and outside of the sweet spot is greater and this problem affects carbon but not as well to fix your technique. But many players learn this with a carbon blade anyways so that isn't everything.

Moreover, the sticky rubbers have made carbon blades much more controllable as have the new ball. It used to be really hard to use carbon blades to consistently push short (that said , Schlager and Primorac were able to do reasonably well). Now once you can push and banana within reason, the rest is practice. But even if you cant push short, wood blades have their pluses and minuses as do carbon blades. Everyone has to choose at some point. The most important thing is coaching and feeling. And if you can handle the feeling of a carbon blade, don't let people tell you not to use it. But if you dont know how to spin or block, beware of what the carbon blade is locking you into. But if you get coaching and train often, use anything. Learning is a process not magic. But everyone has different touch close to the table and that is where wood really shines. And people have different speed requirements off the table and that is where Carbon really shines.

This post. Hit the like button guys. That covers all the bases pretty thoroughly and gives a balanced perspective.

 

[dingyibvs]

Many pros gave up on all wood (Simon Gauzy, Vladimir Samsonov) as the plastic ball fully came in. Some people try but they aren't at the very top of the game (Kristian Karlsson, Thiago Monteiro) and just about all of them are at least using 7 ply though Korbel is probably still using his blade. Most people who want the woody feeling use some kind of innerforce design(and there are a lot of these, just about every Butterfly non-Timo/Viscaria driven design is innerforce) where the carbon plies are buried into the blades, making the ball release slower and the blade spinnier but less linear. But some people still like the Primorac Carbon.

I like all wood and played with all wood for a very long time. I don't think there is any magic answer beyond your personal feeling once you have decent technique. The main problem with carbon is that suboptimal hitting feels good and this is a problem. So it is good to learn now to hit and spin properly with wooden blades because the disparity between hitting in and outside of the sweet spot is greater and this problem affects carbon but not as well to fix your technique. But many players learn this with a carbon blade anyways so that isn't everything.

Moreover, the sticky rubbers have made carbon blades much more controllable as have the new ball. It used to be really hard to use carbon blades to consistently push short (that said , Schlager and Primorac were able to do reasonably well). Now once you can push and banana within reason, the rest is practice. But even if you cant push short, wood blades have their pluses and minuses as do carbon blades. Everyone has to choose at some point. The most important thing is coaching and feeling. And if you can handle the feeling of a carbon blade, don't let people tell you not to use it. But if you dont know how to spin or block, beware of what the carbon blade is locking you into. But if you get coaching and train often, use anything. Learning is a process not magic. But everyone has different touch close to the table and that is where wood really shines. And people have different speed requirements off the table and that is where Carbon really shines.

That's what I like about the 968, it let's you know when you're not hitting the sweet spot, but still generates a quality shot. The regular HL5 and the YSE also have great feedback, but your shot sucks when it's not in the sweet spot. With the 968 I can still train and strive to hit the sweet spot with every shot while my inability to do so does not degrade my game too much.

 

[NextLevel]

That's what I like about the 968, it let's you know when you're not hitting the sweet spot, but still generates a quality shot. The regular HL5 and the YSE also have great feedback, but your shot sucks when it's not in the sweet spot. With the 968 I can still train and strive to hit the sweet spot with every shot while my inability to do so does not degrade my game too much.

That's true, but it is also a rationalization of a choice. Unless you conducted some kind of experiment, it is hard to be clear on the difference between what you play best with and what you enjoy playing with. One could argue that most of my best results have come using slower equipment for example. But I can clearly state that I don't always enjoy playing with slower equipment. To me, advanced players like you (and usually this is player over USATT 1600) have put in enough time playing that they can use just about anything they want. If someone rated lower was learning to play and loop, I might give them something slower, but I am no longer on big on it as I used to be.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

NL is correct that bigger ball has shifted the trend for PROS to composite blades.

But these are Pros.
Indeed both has it pros and cons, but wood is still way more than good enough to get the job done for amateur/social players. (wood doesn't mean slow, you get a lot of fast woods)

Whether it is "not enjoying" as per NL's example (fast is fun, no doubt), or maybe struggling to "admit" one is not good enough (there is tons of people I know who all claim they are better than what they are to be), or those that are fan boys/girls, who want to use what they idol uses, it all doesn't matter.

But for the ones chasing the perfect balance between speed/spin/control, and without having the proper training and foundation to back it with, using composite blades with Max, latest generation tensor rubbers, is really - not able to use the equipment to its advantages.
I always say, the equipment is hitting the ball, not you.

Only people from a certain level up will understand, its not about speed. It is more about spin and to control such speed and spin.

Give you guys an example, I see all this hype on the Yinhe Jupiter 3 rubber for a while. I have 8 of them as samples.
Its fast, no doubt. But spin quality is low. I find the same thing as Loki rubbers which is also hyped about.

How one can rate it better than H3, I don't know. Maybe if you only measuring from speed, sure. But quality of my top spins has dropped. And not just me, a mate of mine (who once was invited to be Chuang's practice partner and also a couple of girls in the world top 100, so he sure knows how to hit the ball way better than me). His words was, very soft, very bouncy and that is about it.

All due respect to my friends at Yinhe and Loki, many big brands have struggled to get near H3's balance of spin and speed, so even if Y and L can't get there, it is perfectly normal.

This is why, I do struggle reading equipment reviews or even giving reviews. Reviews per "level" is all different. So which one do you follow? Which one is correct? If the foundation and understanding on "spin" is not there, then it is actually too difficult to talk equipment, hence I enjoy more about the technique part of the game, than the equipment.

No matter what you use, master it and become better with it.
If it is over or under, then adjust. I do hope the understanding of balance will occur sooner, than later.

 

[hclnnkhg]

NL is correct that bigger ball has shifted the trend for PROS to composite blades.

But these are Pros.
Indeed both has it pros and cons, but wood is still way more than good enough to get the job done for amateur/social players. (wood doesn't mean slow, you get a lot of fast woods)

Whether it is "not enjoying" as per NL's example (fast is fun, no doubt), or maybe struggling to "admit" one is not good enough (there is tons of people I know who all claim they are better than what they are to be), or those that are fan boys/girls, who want to use what they idol uses, it all doesn't matter.

But for the ones chasing the perfect balance between speed/spin/control, and without having the proper training and foundation to back it with, using composite blades with Max, latest generation tensor rubbers, is really - not able to use the equipment to its advantages.
I always say, the equipment is hitting the ball, not you.

Only people from a certain level up will understand, its not about speed. It is more about spin and to control such speed and spin.

Give you guys an example, I see all this hype on the Yinhe Jupiter 3 rubber for a while. I have 8 of them as samples.
Its fast, no doubt. But spin quality is low. I find the same thing as Loki rubbers which is also hyped about.

How one can rate it better than H3, I don't know. Maybe if you only measuring from speed, sure. But quality of my top spins has dropped. And not just me, a mate of mine (who once was invited to be Chuang's practice partner and also a couple of girls in the world top 100, so he sure knows how to hit the ball way better than me). His words was, very soft, very bouncy and that is about it.

All due respect to my friends at Yinhe and Loki, many big brands have struggled to get near H3's balance of spin and speed, so even if Y and L can't get there, it is perfectly normal.

This is why, I do struggle reading equipment reviews or even giving reviews. Reviews per "level" is all different. So which one do you follow? Which one is correct? If the foundation and understanding on "spin" is not there, then it is actually too difficult to talk equipment, hence I enjoy more about the technique part of the game, than the equipment.

No matter what you use, master it and become better with it.
If it is over or under, then adjust. I do hope the understanding of balance will occur sooner, than later.

Funny you mention H3, for me it's a rubber that many people shouldn't use yet or it isn't the best fit for them but they useit because the Chinese National Team uses it, like composite blades.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Funny you mention H3, for me it's a rubber that many people shouldn't use yet or it isn't the best fit for them but they useit because the Chinese National Team uses it, like composite blades.

Precisely
Then a bouncier version is the solution?

 

[hclnnkhg]

Precisely
Then a bouncier version is the solution?

Depends on why H3 isn't suitable. Sometimes it's because H3 is too sensitive to spin, then a less spinny (usually less sensitive to spin) rubber would be better. Sometimes it's because H3 is too hard so you need a (too) big swing to get power out of it, then actually a bouncier rubber with more easily accessible power is better.

 

[dingyibvs]

That's true, but it is also a rationalization of a choice. Unless you conducted some kind of experiment, it is hard to be clear on the difference between what you play best with and what you enjoy playing with. One could argue that most of my best results have come using slower equipment for example. But I can clearly state that I don't always enjoy playing with slower equipment. To me, advanced players like you (and usually this is player over USATT 1600) have put in enough time playing that they can use just about anything they want. If someone rated lower was learning to play and loop, I might give them something slower, but I am no longer on big on it as I used to be.

Oh yeah, that's for sure. I'm clear on my goal, enjoyment first, always. I enjoy looping hard and fast, and I enjoy improving my style of game. It's very possible, even quite likely that I can play at a higher level with a slower style or equipment, but reaching the highest level of play is not my goal.

 

[thomas.pong]

That's true, but it is also a rationalization of a choice. Unless you conducted some kind of experiment, it is hard to be clear on the difference between what you play best with and what you enjoy playing with. One could argue that most of my best results have come using slower equipment for example. But I can clearly state that I don't always enjoy playing with slower equipment. To me, advanced players like you (and usually this is player over USATT 1600) have put in enough time playing that they can use just about anything they want. If someone rated lower was learning to play and loop, I might give them something slower, but I am no longer on big on it as I used to be.

I totally agree and I always tried to bridge the gap between what equipment is good for me and my progress (#1 in my book) and which is fun to play with.

I've finally found the blade that is #1 in both categories in the W968.

I cannot play with a Viscaria or most carbon outers, or a 7-ply all-wood period, or a 5-ply or inner carbon that are not responsive enough.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

That's what I like about the 968, it let's you know when you're not hitting the sweet spot, but still generates a quality shot. The regular HL5 and the YSE also have great feedback, but your shot sucks when it's not in the sweet spot. With the 968 I can still train and strive to hit the sweet spot with every shot while my inability to do so does not degrade my game too much.

It is also hard to tell, a blade that punished not hitting the sweetspot so, the shot did not feel good, but you also got a lower quality shot, sometimes that can get you to improve the precision and accuracy of your contact faster. If it feels bad but you don't perceive the degree to which your contact is impacting your shot quality, it is possible to keep making that kind of contact and not make the changes that will cause you to improve as fast.

Not always the case. And if you are aware of it, you can develop the precision regardless of which blade. But, training for a few months with one of those blades that causes you to need to be more precise may get you to improve faster.

But, I agree with NextLevel, these days, with the bigger plastic ball, using a slower blade with more feeling is less of an issue. The bigger plastic ball is slower, it is harder to generate spin, and they feel way heavier on impact so you can feel the ball more with any blade than the old celluloid balls. Many factors for why it is less important these days to use all wood.

I am happy with the equipment I use. But I was always fine using an ALC and/or an ALC inner blade as well.

 

[brokenball]

I have many paddles. Only two, my TBS and TB ALC, are composite. I don't see where it make much difference since I play close to the table and all my paddles are more than fast enough. Unless you really need the speed, just about any paddle will do. I have only played with a handful of paddles that I didn't like.
When the ball hits the paddle, the paddle vibrates. That is what you feel long after the ball is gone. The feel is a preference. Obviously we can tell by the vibration if we hit the ball right but that is long after the ball is one. The paddle will vibrate at a certain frequency, amplitude, and damping. I have NEVER seen the paddle oscillate except for my Toxic 5. I have a high speed camera. The amplitude if the vibrations you feel are very small and it is doubtful they have any effect on the ball. However, I know that if an accelerometer is placed on the back of a blade, it will detect the impact even though the amplitude is small.

Now here is the what no one mentions. Does the frequency of the paddle affect the COR? Before answering, think about trampolines and spring boards.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Depends on why H3 isn't suitable. Sometimes it's because H3 is too sensitive to spin, then a less spinny (usually less sensitive to spin) rubber would be better. Sometimes it's because H3 is too hard so you need a (too) big swing to get power out of it, then actually a bouncier rubber with more easily accessible power is better.

Lets hope the above 2 you stated is indeed the solution for many.
Composite blade with a hybrid, bouncier rubber with little spin is a solution, then the technique must be very good too. Since in my books, the faster setup, that has no arc or spin is still not balanced enough.

Some times, people use H3 and composite as you say, because some others are using it (ie, someone who had that BH flick training for 10000 hits already, 5 years ago), and when it doesn't work, they start finding the closest to it that can work for them
But, the problem is still not in the equipment, but the person using it.

Its all good to have fun and experiments trying them. Its great the shop businesses and such. But is it great for knowledge sharing, remains a question mark.

One of the former Taiwan mens head coach would tell juniors to stop hitting fast.
slow down the speed, add more grip, add more brush, add more spin to your stroke.
he will say, i'm not wanting you to hit a killer ever shot and its gone within 5 shots, I want you to create the arc, a very spinny one, 50 times in a row.

 

[NextLevel]

NL is correct that bigger ball has shifted the trend for PROS to composite blades.

But these are Pros.
Indeed both has it pros and cons, but wood is still way more than good enough to get the job done for amateur/social players. (wood doesn't mean slow, you get a lot of fast woods)

Whether it is "not enjoying" as per NL's example (fast is fun, no doubt), or maybe struggling to "admit" one is not good enough (there is tons of people I know who all claim they are better than what they are to be), or those that are fan boys/girls, who want to use what they idol uses, it all doesn't matter.

But for the ones chasing the perfect balance between speed/spin/control, and without having the proper training and foundation to back it with, using composite blades with Max, latest generation tensor rubbers, is really - not able to use the equipment to its advantages.
I always say, the equipment is hitting the ball, not you.

Only people from a certain level up will understand, its not about speed. It is more about spin and to control such speed and spin.

Give you guys an example, I see all this hype on the Yinhe Jupiter 3 rubber for a while. I have 8 of them as samples.
Its fast, no doubt. But spin quality is low. I find the same thing as Loki rubbers which is also hyped about.

How one can rate it better than H3, I don't know. Maybe if you only measuring from speed, sure. But quality of my top spins has dropped. And not just me, a mate of mine (who once was invited to be Chuang's practice partner and also a couple of girls in the world top 100, so he sure knows how to hit the ball way better than me). His words was, very soft, very bouncy and that is about it.

All due respect to my friends at Yinhe and Loki, many big brands have struggled to get near H3's balance of spin and speed, so even if Y and L can't get there, it is perfectly normal.

This is why, I do struggle reading equipment reviews or even giving reviews. Reviews per "level" is all different. So which one do you follow? Which one is correct? If the foundation and understanding on "spin" is not there, then it is actually too difficult to talk equipment, hence I enjoy more about the technique part of the game, than the equipment.

No matter what you use, master it and become better with it.
If it is over or under, then adjust. I do hope the understanding of balance will occur sooner, than later.

Amateur and pro is a very wide and deceptive designation.

Wood can be enough. But composite technology has major advantages as well - in fact, while I keep on saying "carbon blades" as a catch all for what are really "composite blades", there is a lot of interesting stuff that composites do to make carbon feel more flexible even when the blades are stiff and thin. In fact, other than Primorac Carbon, most Butterfly blades in circulation are ALC or ZLC, not C.

Every experienced player knows that most of their level is about their training, not the equipment. But at every level, the things that help pros win also help amateurs win - speed is good for the amateur, just as it is for the pro. Tradeoffs between consistency and power exist at all levels, not just the pro level.

There used to be a time when coaches thought that learners should not use speed-glue type rubbers. Now everyone accepts it is best to start using and getting used to these rubbers as early as possible so that your technique doesn't change too much. I suspect this is true for composites as well - spin mentality just has to be enforced by the coach.

 

[OldUser]

This post. Hit the like button guys. That covers all the bases pretty thoroughly and gives a balanced perspective.

No, and I'll tell you why.

Simon Gauzy has had his best time with an all wood Cornilleau Blade when he's beaten Xu Xin at the 2019 WTTC, he was WR n°8 the year before.

He uses a carbon blade since more than a year now, one of the early syntheliac VCI OFF they madefor him, and he's never got worse than this year, loosing to guys ranked over the WR 80 positions (Adrien Rassenfosse) or even the top 100. As a consequence he has dropped a lot in the rankings since he's beaten Hugo Calderano in the quarter of WTT Doha contender in 2021. Makes 2 years. He's not been able to beat Dima when he was weak still after coming back from his ankle injury. No good results in mixed double with Prithika Pavade neither.

So I strongly disagree with that statement from a person who does not seem to follow the WTT tour that well.

EDIT: my take on switching from all wood to carbon is it has to be done very early so that you can have time to adapt. If you're a young pro like the Lebrun Bros or Flavien Coton, it makes sense, but when you're over 25 years old in the top 20, it's risky. Gauzy has always used all wood blades in his youth, like Lebesson. Lebessson has choosen to keep an all wood blade, he's 35 years old, and does not drop that much in the rankings, and he's never been as high as Gauzy, N°20 at best after winning the euro single championship in 2016. He's now dropped to 54 of course, but he's more involved in the mixed doubles with Jia Nan Yuan, with excellent results this past year. He's even moved from the Bundesliga to come back in France. gauzy has dropped from 8 to 32 in 4 years, and he's younger, didn't have to face better ranked players in the first rounds than Manu Lebesson had to do.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

No, and I'll tell you why.

Simon Gauzy has had his best time with an all wood Cornilleau Blade when he's beaten Xu Xin at the 2019 WTTC, he was WR n°8 the year before.

He uses a carbon blade since more than a year now, one of the early syntheliac VCI OFF they madefor him, and he's never got worse than this year, loosing to guys ranked over the WR 80 positions (Adrien Rassenfosse) or even the top 100. As a consequence he has dropped a lot in the rankings since he's beaten Hugo Calderano in the quarter of WTT Doha contender in 2021. Makes 2 years. He's not been able to beat Dima when he was weak still after coming back from his ankle injury. No good results in mixed double with Prithika Pavade neither.

So I strongly disagree with that statement from a person who does not seem to follow the WTT tour that well.

EDIT: my take on switching from all wood to carbon is it has to be done very early so that you can have time to adapt. If you're a young pro like the Lebrun Bros or Flavien Coton, it makes sense, but when you're over 25 years old in the top 20, it's risky. Gauzy has always used all wood blades in his youth, like Lebesson. Lebessson has choosen to keep an all wood blade, he's 35 years old, and does not drop that much in the rankings, and he's never been as high as Gauzy, N°20 at best after winning the euro single championship in 2016. He's now dropped to 54 of course, but he's more involved in the mixed doubles with Jia Nan Yuan, with excellent results this past year. He's even moved from the Bundesliga to come back in France. gauzy has dropped from 8 to 32 in 4 years, and he's younger, didn't have to face better ranked players in the first rounds than Manu Lebesson had to do.

In reading your post, which seems to only be about Guazy's results, and in reading NL's post which outlines positives and negatives for either wood or composite and clearly states:

I don't think there is any magic answer beyond your personal feeling once you have decent technique.

So, I am not sure how you draw your conclusions based on one player's results. Do we actually even have clear data on why Guazy has been performing differently? And even if we did, I think NL covered the issue with the quote above.

In 2005 one player in the top 10 used a composite blade. Everyone else was using all wood. Today, is there anyone in the top 10 using all wood?

I like all wood. I use all wood. That is just what my heart says. Some people do adapt to equipment changes faster than others. So, one person may not be able to change from all wood to composite while another would make that change fairly easily.

I do think a lot of players don't know how to go with their personal feeling on equipment or do not trust their personal feeling. But many more players these days do seem to be using composite blades. Some of that is almost definitely people using stuff that isn't ideal for their needs. But there is a good amount of it that is fine with how different the 40+ poly ball is than the old celluloid balls used to be.