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doraemon
12-04-2016, 08:55 PM
Hello,

I know that some (understatement) professional players, eg. Zhang Jike do not use blades named after them. I know that previously when Marcos Freitas was with Tibhar, he did not use Tibhar equipment and instead used his Michael Maze OFF. In the European Championships he still used his Michael Maze. But with Butterfly releasing the Marcos Freitas ALC, has Freitas made the move to his own signature blade? Or, is he still using the old Michael Maze? And if so, why? From the description, it sounds like it is a re-badged version of the Michael Maze:

May 2016 The veneer composition of FREITAS ALC is, as with his popular predecessor Michael Maze, the proven Arylate carbon synthetic fiber used which gives the wood its characteristic "ALC-Touch"...

But does Marcos Freitas ACTUALLY use it? In the Nittaku Pongcast when he did the ball bounce I saw it but for these promotional things players regularly change their equipment to their sponsor's anyway- like in Dimitrij Ovtcharov's interview there was a scene with him gluing on a Bluefire on his Ovtcharov Senso V1, where he obviously uses Tenergy (or Hurricane... :P )

Garrison
12-04-2016, 10:08 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSXZaskeoZg There are some close ups but it's hard to see much from the resolution. However if he was using the ALC the handle should be darker I guess.

TTHopeful
12-05-2016, 05:20 AM
Because Michael Maze has retired it looks like Freitas will be endorsed by the same range of blade under his name.

rokphish
12-05-2016, 07:21 AM
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http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161205/4f989705f0dd73d89cbede3d0ad3a29d.jpg

Just do it already!
Hit that buy button!

NextLevel
12-05-2016, 08:08 AM
Hello,

I know that some (understatement) professional players, eg. Zhang Jike do not use blades named after them. I know that previously when Marcos Freitas was with Tibhar, he did not use Tibhar equipment and instead used his Michael Maze OFF. In the European Championships he still used his Michael Maze. But with Butterfly releasing the Marcos Freitas ALC, has Freitas made the move to his own signature blade? Or, is he still using the old Michael Maze? And if so, why? From the description, it sounds like it is a re-badged version of the Michael Maze:

May 2016 The veneer composition of FREITAS ALC is, as with his popular predecessor Michael Maze, the proven Arylate carbon synthetic fiber used which gives the wood its characteristic "ALC-Touch"...

But does Marcos Freitas ACTUALLY use it? In the Nittaku Pongcast when he did the ball bounce I saw it but for these promotional things players regularly change their equipment to their sponsor's anyway- like in Dimitrij Ovtcharov's interview there was a scene with him gluing on a Bluefire on his Ovtcharov Senso V1, where he obviously uses Tenergy (or Hurricane... :P )
If you have used a blade for any significant period of time, you will know that the longer you use it, the more it becomes like a part of your body. He is not going to change his blade unless he is forced to do so. As long as the Maze and the Freitas ALC are similar, I don't see what the harm is. Some pros will just change their handle to accommodate questions like yours, but Freitas is probably too hardcore to bother with such nonsense.

doraemon
12-05-2016, 08:23 AM
If you have used a blade for any significant period of time, you will know that the longer you use it, the more it becomes like a part of your body. He is not going to change his blade unless he is forced to do so. As long as the Maze and the Freitas ALC are similar, I don't see what the harm is. Some pros will just change their handle to accommodate questions like yours, but Freitas is probably too hardcore to bother with such nonsense.

Ok. I didn't mean insult or upset anyone - it was just a curiosity. I just thought that if a blade is named after you, designed for you, it would be a shame to not use it.

NextLevel
12-05-2016, 08:30 AM
Ok. I didn't mean insult or upset anyone - it was just a curiosity. I just thought that if a blade is named after you, designed for you, it would be a shame to not use it.
I am fairly sure, even though I have no hard evidence, that part of the reason he left Tibhar is that Tibhar forces you to use Tibhar equipment. He probably didn't want to switch to MX-P.

doraemon
12-05-2016, 08:36 AM
I am fairly sure, even though I have no hard evidence, that part of the reason he left Tibhar is that Tibhar forces you to use Tibhar equipment. He probably didn't want to switch to MX-P.

It is kind of sad how everyone uses, or thinks they have to use Butterfly, even the pros like Marcos,at and how apparently that Tenergy is so superior that even a professional MUST use Tenergy, or Michael Maze, or Timo Boll ALC. I personally think that it is disrespectful that a company will go through the time, and effort, to design, market and produce a signature blade for a player, yet they do not even use it.

However, I do also see that a player can get attached to a particular blade- good memories, particular playing qualities difficult to replicate due to the irregularity of wood come to mind

Even then, it is still a betrayal of trust I think, and a lack of "moral fibre" on the part of the guilty athletes. Sponsors pay the players substantial sums of money, I ASSUME, only for the players to practically snub them because they think something else is better, or even worse, fake it.

NOTE: This is just opinion...

NextLevel
12-05-2016, 08:41 AM
It is kind of sad how everyone uses, or thinks they have to use Butterfly, even the pros like Marcos,at and how apparently that Tenergy is so superior that even a professional MUST use Tenergy, or Michael Maze, or Timo Boll ALC. I personally think that it is disrespectful that a company will go through the time, and effort, to design, market and produce a signature blade for a player, yet they do not even use it.

However, I do also see that a player can get attached to a particular blade- good memories, particular playing qualities difficult to replicate due to the irregularity of wood come to mind

NOTE: This is just opinion...

I'm sure if you see that a player can have good memories with a blade, you can also see that they can have good memories with a rubber or just believe that a rubber suits their style better than another rubber. It's not necessary to consider it Butterfly brainwashing.

But I do agree that if the time was taken to design a blade to suit the player's requirements, then the player should use it. This is not always the case unless you think that every blade that has a player's name when through an arduous design process.

doraemon
12-05-2016, 08:48 AM
I'm sure if you see that a player can have good memories with a blade, you can also see that they can have good memories with a rubber or just believe that a rubber suits their style better than another rubber. It's not necessary to consider it Butterfly brainwashing.

But I do agree that if the time was taken to design a blade to suit the player's requirements, then the player should use it. This is not always the case unless you think that every blade that has a player's name when through an arduous design process.

I think that, to a degree, it is a mental thing. As seen with Vladimir Samsonov (Tibhar MX-P/MX-S) and Jakub Dyjas (Donic Bluefire) it IS possible to play at a top level without Tenergy. It is just that they are unwilling to try, I guess, or they cannot get the idea that their equipment is inferior to others, where I do not think it is, it is just different. They just don't want to try.

On the other hand, I do understand that they may be used to Tenergy after all their time playing though.

NextLevel
12-05-2016, 09:01 AM
I think that, to a degree, it is a mental thing. As seen with Vladimir Samsonov (Tibhar MX-P/MX-S) and Jakub Dyjas (Donic Bluefire) it IS possible to play at a top level without Tenergy. It is just that they are unwilling to try, I guess, or they cannot get the idea that their equipment is inferior to others, where I do not think it is, it is just different. They just don't want to try.

On the other hand, I do understand that they may be used to Tenergy after all their time playing though.

Maybe the part you need to close the gap is that these guys are making their money doing this and can be extremely conservative in order to avoid hurting their daily performance?

It has always been possible to play at the top level without Tenergy especially if you want to boost. Samsonov never did and credit to him for going through years of using inferior equipment. The issues are more complicated than you realize unless you either play close to that level or understand some of the details of rubber research. After reading some of the posts by the owner of Nexy on how he worked at designing Nexy Karis, I appreciated better why Tenergy was so popular and why some pros will not leave it. Just because pros are using a rubber doesn't mean that it is good equipment. IT just mean that ultimately, a lot of stuff can be individual preference or written into your contract.

What a pro wants is a rubber that performs according to his intuitions, especially when blocking and spinning very powerful shots. Feeling the subtle differences in how a rubber affects your block is something top level players can see and you may think (like me) that the rubbers play mostly the same.

doraemon
12-05-2016, 09:05 AM
Maybe the part you need to close the gap is that these guys are making their money doing this and can be extremely conservative in order to avoid hurting their daily performance?

It has always been possible to play at the top level without Tenergy especially if you want to boost. Samsonov never did and credit to him for going through years of using inferior equipment. The issues are more complicated than you realize unless you either play close to that level or understand some of the details of rubber research. After reading some of the posts by the owner of Nexy on how he worked at designing Nexy Karis, I appreciated better why Tenergy was so popular and why some pros will not leave it. Just because pros are using a rubber doesn't mean that it is good equipment. IT just mean that ultimately, a lot of stuff can be individual preference or written into your contract.

What a pro wants is a rubber that performs according to his intuitions, especially when blocking and spinning very powerful shots. Feeling the subtle differences in how a rubber affects your block is something top level players can see and you may think (like me) that the rubbers play mostly the same.

I do agree that I m not at that level, and I guess all we can hope for is an honest discussion with the player's face to face :)

BTW, who is the owner of Nexy, can you send me the link to the mentioned threads?

Thanks

NextLevel
12-05-2016, 09:07 AM
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35293&PID=904078&title=nexy-designers-diary#904078

yuri.saldon
12-05-2016, 11:23 AM
I think that, to a degree, it is a mental thing. As seen with Vladimir Samsonov (Tibhar MX-P/MX-S) and Jakub Dyjas (Donic Bluefire) it IS possible to play at a top level without Tenergy. It is just that they are unwilling to try, I guess, or they cannot get the idea that their equipment is inferior to others, where I do not think it is, it is just different. They just don't want to try.

On the other hand, I do understand that they may be used to Tenergy after all their time playing though.
You can play with another rubber, but everyone who uses tenergy 05 know how different it is to any rubber in the market. I don't like the tenergy feel, MX-P suits me a lot better but I understand why so many pro's use tenergy.
PS: tenergy 05 have the most unique feeling but all the spring sponge feel different to others rubbers

Sent from my 2014819 using Tapatalk

ajtatosmano2
12-05-2016, 12:44 PM
I'm sure that Freitas tried the MX-P and he decided to stay with T05 because it suits him better and not because he thought 'nothing can be better than Tenergy'.

Baal
12-05-2016, 02:10 PM
I'm sure if you see that a player can have good memories with a blade, you can also see that they can have good memories with a rubber or just believe that a rubber suits their style better than another rubber. It's not necessary to consider it Butterfly brainwashing.

But I do agree that if the time was taken to design a blade to suit the player's requirements, then the player should use it. This is not always the case unless you think that every blade that has a player's name when through an arduous design process.

And sometimes it is rather inexplicable. It is odd that ZJK does not want to use even a ZJK-ALC. Pretty much all they need to do is dye the wood on the handle a gray color.

UpSideDownCarl
12-05-2016, 04:27 PM
So a lot of good info. NextLevel's explanation of how stuff a mid level player may not feel is something a pro level player may really feel, lines up with how Wang Chen explained the difference between Commercial, Provincial and National H3. She said a pro would feel the difference and it is subtle. But it should not matter to a mid level amateur.

But I am looking at something else here. So, hopefully this information is useful to you.

I see a big interest in table tennis equipment. In one thread I made a joke about EJ virus and the goon squad. Here I will talk about equipment.

The first thing to understand is, deep inquiry to try and understand equipment is valuable if it is because you are the type of person who likes to know and wants to understand. But if it is about thinking equipment is more important than it is, this can be an expensive route to follow. And it will likely not help your technique improve.

It is worth knowing that blades that are in the same class are, well...in the same class.

What does this mean?

Blades that have the plies:

Limba-Limba-Ayous-Limba-Limba

Will have more in common than they will have differences.

ZJK ALC, TB Spirit, TB ALC, Viscaria and a few other blades are almost identical aside from the handle. Other companies have tried to create the same effect. The only blade that has done that successfully so far seems to be the True Carbon.

When you have a blade and rubber setup that works for you, sticking with it will be better for your developing technique and improving than searching out new equipment.

Developing technique in this sport is more important than what equipment you use. One way that this is often expressed is: "It is not the racket it is the person with the racket in his hand."

I know this info is simple and you really already get this stuff.

More on subject to this thread is that, for whatever reason, the pros don't always use what they appear to use. Fan Zhendong uses a Viscaria with a Stiga Infinity handle. ZJK seems to use a Viscaria but rumor has it that it is a custom blade with a Viscaria handle. Whether this is true or not doesn't really matter to me. But what is for sure is that he does not use any of the blades with his name on them.

I could go on and on because there are so many pros who pretend to use one thing but really use something else. Why? I am not really sure. Sponsorship cobtracts? Probably for someone like FZD or Wang Liqin or Dimitri Ovtcharov. Probably not for ZJK since he absolutely does not hide that he doesn't use any of the blades with his name.

One thing I can tell you is, whatever racket you are using is probably okay. Is it optimal for your development? I am not sure because I don't know your level or what you are using. But most offensive players who are not yet at the elite amateur or semi-pro level would probably be best served by using a 5 ply, all wood blade that has decent flex and good feeling with any kind of modern offensive rubber.

Often people talk about how the pros get special rackets and rubbers. I am not 100% sure that is always exactly true. But there is some truth in it. And the bigger issue is that most top pros get dozens of blades to try and reject dozens blades before the choose 3-4 for themselves.

One time I got to try a blade that had been specifically made for Xu Xin and had been rejected. Not sure what he didn't like about it. But it still felt awesome.

That chance to try and choose is really the bigger issue for the pros. Once they have selected a main blade and a few backups, they probably use those for quite a while before changing.

But the more important thing is, this kind of inquiry can be fun. But don't let it interfere with the fact that working on technique is much more valuable than worrying about equipment.

Someone like NextLevel is an expert at finding different setups that enhance different aspects of his game. But NextLevel has a physical handicap that makes what he chooses slightly more important than it is for most people. Because he needs a setup that gets the job done while allowing him to keep his joints protected. Which is also part of why he knows so much about equipment and why his opinion should be valued and respected.

But for most people, especially young, developing players, whatever equipment you have and use, your technique will adjust to your equipment and that equipment will work for you.

So don't worry too much about this stuff or what the pros use and why. Inquire. Enjoy learning. But don't think it is too important.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

SlipSlopSlappy
12-05-2016, 05:19 PM
But most offensive players who are not yet at the elite amateur or semi-pro level would probably be best served by using a 5 ply, all wood blade that has decent flex and good feeling with any kind of modern offensive rubber.

But for most people, especially young, developing players, whatever equipment you have and use, your technique will adjust to your equipment and that equipment will work for you.




That's got to be 1 of my favourite all time posts. I need to print it off so I can read it whenever my finger is hovering over the "buy it now" button for the upteenth rubber that promises both more speed and more control.

kadamestriaw
12-05-2016, 07:43 PM
Some players are more selective with their equipment.
Ma long proved none of this matters, he's used 5ply, 7ply, carbon outside, carbon inside and he beats them all.

As for marcos, based on the podcast with Dan, he's probably not interested in changing his blade or in blades at all.
The guy was playing Bundesliga and went to a tt shop to buy his mazes lol, that's what any of us would do.

Garrison
12-05-2016, 07:52 PM
Got my old setup when I was getting back into training but I think I reached it's limit. Now I upgraded to the True Carbon with a bit harder rubbers and I already see an improvement in the quality of my balls.

Certainly you shouldn't buy a setup just because of being a fanboy, but I wouldn't underrate equipments importance (at least if you play for a long time and your technique is pretty much developed). It is always important to know your weakness and if there is equipment that can help with it then why not?

My biggest weakness was my forehand flip, I could play slow spinny topspins but lacked the power to attack over the table so I pushed medium high balls which made it easy for my opponent to attack, the mx-p helps me a lot with that (played Airoc S before with an OFF- blade)

doraemon
12-05-2016, 08:31 PM
And sometimes it is rather inexplicable. It is odd that ZJK does not want to use even a ZJK-ALC. Pretty much all they need to do is dye the wood on the handle a gray color.
really? I read that it is slightly softer with more dwell. But maybe this is just differences in the wood.

Baal
12-05-2016, 08:37 PM
No systematic difference. I have owned several of each. Small sample size causes people to conclude all sorts of things, more so about blades that are more or less the same thing.. People expect that there to be differences. They tend to confirm that bias. Not all of the Viscarias i have had are the same. But they are all the same .model.

doraemon
12-05-2016, 09:41 PM
So, I have finally read the Nexy Diary thingy ma jiggy.

Please correct me if I am wrong, as it is a lot of information to process- The key factor if the Tenergy's success is the uniform distribution of pores in the sponge, which causes the sponge material to stretch out in a PHYSICAL manner, whereas ESN (Donic, Andro) use some chemical to stretch it out in a CHEMICAL manner.

What I do not understand is how this means that Tenergy is superior to ESN. Nexy mentions that ESN regularly "bottoms out", as he (or she?) describes it, which along with the lack of harmony between the tackiness of the top sheet and the springiness of the sponge leads to an inferior rubber.

So does that mean that Tenergy is better simply because of a great combination between a technologically superior sponge and a topsheet which perfectly complements the super sponge?

And to answer Carl's question about whether I think that equipment is more important than technique. Of course, I understand that technique is more 'important to develop than purchasing the best equipment. But the world of all the different types and technologies of table tennis rubbers and blades is fascinating, and I do have a desire to know more about them. And just to reassure you, I have only ever used 2 real blades in my whole table tennis career, so I am not really an equipment junkie (or at least I do not think so), it is just I have an interest in the equipment.

NextLevel
12-05-2016, 09:56 PM
So, I have finally read the Nexy Diary thingy ma jiggy.

Please correct me if I am wrong, as it is a lot of information to process- The key factor if the Tenergy's success is the uniform distribution of pores in the sponge, which causes the sponge material to stretch out in a PHYSICAL manner, whereas ESN (Donic, Andro) use some chemical to stretch it out in a CHEMICAL manner.

What I do not understand is how this means that Tenergy is superior to ESN. Nexy mentions that ESN regularly "bottoms out", as he (or she?) describes it, which along with the lack of harmony between the tackiness of the top sheet and the springiness of the sponge leads to an inferior rubber.

So does that mean that Tenergy is better simply because of a great combination between a technologically superior sponge and a topsheet which perfectly complements the super sponge?

And to answer Carl's question about whether I think that equipment is more important than technique. Of course, I understand that technique is more 'important to develop than purchasing the best equipment. But the world of all the different types and technologies of table tennis rubbers and blades is fascinating, and I do have a desire to know more about them. And just to reassure you, I have only ever used 2 real blades in my whole table tennis career, so I am not really an equipment junkie (or at least I do not think so), it is just I have an interest in the equipment.

The main point is that hard shots from pros can push rubbers to limits that they want something that responds well under those circumstances. I remember a high level player telling me that he would test rubbers by putting then through a heavy serve, heavy push, heavy opener and countertopspin drill, and listen to the response of the rubber on the countertopspin. If the rubber made a funny noise or slipped, he would write it off. If the rubber didn't, he could trust it.

That's why it's always funny for me to see people reviewing rubbers/blades without video or talking about their level of play. Just seeing you loop can give me an idea of whether I should trust your evaluation of a rubber, and there is stuff you can get away with at the 2200 level that falls apart at the 2600 level. So all reviews are level sensitive, so to speak.

laistrogian
12-05-2016, 10:19 PM
The main point is that hard shots from pros can push rubbers to limits that they want something that responds well under those circumstances. I remember a high level player telling me that he would test rubbers by putting then through a heavy serve, heavy push, heavy opener and countertopspin drill, and listen to the response of the rubber on the countertopspin. If the rubber made a funny noise or slipped, he would write it off. If the rubber didn't, he could trust it.

That's why it's always funny for me to see people reviewing rubbers/blades without video or talking about their level of play. Just seeing you loop can give me an idea of whether I should trust your evaluation of a rubber, and there is stuff you can get away with at the 2200 level that falls apart at the 2600 level. So all reviews are level sensitive, so to speak.

This. It's always funny seeing people say "this is enough for me" or "oh I need something better" when they could barely create proper spin on their loop or able to control their spin on pushes.

Baal
12-05-2016, 10:56 PM
Of course, outside of the table tennis skill level stuff, there is some of the chemistry and engineering part. I read the Nexy posts about rubber history at the time with interest, and the history was interesting, but honestly was not convinced by all of it. I trust his expertise more on blades than rubber as things stand now. Some of it I couldn't tell if it was a language issue or maybe some other limitation, but bear in mind that the whole thing was a preface to the introduction he was making for his own "latest and greatest newest most advanced thinking in table tennis" product, which is now available, recently. A lot of what he writes is self-serving in that way. I think it pays to be aware of that when you read him.

For what it's worth reaction relatively high level (2450-2600) Tenergy users in my city have to MX-P is generally "not bad at all, I could use this, how much did you say it costs again?". The grain of salt is that none of them hit with it for more than a couple of minutes. But I think it is actually possible that some world top 100 players use an ESN rubber because they like it and not just because they are contractually obligated.

NextLevel
12-05-2016, 11:11 PM
Of course, outside of the table tennis skill level stuff, there is some of the chemistry and engineering part. I read the Nexy posts about rubber history at the time with interest, and the history was interesting, but honestly was not convinced by all of it. I trust his expertise more on blades than rubber as things stand now. Some of it I couldn't tell if it was a language issue or maybe some other limitation, but bear in mind that the whole thing was a preface to the introduction he was making for his own "latest and greatest newest most advanced thinking in table tennis" product, which is now available, recently. A lot of what he writes is self-serving in that way. I think it pays to be aware of that when you read him.

For what it's worth reaction relatively high level (2450-2600) Tenergy users in my city have to MX-P is generally "not bad at all, I could use this, how much did you say it costs again?". The grain of salt is that none of them hit with it for more than a couple of minutes. But I think it is actually possible that some world top 100 players use an ESN rubber because they like it and not just because they are contractually obligated.

I find it interesting that you trust his expertise on anything. Yes, a lot of it is promotional hype, but I doubt he is saying anything that he hasn't discussed with good players.

For me, as much as I like Karis, and I use it largely because I prefer harder topsheets, the one thing that leaves me skeptical about it is that it is a close cousin of Airoc Astro and I never used Airoc Astro. Without that, I can't tell what Karis does better or worse.

doraemon
12-05-2016, 11:35 PM
Of course, outside of the table tennis skill level stuff, there is some of the chemistry and engineering part. I read the Nexy posts about rubber history at the time with interest, and the history was interesting, but honestly was not convinced by all of it. I trust his expertise more on blades than rubber as things stand now. Some of it I couldn't tell if it was a language issue or maybe some other limitation, but bear in mind that the whole thing was a preface to the introduction he was making for his own "latest and greatest newest most advanced thinking in table tennis" product, which is now available, recently. A lot of what he writes is self-serving in that way. I think it pays to be aware of that when you read him.

For what it's worth reaction relatively high level (2450-2600) Tenergy users in my city have to MX-P is generally "not bad at all, I could use this, how much did you say it costs again?". The grain of salt is that none of them hit with it for more than a couple of minutes. But I think it is actually possible that some world top 100 players use an ESN rubber because they like it and not just because they are contractually obligated.

Oh. So you are saying that this Nexy guy/girl writes for the purposes of the Nexy company.

And what exactly is Nexy? Is it a toy company which is vertically integrating into professional table tennis equipment? Because I see a lot of toy bicycles and things like that

Baal
12-06-2016, 12:52 AM
I find it interesting that you trust his expertise on anything. Yes, a lot of it is promotional hype, but I doubt he is saying anything that he hasn't discussed with good players.

For me, as much as I like Karis, and I use it largely because I prefer harder topsheets, the one thing that leaves me skeptical about it is that it is a close cousin of Airoc Astro and I never used Airoc Astro. Without that, I can't tell what Karis does better or worse.

The guy has definitely built some blades people seem to like. He is willing to do what seem to me to be some pretty unconventional things with wood, also. He was insightful enough to start marketing seamless balls early on (even though he doesn't make those himself, and he made some fairly inflated claims about how his are somehow different and better, which was not even remotely obvious to me, and I feel like I know quite a bit about balls).

Compared to everything else in TT equipment design, rubber is a whole different thing, and specifically requires are pretty high level of technical expertise in a LOT of different things, which makes it orders of magnitude more complicated than almost everything else in the sport. Thing is, I can't say anything about stuff I haven't tried and I have never tried Karis. This guy's diaries at MyTT get my BS detectors vibrating, sort of like a special Spidey Sense. Of course, unlike Spiderman, my version is not infallible. Even though I am pretty skeptical, I would definitely be interested in hitting with it in the unlikely event someone here shows up with a sheet.

Like you I am sure he discusses his stuff with good players but my experience is that good players have really good hands for feeling when they like something, but in a lot of cases would not be able to tell you anything about what went into the design of the blade or rubber that caused them to like it. (I am also bad in that way, threads where people talk about how wood affects the playing properties of blades, for example pass me by).

NextLevel
12-06-2016, 01:01 AM
The guy has definitely built some blades people seem to like. He is willing to do what seem to me to be some pretty unconventional things with wood, also. He was insightful enough to start marketing seamless balls early on (even though he doesn't make those himself, and he made some fairly inflated claims about how his are somehow different and better, which was not even remotely obvious to me, and I feel like I know quite a bit about balls).

Compared to everything else in TT equipment design, rubber is a whole different thing, and specifically requires are pretty high level of technical expertise in a LOT of different things, which makes it orders of magnitude more complicated than almost everything else in the sport. Thing is, I can't say anything about stuff I haven't tried and I have never tried Karis. This guy's diaries at MyTT get my BS detectors vibrating, sort of like a special Spidey Sense. Of course, unlike Spiderman, my version is not infallible. Even though I am pretty skeptical, I would definitely be interested in hitting with it in the unlikely event someone here shows up with a sheet.

I think for rubber design, building a rubber from scratch via a chemical process is different from selecting and specifying a pimple geometry and topsheet thickness. The rubber in terms of physical appearance and composition is clearly a variant of Airoc or Airoc Astro. What could be different I'd what the specific parameters of sponge density and topsheet pimple configuration were tested and that is largely experimentation (I mean, looking at the differences between the T05 and T64 and T80 sheets, I could come up with something and I know next to nothing about the chemistry or rubber design).

Making blades is kinda similar. You can experiment without knowing the actual physics and get something playable.

Baal
12-06-2016, 01:12 AM
I think for rubber design, building a rubber from scratch via a chemical process is different from selecting and specifying a pimple geometry and topsheet thickness. The rubber in terms of physical appearance and composition is clearly a variant of Airoc or Airoc Astro. What could be different I'd what the specific parameters of sponge density and topsheet pimple configuration were tested and that is largely experimentation (I mean, looking at the differences between the T05 and T64 and T80 sheets, I could come up with something and I know next to nothing about the chemistry or rubber design).

Making blades is kinda similar. You can experiment without knowing the actual physics and get something playable.

Yes, this is all true. I think there are more tricks to sponge than just density, but in general this makes sense to me. It still amazes me what big differences in playing properties you can get from the pip geometry and layout within the Tenergy series.

doraemon
12-06-2016, 01:34 AM
I find it interesting that you trust his expertise on anything. Yes, a lot of it is promotional hype, but I doubt he is saying anything that he hasn't discussed with good players.

For me, as much as I like Karis, and I use it largely because I prefer harder topsheets, the one thing that leaves me skeptical about it is that it is a close cousin of Airoc Astro and I never used Airoc Astro. Without that, I can't tell what Karis does better or worse.

So do YOU trust him? If you don't, why did you get me to read it?

NextLevel
12-06-2016, 01:52 AM
So do YOU trust him? If you don't, why did you get me to read it?

I'm now fairly certain you are trolling.

Baal
12-06-2016, 02:25 AM
Yes. My patience is also getting strained.

doraemon
12-06-2016, 02:26 AM
I'm now fairly certain you are trolling.

Sorry. I was a little confused :P

At first you said that you understood a lot more about stuff from this guy, and then you implied that some of the things he said was incorrect, but I understand that you were talking about something else

Also, I am not a troll

doraemon
12-06-2016, 02:27 AM
The guy has definitely built some blades people seem to like. He is willing to do what seem to me to be some pretty unconventional things with wood, also. He was insightful enough to start marketing seamless balls early on (even though he doesn't make those himself, and he made some fairly inflated claims about how his are somehow different and better, which was not even remotely obvious to me, and I feel like I know quite a bit about balls).

Compared to everything else in TT equipment design, rubber is a whole different thing, and specifically requires are pretty high level of technical expertise in a LOT of different things, which makes it orders of magnitude more complicated than almost everything else in the sport. Thing is, I can't say anything about stuff I haven't tried and I have never tried Karis. This guy's diaries at MyTT get my BS detectors vibrating, sort of like a special Spidey Sense. Of course, unlike Spiderman, my version is not infallible. Even though I am pretty skeptical, I would definitely be interested in hitting with it in the unlikely event someone here shows up with a sheet.

Like you I am sure he discusses his stuff with good players but my experience is that good players have really good hands for feeling when they like something, but in a lot of cases would not be able to tell you anything about what went into the design of the blade or rubber that caused them to like it. (I am also bad in that way, threads where people talk about how wood affects the playing properties of blades, for example pass me by).

Who exactly do you mean by "good players?" Are there any top players sponsored by Nexy?

Tembel
12-06-2016, 06:52 AM
Of course, outside of the table tennis skill level stuff, there is some of the chemistry and engineering part. I read the Nexy posts about rubber history at the time with interest, and the history was interesting, but honestly was not convinced by all of it. I trust his expertise more on blades than rubber as things stand now. Some of it I couldn't tell if it was a language issue or maybe some other limitation, but bear in mind that the whole thing was a preface to the introduction he was making for his own "latest and greatest newest most advanced thinking in table tennis" product, which is now available, recently. A lot of what he writes is self-serving in that way. I think it pays to be aware of that when you read him.

For what it's worth reaction relatively high level (2450-2600) Tenergy users in my city have to MX-P is generally "not bad at all, I could use this, how much did you say it costs again?". The grain of salt is that none of them hit with it for more than a couple of minutes. But I think it is actually possible that some world top 100 players use an ESN rubber because they like it and not just because they are contractually obligated.

I have now also read the Nexy-posts on MyTT. Very interesting read. However, I agree with Baal that part of what he is writing is to convince the readers of where Nexy Karis excels and which part of the market share should be theirs. I mean, they basically say they can't compete with Tenergy, so that leaves the nearest competitor which now is Tibhar MX-P. A big part of his posts is down talking MX-P but praising Stiga Rubbers (which to my knowledge don't have a big market share).

doraemon
12-06-2016, 09:07 AM
I have now also read the Nexy-posts on MyTT. Very interesting read. However, I agree with Baal that part of what he is writing is to convince the readers of where Nexy Karis excels and which part of the market share should be theirs. I mean, they basically say they can't compete with Tenergy, so that leaves the nearest competitor which now is Tibhar MX-P. A big part of his posts is down talking MX-P but praising Stiga Rubbers (which to my knowledge don't have a big market share).Ok, I think I understand what Baal means now!

ajtatosmano2
12-06-2016, 01:27 PM
I don't know what's up with you, but the reason why I care that much for equipment because I enjoy it. Just feels so good to try new blades, rubbers and understand them! Of course I am also looking for the best equipment for me, but it's like looking for the holy grail, or philosophers' stone.

doraemon
12-06-2016, 08:41 PM
i am sorry for any frustration that i have caused.

TTHopeful
12-07-2016, 05:42 AM
It looks to me that more people still buy the older Butterfly blades such as the viscaria, maze and boll alc. All these new fancy blades you don't see to often at tournaments. I see a lot more of the blades i just mentioned than a apolonia, freitas or garaydia blade. I dont think ive seen anyone use a garaydia of freitas blade yet. Ive seen one tiago in my time...

Baal
12-07-2016, 01:52 PM
Price a lot of the time. The new ones cost more and usually are not better.

laistrogian
12-07-2016, 02:18 PM
It looks to me that more people still buy the older Butterfly blades such as the viscaria, maze and boll alc. All these new fancy blades you don't see to often at tournaments. I see a lot more of the blades i just mentioned than a apolonia, freitas or garaydia blade. I dont think ive seen anyone use a garaydia of freitas blade yet. Ive seen one tiago in my time...

Innerforce ZLC is probably the most popular "modern" blade, along with MJ ZLC


Butterfly basically made a legendary blade when they released viscaria. Just imagine the blade was launched over 15 years ago and to this date, the blade along with its derivatives (TBS, TB ALC) are BTY's best selling blades. These blades and tenergy basically fuel BTY's economy for profit and further R&D

NextLevel
12-07-2016, 02:32 PM
It looks to me that more people still buy the older Butterfly blades such as the viscaria, maze and boll alc. All these new fancy blades you don't see to often at tournaments. I see a lot more of the blades i just mentioned than a apolonia, freitas or garaydia blade. I dont think ive seen anyone use a garaydia of freitas blade yet. Ive seen one tiago in my time...
Since the Appolonia is an Innerforce and the Freitas is a Maze, your statement is interesting. The issue is really price and rebranding for a specific market, not about the blades.

The Garaydia is a different story and is a remarketing of their Hinoki outer line. It is really 3 different older blades all made into a series. The Garaydia T5000 is a replacement for the Gergely/Sardius or similar Hinoki Carbon blades. The Garaydia ZLC is an attempt to replace the Amultart. The Garaydia ALC might be unique, but it might also be an Iolite replacement.

The main takeaway is that there is nothing new under the sun.

NextLevel
12-07-2016, 02:34 PM
Innerforce ZLC is probably the most popular "modern" blade, along with MJ ZLC


Butterfly basically made a legendary blade when they released viscaria. Just imagine the blade was launched over 15 years ago and to this date, the blade along with its derivatives (TBS, TB ALC) are BTY's best selling blades. These blades and tenergy basically fuel BTY's economy for profit and further R&D

You can add the ZJK ALC and other such blades into the mix. This chart is always illuminating.

http://www.butterflyonline.com/Templates/BladeSpecifications.pdf

doraemon
12-07-2016, 07:55 PM
Since the Appolonia is an Innerforce and the Freitas is a Maze, your statement is interesting. The issue is really price and rebranding for a specific market, not about the blades.

The Garaydia is a different story and is a remarketing of their Hinoki outer line. It is really 3 different older blades all made into a series. The Garaydia T5000 is a replacement for the Gergely/Sardius or similar Hinoki Carbon blades. The Garaydia ZLC is an attempt to replace the Amultart. The Garaydia ALC might be unique, but it might also be an Iolite replacement.

The main takeaway is that there is nothing new under the sun.

Where I live, actually I am seeing that instead of the Viscaria or Timo Boll ALC/Spirit, it is actually the Zhang Jike ALC (not Blue Dragon) which is the most popular with the beginners.

Baal
12-07-2016, 09:07 PM
Where I live, actually I am seeing that instead of the Viscaria or Timo Boll ALC/Spirit, it is actually the Zhang Jike ALC (not Blue Dragon) which is the most popular with the beginners.

I have never heard of Kiwis who like to spend money unnecessarily. Odd.

ZJK-ALC is a great blade IMHO, but not more so than the others and more expensive for...???? Guy's name? Who doesn't even use it? Odd. Of course it comes in three handle shapes that are very comfortable.

doraemon
12-07-2016, 09:30 PM
I have never heard of Kiwis who like to spend money unnecessarily. Odd.

ZJK-ALC is a great blade IMHO, but not more so than the others and more expensive for...???? Guy's name? Who doesn't even use it? Odd. Of course it comes in three handle shapes that are very comfortable.

I personally think that it's because the No. 1 junior is playing Zhang Jike ALC, and since it is the newest Viscaria variant it is presumably the best. Also, it is the most expensive, so it has to be the best (!).
Also, about the Kiwi thing- most of the juniors who play table tennis in New Zealand are Chinese, so the Kiwi mentality isn't really there. But even then, they do mostly use expensive equipment anyway.
It is also about the parent's, probably. They want the best for their children, and want them to succeed so when they hear that the best blade is the Zhang Jike ALC from someone, they are more than willing to oblige I guess. And when everyone else uses it, they do not want their own child to be disadvantaged so they follow the trend, as most of the parent's are not really table tennis players, they just go with the flo

UpSideDownCarl
12-07-2016, 09:34 PM
And a beginner using an ALC blade is not the best choice.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

doraemon
12-07-2016, 09:40 PM
But how is that communicated to parents? They only want what is best for their children, so they are naturally drawn to the most expensive ALC blade, instead of Carl's trademark limba-limba-ayous-limba-limba beginner blade (I have read your posts on this subject-big fan), but how are they meant to understand?

What we need is more Carls :) :P

Garrison
12-07-2016, 09:44 PM
In my opinion kids should start with like an ALL blade and then improve their technique and upgrade the equipment step by step as they get stronger

Ilia Minkin
12-07-2016, 09:48 PM
I personally think that it's because the No. 1 junior is playing Zhang Jike ALC, and since it is the newest Viscaria variant it is presumably the best. Also, it is the most expensive, so it has to be the best (!).
Also, about the Kiwi thing- most of the juniors who play table tennis in New Zealand are Chinese, so the Kiwi mentality isn't really there. But even then, they do mostly use expensive equipment anyway.
It is also about the parent's, probably. They want the best for their children, and want them to succeed so when they hear that the best blade is the Zhang Jike ALC from someone, they are more than willing to oblige I guess. And when everyone else uses it, they do not want their own child to be disadvantaged so they follow the trend, as most of the parent's are not really table tennis players, they just go with the flo

Are coaches also Butterfly salesmen? :)

doraemon
12-07-2016, 09:51 PM
Are coaches also Butterfly salesmen? :)

In NZ, it's a little complicated. Because table tennis is not that big in NZ, coaches typically do not have sufficient demand to earn decent living revenue. Therefore, they must search for alternative sources of income, one of which is obviously selling table tennis equipment.

Not all of them are Butterfly though. But in the capital Butterfly dominates. Or in alternative cases you have a different model where coaches are like agents for the salesmen, and I guess salesmen typically (not all of them, like the Donic one) try to sell you the most expensive one or something like that I presume.

And I think the stadium in the capital is sponsored by Butterfly, and you can only buy Butterfly in the stadium, so it is unavoidable. In NZ, because of the lack of interest, a physical table tennis store is not common

laistrogian
12-08-2016, 05:00 AM
You can add the ZJK ALC and other such blades into the mix. This chart is always illuminating.

http://www.butterflyonline.com/Templates/BladeSpecifications.pdf

Well almost no one really buys the ZJK series. Like everyone says, why use a blade that the player himself doesn't use.


For apolonia, the nice thing about it is that you'll rarely find a 90g Innerforce ZLC, so it's nice to have a wider range of weight (between 82g to 93ish maybe)

rokphish
12-08-2016, 05:28 AM
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161208/dc46d7f2e69f5af7837cfb6bbf1561f7.jpg

rokphish
12-08-2016, 05:31 AM
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161208/87d32d9fcedb78ee6fd93763abde46e3.jpg

ttpshot
12-08-2016, 05:56 AM
Most players start playing TT from age between 12-16 and they make up about 80% of the registered players in Japan so Korbel instead of Vicaria is by far the best selling blade for last 10 years.

Viscaria variants are popluar amongst top players but there they only represents tiny numbers. Not sure why people are still drooling over Viscaria when TB ALC is available though. It's been discontinued in Japan a long time ago.

rokphish
12-08-2016, 06:10 AM
Both Korbel and Viscaria was issued out of productions a few years back (at least here in my country), but then recently back in production and sales again.

Baal
12-08-2016, 02:07 PM
Most players start playing TT from age between 12-16 and they make up about 80% of the registered players in Japan so Korbel instead of Vicaria is by far the best selling blade for last 10 years.

Viscaria variants are popluar amongst top players but there they only represents tiny numbers. Not sure why people are still drooling over Viscaria when TB ALC is available though. It's been discontinued in Japan a long time ago.

Some people like the handle shape and weight balance of Viscaria better. They are both good blades, both are used by many good players. I am one of those who prefers Viscaria, and Viscaria is cheaper. I always found it odd that you can't buy it in Japan.

I will state again, as a guy who loves (most) Bttfly ALC blades and who had used them exclusively since 2007, that the Donic True Carbon is as good as any of them, and I have not previously found that to be true for other alternatives (but never tried the Doubleday ones, which are probably very similar).

UpSideDownCarl
12-08-2016, 02:55 PM
Some people like the handle shape and weight balance of Viscaria better. They are both good blades, both are used by many good players. I am one of those who prefers Viscaria, and Viscaria is cheaper. I always found it odd that you can't buy it in Japan.

I will state again, as a guy who loves (most) Bttfly ALC blades and who had used them exclusively since 2007, that the Donic True Carbon is as good as any of them, and I have not previously found that to be true for other alternatives (but never tried the Doubleday ones, which are probably very similar).

Where is that darn Super Like button. Great post.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

UpSideDownCarl
12-08-2016, 03:00 PM
As far as you, doraemon, this is what I think you should do:

Get yourself a Tibhar Stratus Power Wood. Put whatever rubber you want on it.

TSPW is a great blade. It is a little slower than the ALC blades. But only a little. Being a 5 ply all wood blade, it is good for developing technique and learning to hold the ball longer for more spin. The slightly larger head size (151x158mm) does make it a little head heavy. But it adds some extra speed and feeling. Both of which are worth having.

That should be a good blade for you and it is much less expensive than the ALC blades that are worth buying. So, since price is an issue, that really should be a good blade for you.


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rokphish
12-08-2016, 03:19 PM
Actually, since he said it's Butterfly land over there, he might just do well to get Petr Korbel instead. Same reasoning as above.

Or, going with the other thread he started, he seems to prefer Donic, and keep driving toward ALC, so might as well pull the trigger on True Carbon and be done with it.

Killerspintt
12-08-2016, 04:42 PM
Some players are more selective with their equipment.
Ma long proved none of this matters, he's used 5ply, 7ply, carbon outside, carbon inside and he beats them all.

That doesn't mean it doesn't matter to him !! When he was sponsored by Nittaku after the glue ban he switched from his Rutis to butterfly viscaria-like blades (TBS, TBalc)......showing that no Nittaku blade was "enough ok" for him at this time. To me it is showing that he is quite selective even if he played with a lot of blades during his carrier. He proved he could be the best with many different blades, with Koto outer ply as well as Limba outer ply....I agree.
But to not find a suitable offensive Nittaku blade for yourself you definitely have to be quite selective.

Interesting thing, when he didn't used a blade from his sponsor, he chosed, like many other players, a viscaria-like from butterfly.

Baal
12-08-2016, 05:37 PM
As far as you, doraemon, this is what I think you should do:

Get yourself a Tibhar Stratus Power Wood. Put whatever rubber you want on it.

TSPW is a great blade. It is a little slower than the ALC blades. But only a little. Being a 5 ply all wood blade, it is good for developing technique and learning to hold the ball longer for more spin. The slightly larger head size (151x158mm) does make it a little head heavy. But it adds some extra speed and feeling. Both of which are worth having.

That should be a good blade for you and it is much less expensive than the ALC blades that are worth buying. So, since price is an issue, that really should be a good blade for you.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

I agree with this. Excellent blade. My personal favorite all wood (I have not tried that many, though).

laistrogian
12-08-2016, 06:02 PM
Most players start playing TT from age between 12-16 and they make up about 80% of the registered players in Japan so Korbel instead of Vicaria is by far the best selling blade for last 10 years.

Viscaria variants are popluar amongst top players but there they only represents tiny numbers. Not sure why people are still drooling over Viscaria when TB ALC is available though. It's been discontinued in Japan a long time ago.

Viscaria is popular because of ZJK, when he got his grandslam. Before that TB ALC and TBS was praised better compared to viscaria because ML was using it


I personally find TB ALC to be better than viscaria due to the handle, it's just much more comfortable and the design is better

UpSideDownCarl
12-08-2016, 06:43 PM
Actually, since he said it's Butterfly land over there, he might just do well to get Petr Korbel instead. Same reasoning as above.

Or, going with the other thread he started, he seems to prefer Donic, and keep driving toward ALC, so might as well pull the trigger on True Carbon and be done with it.

Agree with all of this as well.


I agree with this. Excellent blade. My personal favorite all wood (I have not tried that many, though).

Yep. I think, for an all wood blade the price, the speed and the feel are all top quality and it is pretty affordable. But also can see how rokphish may have a point if he has more access to Butterfly or likes Donic. Any of the options would work well.



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doraemon
12-08-2016, 09:20 PM
Agree with all of this as well.



Yep. I think, for an all wood blade the price, the speed and the feel are all top quality and it is pretty affordable. But also can see how rokphish may have a point if he has more access to Butterfly or likes Donic. Any of the options would work well.



Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

@Carl
I did some further research on ALC, and this is what I think I have found. I would appreciate is you can confirm this, if you can.



When we make contact with the ball, the "feeling" we get is essentially the vibration from the impact of the ball.
Carbon is used to increase the stiffness and therefore rebound (speed) of the blade without adding many layers of wood to achieve the same effect, which would typically drastically increase weight, which carbon does not
Arylate,on the other hand, is softer and promotes greater control for that reason. It also has "vibration control" which, funnily enough, reduces vibration :P
So Butterfly and others wove the two materials together to combine the speed and power of the carbon material with the control of arylate to make ALC
The "increased sweetspot" due to arylate is actually due to the lack of feeling which you have due to the materials. Because of this, even when you have not hit the optimal point of the bat, due to the lack of feeling you are tricked into thinking you have, as usually the perfect stroke makes you feel close to nothing anyway


I guess the final bullet point is most likely why I felt that the ALC feels so good- the combination of good speed, and almost the illusion of superior control.

From this, I can understand why you suggest 5 ply all wood. However, as I think that I have stated before, I would like to stick with Donic. So I did more research to look for blades in a similar vein.
From your experience, what do you think of the

Waldner Senso Carbon/Ultra Carbon
Waldner Offensive (2016)

Thanks in advance

PS Should I have posted this elsewhere?

Baal
12-08-2016, 10:23 PM
Viscaria is popular because of ZJK, when he got his grandslam. Before that TB ALC and TBS was praised better compared to viscaria because ML was using it


I personally find TB ALC to be better than viscaria due to the handle, it's just much more comfortable and the design is better

You are not alone. There are many very good players who use TB-ALC. But this is without question a matter of taste (as there are many great players using Viscaria also). I did not personally like TB-ALC handle as much (although in FL it was not that big of an issue). Lately I have been playing with ST handles, and I find the TB-ALC version unusually uncomfortable, but like the ZJK-ALC a lot (and the True Carbon, which is almost the same). A lot of this depends on hand size and grip I think.

Without ZJK they would have discontinued the Viscaria long ago I think (as they have in Japan). So for that reason alone I am glad he won those championships. It is still weird that he doesn't use any of the blades with his name on it.

Ilia Minkin
12-09-2016, 03:38 AM
As far as you, doraemon, this is what I think you should do:

Get yourself a Tibhar Stratus Power Wood. Put whatever rubber you want on it.

Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

If you don't mind swinging a little sledgehammer :)

ttpshot
12-09-2016, 04:33 AM
You are not alone. There are many very good players who use TB-ALC. But this is without question a matter of taste (as there are many great players using Viscaria also). I did not personally like TB-ALC handle as much (although in FL it was not that big of an issue). Lately I have been playing with ST handles, and I find the TB-ALC version unusually uncomfortable, but like the ZJK-ALC a lot (and the True Carbon, which is almost the same). A lot of this depends on hand size and grip I think.

Without ZJK they would have discontinued the Viscaria long ago I think (as they have in Japan). So for that reason alone I am glad he won those championships. It is still weird that he doesn't use any of the blades with his name on it.

Oh yeah, I totaly understand handle preferences. I think that's one of the reason Viscaria went out as Japanese hands are generaly smaller.
There are few players who prefers Viscaria handle so they are forced to purchase it from overseas at much higher cost than TB ALC.

Killerspintt
12-09-2016, 01:28 PM
Viscaria have been back into butterfly EU catalogues for many years now. In fact it is now almost the best deal you can find since TB-alc, Matsudaira alc and ZJK alc are more exensivve than the €129 viscaria. Only the TBS is less expensive and remain the most affordable "viscaria-like" from butterfly despite its price increasing again last summer (€99 -> €119).

Baal
12-09-2016, 01:57 PM
Here at US sites, for the most part TBS and Viscaria have been the same price, at least for most of the last several years.

ajtatosmano2
12-09-2016, 03:52 PM
There a lot of beginner uses Korbel and after 3+ year of training they get an ALC/ZLF/ZLC blade.

Ilia Minkin
12-09-2016, 04:08 PM
There a lot of beginner uses Korbel and after 3+ year of training they get an ALC/ZLF/ZLC blade.

In my hometown Korbel is very popular among juniors.

edgy
12-09-2016, 04:15 PM
There a lot of beginner uses Korbel and after 3+ year of training they get an ALC/ZLF/ZLC blade.

And then there are professionals like Jeoung Young-sik who make it into the world top 10 using Korbel. :cool:

rokphish
12-09-2016, 04:34 PM
Well... Here are my Korbels... Where is yours?

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161209/5d906de243c05e28fb2d47bdd038d012.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161209/9727cad022ae8b238e9241d3005b9634.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161209/20bc64bfd3ccdcb51fca37cde0cf94b5.jpg

Garrison
12-09-2016, 05:50 PM
11553

Only got an SK7 does it count? ;) Bought it in straight handle to try it out but wasn't for me.

UpSideDownCarl
12-09-2016, 08:59 PM
@ doraemon

Unbelievably, I don't have time to go point by point. You have some things close enough about ALC and some things not quite. But it doesn't matter much.

The important info is: I don't really know a Donic blade that I would recommend for you.

Baal is right that if you do want an ALC clone then it is the True Carbon. But if you wanted an all wood blade from Donic, I just don't know any that would match the TSPW or the Korbel.

Personally, I would get one of those.

But what is your playing level? How do you play, what style: Allround offensive, defensive, chopper, all out offensive, two winged looper, blocker, smasher?


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Raylazyfo
12-09-2016, 09:08 PM
@Carl
I did some further research on ALC, and this is what I think I have found. I would appreciate is you can confirm this, if you can.



When we make contact with the ball, the "feeling" we get is essentially the vibration from the impact of the ball.
Carbon is used to increase the stiffness and therefore rebound (speed) of the blade without adding many layers of wood to achieve the same effect, which would typically drastically increase weight, which carbon does not
Arylate,on the other hand, is softer and promotes greater control for that reason. It also has "vibration control" which, funnily enough, reduces vibration :P
So Butterfly and others wove the two materials together to combine the speed and power of the carbon material with the control of arylate to make ALC
The "increased sweetspot" due to arylate is actually due to the lack of feeling which you have due to the materials. Because of this, even when you have not hit the optimal point of the bat, due to the lack of feeling you are tricked into thinking you have, as usually the perfect stroke makes you feel close to nothing anyway


I guess the final bullet point is most likely why I felt that the ALC feels so good- the combination of good speed, and almost the illusion of superior control.

From this, I can understand why you suggest 5 ply all wood. However, as I think that I have stated before, I would like to stick with Donic. So I did more research to look for blades in a similar vein.
From your experience, what do you think of the

Waldner Senso Carbon/Ultra Carbon
Waldner Offensive (2016)

Thanks in advance

PS Should I have posted this elsewhere?
I have used the waldner senso carbon but personally I prefer the all wood Waldner Dicon. IMO it matches the Korbel in terms of spin and feeling

doraemon
12-09-2016, 09:10 PM
@ doraemon

Unbelievably, I don't have time to go point by point. You have some things close enough about ALC and some things not quite. But it doesn't matter much.

The important info is: I don't really know a Donic blade that I would recommend for you.

Baal is right that if you do want an ALC clone then it is the True Carbon. But if you wanted an all wood blade from Donic, I just don't know any that would match the TSPW or the Korbel.

Personally, I would get one of those.

But what is your playing level? How do you play, what style: Allround offensive, defensive, chopper, all out offensive, two winged looper, blocker, smasher?

@Carl
Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
Is loop forehand and block backhand in an allround offensive manner (not 100% 3rd ball attack stuff) and am able to properly perform all basic strokes on both sides (loop, drive, block, push), except for away from the table chop. Is this sufficient? Please tell me if you want more info.

doraemon
12-09-2016, 09:19 PM
I have used the waldner senso carbon but personally I prefer the all wood Waldner Dicon. IMO it matches the Korbel in terms of spin and feeling

Thanks, Raylazyfo. According to http://stumpof.blogspot.co.nz/p/stumps-blade-composition-list-j.html , the Dicon has the same composition (limba-spruce-ayous-spruce-limba) as Offensive, so it should be similar, except for the hollowed Dicon handle

UpSideDownCarl
12-09-2016, 11:19 PM
Is loop forehand and block backhand in an allround offensive manner (not 100% 3rd ball attack stuff) and am able to properly perform all basic strokes on both sides (loop, drive, block, push), except for away from the table chop. Is this sufficient? Please tell me if you want more info.

That should be enough. It sounds like, this is where things are:

If you want to play and have fun, then any blade that makes you happy is fine.

If part of your goals in playing are that you would like to improve as much as reasonably possible, the all wood blades will help you develop your technique better than the carbon blades.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

doraemon
12-10-2016, 12:55 AM
That should be enough. It sounds like, this is where things are:

If you want to play and have fun, then any blade that makes you happy is fine.

If part of your goals in playing are that you would like to improve as much as reasonably possible, the all wood blades will help you develop your technique better than the carbon blades.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by TelepathyOK. This makes sense. How good do you think you have to be to decently convert to ALC then?

UpSideDownCarl
12-10-2016, 02:58 PM
If you are still devolving your touch for spinning the ball and the amount of spin you get on your loops can be significantly improved, an all wood blade will help you develop the touch for the extra spin faster.

If you can loop any all you want, topspin or underspin, and your loops get decently high level spin, then you can use any blade you want and still keep developing.

Somewhere around when a player is close to the elite amateur/semi-pro level, the player will be able to use the full potential of an ALC blade and not have the Carbon negatively impact his/her development.

Don't get me wrong. There are plenty of players who start with an ALC blade right from the beginning and get to a pretty high level. But they probably would have got there faster with an all wood blade and may top out at a slightly higher level if there development had started with that all wood blade.

There is a nice example here on the forum. Abe Gold started playing with a Viscaria with H3 and T05. Familiar setup. He got to about 1500 (USATT) with that setup in about 2 years of training with a coach. Then Der_Echte gave him an all wood control blade--Nexy Spartacus--with control rubbers. MXP FH and Nexy Elpis BH and his level skyrocketed. In the next year or so, he went up to 1900+.

The way he explained it, after he got the new setup, everything seemed to go in and he felt the ball much better with the Spartacus.

He would have got there eventually with the Viscaria. He just got there faster with a simpler setup.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

soli
12-10-2016, 04:31 PM
Then Der_Echte gave him an all wood control blade--Nexy Spartacus--with control rubbers.
While I agree with the message you're trying to convey, isn't Nexy Spartacus a 5+2 carbon blade? (still slower than Viscaria, but not all-wood)

UpSideDownCarl
12-10-2016, 05:08 PM
While I agree with the message you're trying to convey, isn't Nexy Spartacus a 5+2 carbon blade? (still slower than Viscaria, but not all-wood)

You are right. My brain blipped. Spartacus is a slower carbon blade. My bad. So, with Abe the development happened with just a slower softer carbon blade.

And we could never fully compare him devoting with that equipment vs him getting the same training and developing the whole time with an all wood blade.

One thing worth knowing, Ma Long played with all wood blades straight through his whole junior career.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Baal
12-10-2016, 05:16 PM
A lot of conventional wisdom back in 38 mm ball era was that carbon was excessive, especially with speed glue. I thing that was especially true in China. Things are different now.

UpSideDownCarl
12-11-2016, 12:15 AM
A lot of conventional wisdom back in 38 mm ball era was that carbon was excessive, especially with speed glue. I thing that was especially true in China. Things are different now.

Yeah. Maybe I'm outdated. And people don't need all wood Off- blades as much anymore. I do think the extra feeling helps for learning certain things about touch. But with the plastic ball, maybe it is not as important.

I still feel that people can learn to get higher levels of spin more easily if they learn with an all wood blade. And that a lot of players get a carbon blade too early in their development. But, perhaps it is not as important in today's game as it was a few years ago.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Baal
12-11-2016, 12:26 AM
I see kids here with Chinese coaches with composite blades of various sorts. I remember, though, in 90s, all the really good players I knew used all wood blades. Most of those guys are using ALC blades now. I think if you play with something long enough, it may not matter.

NextLevel
12-11-2016, 05:01 AM
I see kids here with Chinese coaches with composite blades of various sorts. I remember, though, in 90s, all the really good players I knew used all wood blades. Most of those guys are using ALC blades now. I think if you play with something long enough, it may not matter.

Carbon blades and ALC blades have come a long way according to many people I speak to on the subject, even more so with the plastic ball. I remember talking to a friend of mine and he felt that the TBS/TB ALC were relatively woody. He just didn't think the extra expense was justified until he had to deal with the plastic ball. He used a Clipper until then. Even Stellan Bengston is quoted on PaddlePalace as saying that Carbon blades are now more similar to wooden blades.

http://blog.paddlepalace.com/2011/08/what-are-the-advantagesdisadvantages-to-carbon-blades-versus-all-wood-blades/

I know how much I struggled to use ALC koto blades and that using very fast blades repeatedly hurt my game. Maybe I should have stuck with them longer, but my impression was that every time I grabbed a wooden blade, I felt more at home. I think for the first time, probably because I left behind Tenergy, I actually want to use a faster blade.

The high-level coach I know (at another club) who recommends equipment for his students sticks everyone on an Innerforce ZLC. None of the kids I know started on a carbon or composite blade, though most of them switched to one by the time they were around 1300-1500 USATT or so.

Baal
12-11-2016, 06:03 AM
Now more similar to wood blades? I'm not quite sure what that means in the sense that Butterfly has not really changed the basic concept behind most of their ALC blades in almost 20 years. True a really old TBS or Viscaria is not exactly identical to one you buy now, but the differences are relatively minor in the overall scheme of things, and actually the oldest ones were a bit thinner, slower, and more flexible, and therefore more wood-like than one you would buy today.

Perhaps it means that with these heavy and larger diameter plastic balls, the various ALC blades (or their ZLC various cousins) basically give you the same overall power relative to the ball that one would have had with something like a Clipper or Cresail back when we could speed glue Bryce and were playing with 38 mm balls? It sort of seems that way.

One thing I am quite sure of, back when I first came back to the game after a long layoff, there were quite a few carbon blades, but when people I talked to thought about carbon they figured it meant something like a Sardius or a Gergeley, or something like that, and weren't thinking about the much more controllable ALC blades. So a lot of good players from those days (well actually they are still good players) advised me to avoid them. At the time I bought my first Viscaria (this was before the emergence of ZJK and was around 2007 or so) it was a somewhat obscure blade, the only reason I found out about it is I hit with a clubmate's blade (and that evening ordered two of them). Actually the first carbon blade I ever had was something from Tibhar, it has a lot of balsa in it I can't remember what it was called but I am confident that if I tried it now I would think it was awful. (Maybe it was a Rapid Carbon, did they make those in ~2000?). Before Viscaria, I tried all sorts of things, never really actually played with blades that I know now in retrospect would have been good. I probably should have been using a Clipper in those days or a Korbel. One blade I remember that I had was a Nittaku Narcus. It was a bit Korbel-ish I think but with a ridiculously small handle. I had a Keyshot for awhile, that was really nice, but that was just before the Viscaria.

Baal
12-13-2016, 02:56 PM
By the way, doraemon is not who he says he is and NL's suspicion that he is trolling is substantiated (although not malicious trolling, maybe he sees himself as just facilitating discussion). In fact, he has been a member of mytt since 2007 (which would make him pretty old for a junior, which he claimed to be here, recently), and frequently posts there comments with his opinions about various blades, the effects of blade compositions, on playing properties etc. His IP address there says Indonesia (but could be forged), he lists US address there, and New Zealand here.

I don't suppose there is any rule against this, but I mention it for posterity. He certainly managed to keep a thread going.

Here is a post he wrote in May of 2007!!!

NOW I am really really really curious......
What is so good about Accoustic and Violin? Almost everybody explain about "it's not love at first sight but if you court it for months then you are married to it" kind of answer. Gee, I wish it's not that expensive so that I can give it a try.

BTW, what is the difference between Accoustic and Violin in term of Speed, Spin and Control? Can anybody tell it more exact?

Thanks.

P.S.
In term of this special feeling for all-wood blade, I also see people are fanatic to Korbel and Clipper. Another thread may be next time.

Baal
12-13-2016, 03:00 PM
I'm now fairly certain you are trolling.

Indeed he is. See my previous post. It is strange for sure how people amuse themselves.

On the up-side, we had some good discussions about these blades.

doraemon
12-13-2016, 07:21 PM
by the way, doraemon is not who he says he is and nl's suspicion that he is trolling is substantiated (although not malicious trolling, maybe he sees himself as just facilitating discussion). In fact, he has been a member of mytt since 2007 (which would make him pretty old for a junior, which he claimed to be here, recently), and frequently posts there comments with his opinions about various blades, the effects of blade compositions, on playing properties etc. His ip address there says indonesia (but could be forged), he lists us address there, and new zealand here.

I don't suppose there is any rule against this, but i mention it for posterity. He certainly managed to keep a thread going.

Here is a post he wrote in may of 2007!!!

now i am really really really curious......
what is so good about accoustic and violin? Almost everybody explain about "it's not love at first sight but if you court it for months then you are married to it" kind of answer. Gee, i wish it's not that expensive so that i can give it a try.

btw, what is the difference between accoustic and violin in term of speed, spin and control? Can anybody tell it more exact?

thanks.

p.s.
in term of this special feeling for all-wood blade, i also see people are fanatic to korbel and clipper. Another thread may be next time.

that is not me!!!! Please believe me, I only joined this year! That Doraemon is definitely a different one! What do you need for proof? That I'm from NZ? And am DEFINITELY not a TROLL!!!!

Baal
12-13-2016, 07:54 PM
OK. It is conceivable that the doraemon who posts at MyTT since 2007 is not you. I could conceive it. I'm not going to spend any time worrying about it.

NextLevel
12-13-2016, 07:58 PM
that is not me!!!! Please believe me, I only joined this year! That Doraemon is definitely a different one! What do you need for proof? That I'm from NZ? And am DEFINITELY not a TROLL!!!!
Have Matt Hetherington vouch for you.:mad:

doraemon
12-13-2016, 08:16 PM
Have Matt Hetherington vouch for you.:mad:

How am I meant to do that?

NextLevel
12-13-2016, 08:18 PM
How am I meant to do that?

Obviously, he is a New Zealander so if you know the table tennis scene, you should be able to chat with him about it. If you don't want to do it, that is fine, but please stop acting like a troll.

ttpshot
12-14-2016, 05:59 AM
One thing I am quite sure of, back when I first came back to the game after a long layoff, there were quite a few carbon blades, but when people I talked to thought about carbon they figured it meant something like a Sardius or a Gergeley, or something like that, and weren't thinking about the much more controllable ALC blades. So a lot of good players from those days (well actually they are still good players) advised me to avoid them. At the time I bought my first Viscaria (this was before the emergence of ZJK and was around 2007 or so) it was a somewhat obscure blade, the only reason I found out about it is I hit with a clubmate's blade (and that evening ordered two of them).

I think that analysis is right on money as 1st gen Carbon blades are lot thicker and the maker claimed it was faster as the carbon material was lighter and more rigid than wood. Viscaria and other ALC blades are lot thinner by comparison which gave more feeling at controlable speed. So players who are used to old carbon blades would find ALC blades a lot closer to wooden blades.

Choice is vast nowadays as there are rigit wooden blades(eg infinity VPS) and slower carbon blades(ALC IF etc).
Juniors in my club usualy progress to carbon blades after roughly 3000 to 4000 hours. It's not because they lack speed in their loops, it's just that the loops are useless until you become competitive at serves/recieves/opening.

laistrogian
12-14-2016, 12:30 PM
I think that analysis is right on money as 1st gen Carbon blades are lot thicker and the maker claimed it was faster as the carbon material was lighter and more rigid than wood. Viscaria and other ALC blades are lot thinner by comparison which gave more feeling at controlable speed. So players who are used to old carbon blades would find ALC blades a lot closer to wooden blades.

Choice is vast nowadays as there are rigit wooden blades(eg infinity VPS) and slower carbon blades(ALC IF etc).
Juniors in my club usualy progress to carbon blades after roughly 3000 to 4000 hours. It's not because they lack speed in their loops, it's just that the loops are useless until you become competitive at serves/recieves/opening.

Innerforce ALC is by no means a slow blade, it's definitely is as fast as TB ALC in looping. It's why I love innerforce series. You get carbon sweetspot and power with close to all-wood touch and feeling

ttpshot
12-14-2016, 01:03 PM
Innerforce ALC is by no means a slow blade, it's definitely is as fast as TB ALC in looping. It's why I love innerforce series. You get carbon sweetspot and power with close to all-wood touch and feeling

Oh no, never meant to say IFs are slow. What I meant was that they are slower compared to some other carbon blades and it's great to be able to choose from wide range of good blades.

Baal
12-14-2016, 01:11 PM
So many more choices in composite blades now that it's hard to generalize. Funny thing is some of the guys who advised me to avoid carbon blades in late 90s now play with Viscaria after trying mine some ten years later.

Baal
12-14-2016, 01:15 PM
Of course things were different with 38 mm balls and speed glue and early carbon blades often felt like you were playing with a piece of glass.














.

NextLevel
12-14-2016, 01:56 PM
Of course things were different with 38 mm balls and speed glue and early carbon blades often felt like you were playing with a piece of glass.

.

You make an interesting point. People often ask what made Schlager more potent in the 40+ era with speed glue, and this might be a part of it.

Suga D
12-14-2016, 05:15 PM
How am I meant to do that?

I thought orks, hobbits and dwarfs are from New Zealand too, why not Trolls?
[That was a joke, I'm aware that Trolls have their origin in Norway]
[Emoji6]

Obviously, he is a New Zealander so if you know the table tennis scene, you should be able to chat with him about it. If you don't want to do it, that is fine, but please stop acting like a troll.

Oh shucks, i've first read New Zoolander...
[Emoji15]
i think it's about time to reduce watching crappy movies...

Matt Hetherington
12-18-2016, 01:06 AM
Consider him vouched for, the mytt account is not related to him at all. He's a junior player from New Zealand and like most developing young players in my homeland there isn't a lot of education around equipment or always good available options. So ease off a little, he's not a troll, he's creating discussion for genuine purposes. If anyone has any issues with that I suggest they leave the thread.

NextLevel
12-18-2016, 01:13 AM
Consider him vouched for, the mytt account is not related to him at all. He's a junior player from New Zealand and like most developing young players in my homeland there isn't a lot of education around equipment or always good available options. So ease off a little, he's not a troll, he's creating discussion for genuine purposes. If anyone has any issues with that I suggest they leave the thread.

Thanks. As for leaving the thread, I've already done that a couple of times already and won't hesitate to do so if I feel things are becoming unproductive. He is not malicious but he won't win style points with his approach.

Matt Hetherington
12-18-2016, 09:19 AM
Thanks. As for leaving the thread, I've already done that a couple of times already and won't hesitate to do so if I feel things are becoming unproductive. He is not malicious but he won't win style points with his approach.

Nobody is here to earn style points this isn't the X Factor it's a table tennis forum.

Baal
12-18-2016, 11:04 AM
Cool. I had also come pretty close to the conclusion that the name Doraemon being in two forums really IS a coincidence, and a couple of subtle word usages I noticed when I went back on this thread did seem like the Antipodes. I mentioned that to Carl in a pm, who then wrote back to let me know that the ip address was from NZ. That's why I had already let it go. I don't think anyone else was pushing the point either.

Also, kids get extra patience. Now that we know he really is a junior.

NextLevel
12-18-2016, 11:42 AM
Nobody is here to earn style points this isn't the X Factor it's a table tennis forum.


As someone who had complained about people who make negative comments about your videos, yours is an interesting statement to say the least.

In any case, thanks for vouching does him. I agree with Baal.

UpSideDownCarl
12-18-2016, 06:07 PM
Matt, thanks for vouching for doraemon. Baal and NextLevel have been a real help in finding former members who have been banned for bad behavior pretending to be a new member.

Sorry to doraemon that some of his posts made them think that might be the case.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

scoops
12-18-2016, 09:53 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSXZaskeoZg There are some close ups but it's hard to see much from the resolution. However if he was using the ALC the handle should be darker I guess. I watched a match the other day from a very recent, as in few weeks, and could clearly see he was still using the Maze, deffo 100%

Baal
12-18-2016, 11:40 PM
This must mean that in spite of what manufacturers sometimes claim, players don't have all that much Iinput into the design of blades with their name on them . Otherwise the blade would be perfect for them and they would use at least one of them!

Baal
12-18-2016, 11:43 PM
An interesting question is which players actually use the blades that have their names? I can name Boll and Drinkhal Not sure about many others Ma Long I think.

doraemon
12-18-2016, 11:56 PM
Jun Mizutani
Liu Shiwen
Tiago Apolonia
Jan Ove Waldner(I think, not sure it counts)
Wang Hao (retired)
Fang Bo
Quadri Aruna
Samsonov (not sure)

Thats a few. But there are so many more players which I can name who do NOT use them :)

scoops
12-19-2016, 12:49 AM
Is clever marketing to get us to buy. Aruna blade is a rossi emotion, identical except handle colour. Apolonia is basically new handle on innerforce ZLC. But we will try it or buy it for sure. Bet there are way more out there that are rebranded from the 38mm 40mm ball era now being sold as something else for poly poo ball hey??

scoops
12-19-2016, 12:51 AM
I think they should be open about what they us instead of sticking edge tape on to hide sponge colour etc.
Dima uses his Donic blade too yes?

ttpshot
12-19-2016, 01:03 AM
Does maker's ads says the player uses the maker's equipment?
Most of them are quite subtle in that department. Like Butterfly claiming that the ZJK blade is developed "in colaboration with" ZJK.

rokphish
12-19-2016, 01:53 AM
I know that Marcos gf is using Marcos Freitas blade.

laistrogian
12-19-2016, 04:21 AM
I watched a match the other day from a very recent, as in few weeks, and could clearly see he was still using the Maze, deffo 100%

People need to bear in mind that Maze ALC = Freitas ALC in terms of their wood ply. Their handle shape is also similar (at least in terms of FL)


Maze somewhat retired and it makes sense for butterfly to stop using his name. But there's still a world class player that uses his blade, which for butterfly is a good opportunity to re-brand the blade and able to increase its price. It's purely marketing.


The same thing applies to TBS. You rarely see it being put on ads anymore because timo boll uses TB ALC and ZJK uses viscaria. At the same time, TBS is basically the same blade as those 2 and is cheaper

urbanzakapa
12-19-2016, 05:42 AM
So a lot of good info. NextLevel's explanation of how stuff a mid level player may not feel is something a pro level player may really feel, lines up with how Wang Chen explained the difference between Commercial, Provincial and National H3. She said a pro would feel the difference and it is subtle. But it should not matter to a mid level amateur.

But I am looking at something else here. So, hopefully this information is useful to you.

I see a big interest in table tennis equipment. In one thread I made a joke about EJ virus and the goon squad. Here I will talk about equipment.

The first thing to understand is, deep inquiry to try and understand equipment is valuable if it is because you are the type of person who likes to know and wants to understand. But if it is about thinking equipment is more important than it is, this can be an expensive route to follow. And it will likely not help your technique improve.

It is worth knowing that blades that are in the same class are, well...in the same class.

What does this mean?

Blades that have the plies:

Limba-Limba-Ayous-Limba-Limba

Will have more in common than they will have differences.

ZJK ALC, TB Spirit, TB ALC, Viscaria and a few other blades are almost identical aside from the handle. Other companies have tried to create the same effect. The only blade that has done that successfully so far seems to be the True Carbon.

When you have a blade and rubber setup that works for you, sticking with it will be better for your developing technique and improving than searching out new equipment.

Developing technique in this sport is more important than what equipment you use. One way that this is often expressed is: "It is not the racket it is the person with the racket in his hand."

I know this info is simple and you really already get this stuff.

More on subject to this thread is that, for whatever reason, the pros don't always use what they appear to use. Fan Zhendong uses a Viscaria with a Stiga Infinity handle. ZJK seems to use a Viscaria but rumor has it that it is a custom blade with a Viscaria handle. Whether this is true or not doesn't really matter to me. But what is for sure is that he does not use any of the blades with his name on them.

I could go on and on because there are so many pros who pretend to use one thing but really use something else. Why? I am not really sure. Sponsorship cobtracts? Probably for someone like FZD or Wang Liqin or Dimitri Ovtcharov. Probably not for ZJK since he absolutely does not hide that he doesn't use any of the blades with his name.

One thing I can tell you is, whatever racket you are using is probably okay. Is it optimal for your development? I am not sure because I don't know your level or what you are using. But most offensive players who are not yet at the elite amateur or semi-pro level would probably be best served by using a 5 ply, all wood blade that has decent flex and good feeling with any kind of modern offensive rubber.

Often people talk about how the pros get special rackets and rubbers. I am not 100% sure that is always exactly true. But there is some truth in it. And the bigger issue is that most top pros get dozens of blades to try and reject dozens blades before the choose 3-4 for themselves.

One time I got to try a blade that had been specifically made for Xu Xin and had been rejected. Not sure what he didn't like about it. But it still felt awesome.

That chance to try and choose is really the bigger issue for the pros. Once they have selected a main blade and a few backups, they probably use those for quite a while before changing.

But the more important thing is, this kind of inquiry can be fun. But don't let it interfere with the fact that working on technique is much more valuable than worrying about equipment.

Someone like NextLevel is an expert at finding different setups that enhance different aspects of his game. But NextLevel has a physical handicap that makes what he chooses slightly more important than it is for most people. Because he needs a setup that gets the job done while allowing him to keep his joints protected. Which is also part of why he knows so much about equipment and why his opinion should be valued and respected.

But for most people, especially young, developing players, whatever equipment you have and use, your technique will adjust to your equipment and that equipment will work for you.

So don't worry too much about this stuff or what the pros use and why. Inquire. Enjoy learning. But don't think it is too important.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
The one that u said Wang Chen explaining the differences between all three types of hurricane, is there any videos about that? I'd love to watch it

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Baal
12-19-2016, 07:56 AM
Does maker's ads says the player uses the maker's equipment?
Most of them are quite subtle in that department. Like Butterfly claiming that the ZJK blade is developed "in colaboration with" ZJK.

This is the part I think is craziest. Must not have been a very successful collaboration since he doesnt use any of the ZJK blades. By the way, the ZJK ALC is quite nice.

ttpshot
12-19-2016, 08:29 AM
This is the part I think is craziest. Must not have been a very successful collaboration since he doesnt use any of the ZJK blades. By the way, the ZJK ALC is quite nice.

Can't argue with that. Sponsorship usualy works out that if a player actualy used the maker's equipment, they get paid extra for it (endorsement/marketing contract). Obviously ZJK doesn't need extra cash an is almost superstitious on his blade as ZJK ALC is basically a Viscaria.

bongbanvietnam1
12-19-2016, 09:11 AM
blade nice

rokphish
12-21-2016, 01:56 AM
Another vote for Marcos Freitas! [emoji41]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161221/abacf70c47837852c1a66ed9a1ba8910.jpg

UpSideDownCarl
12-21-2016, 02:34 AM
The one that u said Wang Chen explaining the differences between all three types of hurricane, is there any videos about that? I'd love to watch it

That was in a conversation. I am not in the habit of video taping conversations with people I know.

I can think of many that I would like to have recoreded. Matthew Suchy explaining the kind of racket that would be best for a developing player would be on my top ten list. But there are several with Michael Landers and Mark Croitoroo that I wish I had. Probably top pick of all times would be Mark showing me how to read the spin off a serve from the bounce, showing me the difference in arc for top, dead and backspin so you hopefully can pick it up even when you miss the cues from the contact.

rokphish
12-21-2016, 02:45 AM
Just provide date and time, phone number of the phone you're carrying at the moment. He can go ask homeland security for the recordings...

Suga D
12-21-2016, 07:46 AM
Hmmmmh, I thought Carl's SuperDuper NSA-Spyphone records EVERYTHING anyways...
[Emoji15]

UpSideDownCarl
12-21-2016, 12:51 PM
Hmmmmh, I thought Carl's SuperDuper NSA-Spyphone records EVERYTHING anyways...
[Emoji15]

That's why I only use it for tracking the goon squad and when I'm on assignment. But these days I mostly post from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy because then the SpyPhone won't decide to act on its own. Besides, those recordings are classified and I couldn't share them anyway. If you somehow saw them....well....bad things.....

Sent from my UpSideDown SpyPhone without my Consent

Suga D
12-21-2016, 06:37 PM
That's why I only use it for tracking the goon squad and when I'm on assignment. But these days I mostly post from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy because then the SpyPhone won't decide to act on its own. Besides, those recordings are classified and I couldn't share them anyway. If you somehow saw them....well....bad things.....

Sent from my UpSideDown SpyPhone without my Consent

Lulz
[Emoji23]
I actually like that telepathy from the subterranean workshop....
[Emoji2]

scoops
12-22-2016, 12:04 PM
That was in a conversation. I am not in the habit of video taping conversations with people I know.

I can think of many that I would like to have recoreded. Matthew Suchy explaining the kind of racket that would be best for a developing player would be on my top ten list. But there are several with Michael Landers and Mark Croitoroo that I wish I had. Probably top pick of all times would be Mark showing me how to read the spin off a serve from the bounce, showing me the difference in arc for top, dead and backspin so you hopefully can pick it up even when you miss the cues from the contact. The serve would be epic to watch, I think it is easy to see the spin on the serve watching from the side of the table 2 others playing but on the other end of the table I proper struggle sometimes. Wonder if there is one explaining, do you know of any? Would be great :)

scoops
12-22-2016, 12:06 PM
Has anyone tried the Freitas, what it is like? I haven't read the whole post I just flicking through ,spare 2minutes so soz if so.