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Flathitter
04-15-2019, 09:14 PM
I’ve been playing about 25 years consistently. Never have practiced much. People in my area don’t have access to coaching, training, unless they drive a pretty good distance. Anyway, I play with a Sardius, and have Bryce speed on one side, Tacky Chop on the backhand side. I play with thumb laying on the back of the face, and use one side of the paddle about 97% of the time. I’m about 1100 USATT, and have usually won at my club, a great deal. However, I’m on my early 40s and I have been losing lately to a young player that has great footwork, and can hit the ball extremely well. I mostly push, and then go for a power smash or kill shot. My serves are above average. I want to improve, but I am getting really frustrated with staying at a low level for such a long period of time. Any advice welcome. Thanks!

LordPippington
04-15-2019, 09:20 PM
Hard to give specific advice to a player without actually seeing them play. Oftentimes the player in question does not accurately assess their own strengths and weaknesses, in fact they may not even know them!

So treated as a general question, you could get general advice.

Work on your blocking, angles, and changes of pace. What side are they weakest on? Do you consistently hit into their power zone? Do you give the same speed of ball over and over? Do you always hit middle of the table, or do you aim for the white line at times and then hit a slower shot closer to the net?

All kinds of stuff could be the problem and all kinds of stuff could help solve it

Flathitter
04-15-2019, 09:49 PM
Thanks for your advice! You make some very good points. He can get almost anything back, and I will work on getting a video clip of us play-I have one, but I’m not sure if we can post vid on here? My backhand is limited as I only play with one side..like a Seemiller grip. He hits fast, and serves a fast and dead ball. My Sardius is really fast and has no dwell time as it is very hard, and almost no dwell time. I play mostly with Tacky Chop 2, but he is really hard to get anything by-including really powerful smashes in different directions. I have considered going with a different setup. I tried a Butterfly Diode with tacky chop 2 and Tacky Drive, but it didn’t feel right, although my control was much better. I have been blocking off the table, and pushing long off the table, in some cases after he hits the ball. Been missing a lot of smashes or flat kills too. I generally work the ball side to side. Some people say I have to get a backhand or Ill never advance my game. So, I dunno.

Loopadoop
04-15-2019, 10:39 PM
This should help you.
A lot of good info here. Read the lengthy Intro, 5-10 minutes, well worth your time. Then you can come back here and make a better decision.

https://m.facebook.com/NorthLittleRockTableTennisGroup/

A good Coaching source for inverted rubber and long pips players.

Free detailed step by step coaching videos available at:

YouTube yangyang TT

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC10OPVuU4Ttsu1a9lW5r4Sg

Lula
04-16-2019, 05:06 AM
I think your technique sounds a bit limited if i understood you correctly. You are playing some kind of semiller grip?

This is not so much schoolbook technique so i think it Will take a longer time to develope and Maybe be a ceiling on how good you can be.

I think the americans that played these style had a huge benefit that they played when the racket had the same color. But i also think they were pretty good after that. This has nothing to Do with good technique or so high shot quality i think. They were very very good at not missing, variation in placement and tempo and spin. I also think they had a good fh so they could kill the ball.

So if you want ro improve i think you need to stop try to win for a while and work on the things just mention. And work on your tactics. I am also interested in if sardius and Bryce speed is the correct choose of equipment for your style of play. Sounds very fast and lack of feeling.

If you really want ro develope in the future i think you should start over with the technique But this Will take time and is hard if you have played this way for a while. I think atleast you could try to hold the racket more natural.

yogi_bear
04-16-2019, 06:46 AM
Sardius and Bryce, bad combo if your skill is not h8gh enough.

Der_Echte
04-16-2019, 07:53 AM
I think your technique sounds a bit limited if i understood you correctly. You are playing some kind of semiller grip?

This is not so much schoolbook technique so i think it Will take a longer time to develope and Maybe be a ceiling on how good you can be.

I think the americans that played these style had a huge benefit that they played when the racket had the same color. But i also think they were pretty good after that. This has nothing to Do with good technique or so high shot quality i think. They were very very good at not missing, variation in placement and tempo and spin. I also think they had a good fh so they could kill the ball.

So if you want ro improve i think you need to stop try to win for a while and work on the things just mention. And work on your tactics. I am also interested in if sardius and Bryce speed is the correct choose of equipment for your style of play. Sounds very fast and lack of feeling.

If you really want ro develope in the future i think you should start over with the technique But this Will take time and is hard if you have played this way for a while. I think atleast you could try to hold the racket more natural.

What we all call GOOD is of course different for each person. Not so many Americans use this grip, but there are still enough of them around. Many are recreational player class up to 1500 level, which is run of the mill average club member... some are over 2000, Seemiller himself is still strong 2300+ into hiz 60s... that is around one level below Lula.

The majority of USA players has it just like OP is describing... any real club too far away, too long, not open long by the time you get there, no local coach, but some players who want to play...

Obviously difficult to grow by just playing matches trying to win without coaching and development.

USA is a big place and we earned what we got.

One of the few avenues remaining is to play every game to LOSE, but to practice serve return, movement to ball, position, leverage, timing of impact, feel for ball, control of placement, control of impact zone, control of grip pressure, placement of shot, balance, recovery, anticipation and movement to next ball which will be very random...

You get the idea... one can practice serves alone and many of the practical aspects that lead to a higher level.

This comes at a cost of games and many years of practicing this without a coach... but a way to improve many levels is still there... but it can be slow for sure.

As a recreational player, I improved from 1400 to 1600 just by learning a short serve and variations to be smooth... all without much match play or any opponents of any level. Just a crappy table in a rec room in the phone trailer in a remote camp in Iraq.

Improving can be done if approached effectively, but don't expect rocket progress, it will take much determination and practice.

Der_Echte
04-16-2019, 08:11 AM
Sardius and Bryce, bad combo if your skill is not h8gh enough.

Even that equipment can be used and a player improve greatly.

I have seen Korean coaches start players out with even faster/flatter equipment and some players make Div 3 (Usatt 1800+) in 3 years without a FH topspin loop... simply because that equipment suits a fast at the table hitting game many old time coaches advocate.

Having said that, I still basically agree with Yogi's attitude. More middle of the road stuff allows greater percentage chance to develop more of the topspin and touch aspects of the game... which makes it easier to develop a topspin attacking game over the OP's equipment.

Not everyone should be forced to play the "conventional" topspin attacking game.

In league here at our club, there are a couple players who are not exactly in physical condition to run a marathon, they might get a heart attach seeing one on TV... and they do not topspin the ball - wouldn't come close to spelling half the letters of that word... Yet, time and time again, these players trouble the USATT 1600-1900 crowd... often they defeat the offensive powerhouse wanna-be players easily.

This is a crowd that is 1-4 levels above the average USA or Korean amateur club player, so this is not a newbee beginner crowd we are talking about.

One of the players blocks with OX, tries to attack with it, and FH pounds loose or high ball on FH. The other just sticks the bat out and soft hand blocks with LP or SP or MP... consistently gets the ball back. Opponents vs both these players have sudden amnesia about what spin they just put on the ball and either panic when it comes back or wildly/unwisely attack again when clueless about what is on ball and where it goes.

I have had several players approach me and ask me what to do to win vs these players... it just tears them up that a "superior" athletic topspin oriented high spin or high speed attacking game is simply getting them in trouble... like 0-3 losing trouble with average score 6 points trouble... Some of these players take lessons or have in the past, some not.

All of these players bemoan their fate and so hate it that they lose to such a player who "is not playing table tennis" and appears to know not so much about the sport or look like they can play... kinda reminds you of Greg Lett's video where a player gripes about LP to ban then saying LP skill is "not the right kind of skill".

This is an example of player(s) growing and succeeding doing something other than inverted attacking offensive style.

The lady who plays one of the styles mentioned has improved 3 levels or more over the last year and has won her division a few times in difficult competitive Bay Area tourneys.

This surely wasn't an accident or the rubber doing the work for her. She had to see the ball and get to the ball and control the ball.

Someone let me know when rubbers and blades get embedded technology to fire at the enemy at the right moment automatically, kinda like Fighter Jets technology.

Loopadoop
04-16-2019, 09:13 AM
There is a recent post at North Little Rock Table Tennis Group with a video link about a Seemiller grip player, the nightmare.

yogi_bear
04-16-2019, 09:20 AM
Der Echte, i am not saying that people will not develop using very fast equipment but it is easier to learn with slower equipment especially with no coaching.

Loopadoop
04-16-2019, 09:32 AM
Der Echte, i am not saying not people will not develop using very fast equipment but it is easier to learn with slower equipment especially with no coaching.

I personally learned using very fast equipment but if I coach an adult player without much formal training, I use your approach.

Lula
04-16-2019, 11:25 AM
I think OP can become better with his current style and technique but it will take longer time. If he is going to play for 5, 10 years more or even longer i think he will become a better player in the long run if he tries to change his grip. I understand that it is hard without coaches, but it is much easier nowdays with internet. Before internet and youtube you were really ****ed if you wanted to learn a good technique if you did not have coaches. Today i think it is possible for players without coaches to still learn to do the strokes well become there are so much information and videon on youtube.

I thought everyone that played with semiller grip played with anti? if the OP want to continue with this grip maybe he should try that. It is proably hard to get power with backhand with this grip so i think it is very important to be safe, have good placement and variation. So maybe it is best to use anti? or a medium pips?

NextLevel
04-16-2019, 11:58 AM
I’ve been playing about 25 years consistently. Never have practiced much. People in my area don’t have access to coaching, training, unless they drive a pretty good distance. Anyway, I play with a Sardius, and have Bryce speed on one side, Tacky Chop on the backhand side. I play with thumb laying on the back of the face, and use one side of the paddle about 97% of the time. I’m about 1100 USATT, and have usually won at my club, a great deal. However, I’m on my early 40s and I have been losing lately to a young player that has great footwork, and can hit the ball extremely well. I mostly push, and then go for a power smash or kill shot. My serves are above average. I want to improve, but I am getting really frustrated with staying at a low level for such a long period of time. Any advice welcome. Thanks!

Losing to young improving players is part of the cycle of table tennis. Even if you improve he will probably improve more. If you are USATT 1100, there are many ways to improve, the problem though is that most of them require you to find and play better players and to learn and understand better technique. You have played for long enough that without the right kind of coach it will be really hard and even with the right kind of coach, you may not want to do what is required. But there are so many levels above 1100 that you can improve quite a bit. It would probably be best to go to a camp in Indiana with Seemiller for a week.

UpSideDownCarl
04-16-2019, 12:48 PM
I think the posts by Lula and NextLevel are both important.

Also, LordPippington's info that seeing footage will help is pretty useful. If you want to post video on here, all you need to do is upload to YouTube and then post. Not a big deal. Seeing what you are doing will make it so people can give you more concrete info on what specifically you need to work on.

Without that footage, I can still see a lot of different ways in which you could develop without changing technique and just improving your tactics.

At about 1100, you could improve a lot without learning to spin heavy topspin loops. Flat hitting, at that level can still get you several levels higher. I know some guys who have gotten up to 1800-1900 with technique that sounds relatively similar to what you described. But when they broke down their game and decided to learn to spin and loop, they went higher than the ceiling they would have had with just hitting flat.

Next piece of info:

I used to train with an older guy who used Seamiller grip and LP on one side and smooth on the other. Seamiller grip makes it extremely easy to change which side and rubber you use without needing to be skilled in twiddling. This older guy would use LP as the main rubber, holding Seamiller grip for both FH and BH. Every so often, he would switch his grip to Shakehand and use the smooth rubber on the BH. He was actually, about 1800-1900 at about 75 years old. At his height, he was 2100. All you need to do to change from Seamiller to SH is move your thumb to the rubber on the other side and the grip switches.

If you flipped that scenario around, kept the Tacky Chop and put an LP in place of the Bryce High Speed, and every once in a while hit a simple ball with the LP, without learning anything new, your level might go up 200-300 points. So that would be a way of winning more without improving.

However, from my perspective, if what you are asking is not about winning more; but instead is about about improving your technique, then improving your technique may largely be about learning to spin the hell out of the ball on your topspin shots. Learning to loop. Learning to loop everything. Learning to loop with both FH and BH. Learning to loop with MASSIVE spin. That is a hard change to make for someone who is habituated to flat hitting for 25 years. But that is the direction in which better technique lives.

If your game remains flat hitting, there is no need to change the equipment. Because the Sardius blade is great for doing the slapadelic. You do not need dwell time to smack the ball.

However, if you were talking about improving technique and learning how to loop from both wings, then you want rubbers that are not quite as fast as Bryce Speed and that get more spin. Maybe Donic Baracuda; maybe Tibhar Evolution ELS. And you would want a much much much much slower blade. Like a Korbel.

So, if you are asking about how to improve your technique, get something else and learn to spin the heck out of all topspin shots. Learn to loop everything.

If you just want to win a few more games and matches or simply want to beat this one opponent, you can just keep trying. Eventually it may happen. You can change tactics. Or, you can throw a disruptive surface on the side you don't usually use and throw in a shot from that rubber every once in a while.

suds79
04-16-2019, 01:19 PM
Yeah I'm with NL on this one. Especially the part of the TT cycle.

You work on your game. You get in your 40s and up and all of a sudden there's a young buck who is closing the gap on you or you one you already can't beat.

I'll just be real. Chances of you ever catching him are pretty slim. He's going to improve at a rate faster than you and he's coming into his athletic prime. The modern game is just designed for agressive players. So you play semiller grip and by your own words mostly push. Well if you run into someone who loops backspin really well, you're going to feel like they're the hammer and you're the nail and you're trying to block really spiny loops coming in.

The good news is that at 1100, you have a lot of room to grow. But it'll require things that as a 40 year old is hard to do. I know this story all to well. I'm 40 myself and have two young girls. Working full time and family, I just don't have the time, nor really want to, put in 15 hours a week or traveling to some camp all in the name of being able to beat some young kid.

I'll leave you with this. The good news is that you're still plenty young and you can be really good at this game at an older age. But this sport is all about time put in. How many hours a week are you playing? What are the quality of opponents you're playing? etc.

I myself just try to enjoy the ride and that works for me. I'm not putting pressure on myself to improve. Just play & have fun if you're not a serious, traveling tournament player. When you see those young bucks and can beat them? Pour it on them. Relish that while you can because generally their time is coming when you'll no longer be able to beat them. ;)


_______________________
Later post edit:

As i was thinking about it though, if you're a Seemiller player, I don't understand why you're playing Butterly Tack Chop on your backhand.

I probably would play some sort of Long Pips as that'll likely give many players at your level fits. The spinner the player or the spinner the serves, the better. Many players unfamiliar with Long Pips simply hate it and struggle to figure it out. Your young buck you play might be completely unfamiliar with them which would most likely gift you a few wins until he begins to figure them out... That is assuming you know how to use them.

I'd also watch a lot of video of Dan Seemiller play and try to understand tactically why he does certain things.

IMO long pips is better than anti-spin though. Anti IMO just seems to deaden the ball somewhat. So looping that is easy (as everything you loop is just vs a somewhat deadish ball) where as if you were to get a high reversal LP, that can cause people to really hesitate vs that.

Also, if you don't feel comfortable looping backspin as you've said you push a lot, vs backspin, a Long Pip bump (which actually returns a weird topspin ball) to opponents can force them to either miss or sometimes mistakenly push that ball not knowing it's actually topspin. Then it's a pop up and you kill that for the point.

The beauty of having long pips on one side is now vs backspin, you get to choose what you return to the opponent. You want to send back to them backspin? Then push with your inverted rubber as you normally do. But would you like to switch it up and send back a weird attacking ball that's topspin? No problem. Learn how to do the Long pip bump (see my blog post below). Now you've become much less predictable.

That's what I'd recommend. But playing long pips takes some practice. There are rules to the type of shots you play. I don't really play Long Pips anymore so no longer maintain this blog but the rules or ideas of what to do vs certain spins still apply.

http://chroniclesofgossima.blogspot.com/2016/09/the-rules-with-long-pips-close-to-table.html

suds79
04-16-2019, 02:08 PM
Also for your reference, outside of watching a lot of Dan Seemiller, you should also watch Eric Boggan.

They both play the same setup. Inverted attacking, anti-spin for the weird. IMO when you play an unconventional style like seemiller is, or any style where you hit with one side of the paddle 90% of the time (single wing old-school penholders), you might as well inject some weird into your game on that other side. The Anti or Long Pips will allow you to do that.

Here's Eric:
Black - Inverted
Red - Anti

Note he twiddles. So does Dan. Start practicing at home while you're watching TV, just have the paddle in your hand and twiddle over & over. It'll get really quick in no time flat.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imjd9bNhQfM

NextLevel
04-16-2019, 02:34 PM
Also for your reference, outside of watching a lot of Dan Seemiller, you should also watch Eric Boggan.

They both play the same setup. Inverted attacking, anti-spin for the weird. IMO when you play an unconventional style like seemiller is, or any style where you hit with one side of the paddle 90% of the time (single wing old-school penholders), you might as well inject some weird into your game on that other side. The Anti or Long Pips will allow you to do that.

Here's Eric:
Black - Inverted
Red - Anti

Note he twiddles. So does Dan. Start practicing at home while you're watching TV, just have the paddle in your hand and twiddle over & over. It'll get really quick in no time flat.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imjd9bNhQfM

Great stuff. If he is willing to figure out LP or MP by himself, you have given him the best response. A bit hard without a coach but not impossible.

Der_Echte
04-16-2019, 03:20 PM
I thought everyone that played with semiller grip played with anti? if the OP want to continue with this grip maybe he should try that. It is proably hard to get power with backhand with this grip so i think it is very important to be safe, have good placement and variation. So maybe it is best to use anti? or a medium pips?

Lula... the Seemiller grip allows a very loose wrist before impact and can really whip it on bh... in a short space... might be easier to play over the table on bh with that grip.

Also very easy to counter topspin on bh with that grip.

There is no middle with that grip... so a ball hit hard at your middle is an easy and surprisingly natural counterloop or counter hit opportunity... very quick to get the shot into action.

A seemiller grip player who is fundamentally sound is a sticky tough opponent at all levels... except maybe elite amateur level.

Most players instincts are to jam the opponents middle real fast... against a solid seemiller grip player, this is only gunna get you under real pressure real quick. It is a fast way to get into trouble.

At all levels below elite, a solid seemiller grip player can do some serious damage until you figure them out.

As for the rubber, one can play a strong game with whatever material... pips or 2x inverted.

The old dudes with touch and pips can be real tricky too, but there are many offensive powerhouse players using 2x inverted and this grip.


Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

FruitLoop
04-16-2019, 03:47 PM
Danny Seemiller has a good podcast with Ben Larcombe where he discusses the development of the grip and also tactics.

Lula
04-16-2019, 08:20 PM
Any videos of players using this grip on youtube? except semiller and boggan. Would be interesting to see how different everyone plays. Still have a hard time seeing that these guys can play offensive good with the backhand.

NextLevel
04-16-2019, 08:37 PM
The backhand is like a penhold backhand. You can see it from the way Boggan blocks. The shots in first point in the match against Dubina are backhands. The anti is for variation, usually to try to block the ball short to being the opponent in or to maintain position at the table. It is not a big part of the Seemiller game at the higher levels unless the Seemiller player is in trouble.

Loopadoop
04-18-2019, 04:37 AM
Any videos of players using this grip on youtube? except semiller and boggan. Would be interesting to see how different everyone plays. Still have a hard time seeing that these guys can play offensive good with the backhand.

Go to North Little Rock Table Tennis Group timeline page on Facebook for last 2-4 posts, watch the nightmare video.