High throw vs low throw rubber (high / low arc) thoughts

[Der_Echte]

Thank DTop Spirit for meez.

BTW, on OOAK, all U gotta do is mention hiz screen name in a post and he appears faster than ghost.

 

[Der_Echte]

Ryu Seung Min? No, I think that was Ruta Paskauskiene . Gotta go.

OK, maybe we say...

Oh, there is Thomas Mueller over there... Gotta go.

Thomas Mueller is like the modern day "Der Bomber" of German Football.

 

[DTopSpirit]

Hiya Der-Echte - you never know when I'll pop up...

Just finished reading through this thread and I think I need a cup of tea and a lie down now...

As the great Inigo Montoya would say. "Loop? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

I was thinking of attempting to write a few explanations myself about what has been discussed in this thread, but in the end I think I will stick to my policy of not engaging with people who are on table tennis forums to fight instead of learn.

Cheers,
Greg

 

[Der_Echte]

Thank DTop Spirit for meez.

BTW, on OOAK, all U gotta do is mention hiz screen name in a post and he appears faster than ghost.

See, even on TTD, he shows up faster than fast.

 

[Der_Echte]

See, even on TTD, he shows up faster than fast.

DTop is Wize and already legend in several places, plus he got a totally AWESUM post to like rate.

I got an amazing like rate of one like per three posts, but DTop tops me with a THREE like per ONE post rate haha.

 

[NextLevel]

Okay. That is pretty darn funny.


Sent from my Phone using Tapatalk

The Korean flavor was perfect.

 

[NextLevel]

Hiya Der-Echte - you never know when I'll pop up...

Just finished reading through this thread and I think I need a cup of tea and a lie down now...

As the great Inigo Montoya would say. "Loop? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

I was thinking of attempting to write a few explanations myself about what has been discussed in this thread, but in the end I think I will stick to my policy of not engaging with people who are on table tennis forums to fight instead of learn.

Cheers,
Greg

Ah, so that's where PNatchwey gets his inspiration - The Princess Bride - he thinks I (or we) committed a crime against his family! Meet the real Pnatchwey and see why our arguments have no effect on him!

 

[Persistence TT]

OK, idiots. If I just slapped the ball why doesn't it go into the net? If I really stopped the spin of the ball as stupid carl suggested on the other thread I would need to apply a downward force on the ball to stop the spin. If I match the spin of the ball with the tangential speed of the paddle I don't stop or change the spin of the ball. No downward or upward force is applied to the ball. If I hit the ball flat while moving the paddle up to match the spin of the ball it goes back as shown in the video. Now what part don't you idiots understand? There is too much back spin on the ball to close the paddle much if at all. So yes, it may look like a slap but the ball is going back with all the extreme spin hit had before I hit it. I was trying not to add or subtract too much spin from the ball because then I would be applying a vertical force that would cause the ball to go down into the net or long.

Now stupid carl should explain how the spin of the ball stops when lifting chopped balls. I am waiting. If the rest of you aren't waiting then you are as stupid as carl.

You try too much. relax

 

[Suga D]

Hiya Der-Echte - you never know when I'll pop up...

Just finished reading through this thread and I think I need a cup of tea and a lie down now...

As the great Inigo Montoya would say. "Loop? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

I was thinking of attempting to write a few explanations myself about what has been discussed in this thread, but in the end I think I will stick to my policy of not engaging with people who are on table tennis forums to fight instead of learn.

Cheers,
Greg

This is so nice,
it's just gotta be posted twice...

That cup of tea and lie down part just won't get out of my head anymore. I guess more people feel that way.

 

[Pnachtwey]

I am still here.

 

[Der_Echte]

I am still here.

 

[Suga D]

I am still here.

Good, i absolutely do not feel like argueing, but sadly you actually still didn't answer to this from the other thread...

So 1nce again...

Man Carl, you are a real patient and positive thinkin' guy.
If i had to rate your comment it'd be ten out of ten. I've got nothing to add to that.

PNachtwey: since when calling people names became fashion again? I think either you or me have missed a couple of lessons in life. This might work with people who work for you, but in a discussion on a forum, the effect you want to get from that will actually do the opposite.
I hope people who work with or for you don't have to take this, 'cause it's so much 20th century.
It is proven fact, that workers will be the most productive, if they feel good at work. Ask yourself: do you feel good if someone calls you names??
So far that attitude issue.
Well anyway, carl's suggestions can't be topped. Just shoot new videos and prove everyone wrong or learn how to loop properly.
Then there shouldn't be need to call others names anymore....

It must feel pretty lonely in your world being the only smart person surrounded by us idiots...
So why not enlighten us idiots??

So one more chance:
Here, Mr. Pnachtwey, we made this one for you. It was actually just a test of one club members new GoPro.
We placed it at the net, while my buddy and me were doin' a Falkenberg Drill.
Well this is my buddy. He wasn't even swingin' fully. But we slowed it down at the right point (i hope).
Just watch how he 'grabs' the ball and spins it.

Do you actually see a slight difference to what you've been doing?? I really hope so, otherwise you might need new glasses.
I don't wanna show off but just hope you get it this time, what everybody else is seeing. (This isn't me anyway.
I was the one blockin')

@Baal: does this dude look familiar?

 

[Pnachtwey]

Good, i absolutely do not feel like argueing, but sadly you actually still didn't answer to this from the other thread...

So 1nce again...

The gloves were off as soon as UpsideDownCarl said I was delusional. I am not delusional. The balls were going over the net. UpsideDownCarl said the ball stops spinning when looping back chopped balls. He never could explain that. He is the delusional one. What is just as disappointing me is that no one else corrected UpsideDownCarl's delusion. Are all of you just as delusional? Anyone can see the balls were going over the net matching the spin on the ball and the ball had severe back spin. I wasn't closing my paddle. I would have had to swing even faster if I did that. Can any of you calculated how much faster? I can. I agree this was no "la qiu or pull ball". qiu is pronounced like cho. Yes the ball was hitting my paddle perpendicularly or normal to the paddle. If I hit the ball at the top of the bounce the ball would go back horizontally. You can see in the video that the balls were going back horizontally plus or minus a little bit. I was really trying to keep the paddle vertical or neutral and just match the spin of the ball. If I do that I can return chopped balls with any rubber or even a sand paper blade. If I do that then my paddle is not applying any tangential force that would make the ball go up, or more importantly, down.

I am very dissapointed that no one challenged UpsideDownCarl on his statement about stopping the spin. I don't see how anybody could call my stroke a slap. I can show all of you a person that slaps back spins and fails

Our strokes are not the same.

Did you really look at my video? Don't you see the upwards stroke? If I match the spin the ball will go back with lots of top spin. You or UpsideDownCarl can't explain where the spin goes. If I killed the spin as claimed I would have had to apply a downwards force that would hit the ball into table or net.

I am still waiting for answers.

I only visit this site a couple of times a week and I really don't like arguing either. It would be much better if every TT player had a PhD in physics and knew and was brave enough to challenge the TT myths. It would be better if people understood the Tieffenbacher article on the ITTF website. It would be better if people understand spin from the articles written by Rodney Cross from the University of Sydney. Ok, so you just want to play. Fine but if you criticize me without proof expect to get blasted back.

What I don't understand is that a few of you figured out who I am quickly. Knowing that you really should listen first and criticize later only if you have proof and not opinion or TT myths to back you up.
If you think I am full of sh!t then do a search for
pnachtwey control theory
pnachtwey motion control
A few post back I mention that I was in China and the center of attention at a conference for metal industry engineers in Wuxi close to Shanghai. "No brag, just fact" Look that phrase up on the internet. It is almost as old as I am.

I am in the center front row of the last picture. I was the lead off and primary speaker at a metals conference. Yes, you can see I have a translator. My Chinese isn't that good yet. Yes, I do sign autographs on my design guide that has been translated into Chinese. I have also written magazine articles that have been translated into Chinese. I am on the Chinese engineering forums.

Yes, I play TT in China. When we, my translator and I, play were are better than all but the best there and the coaches. The last time I was there a couple of weeks ago the coach told her best player to play me. He was suppose to challenge me to a match but he didn't because he was having problems with my long pips during warm up. I was clueless as to what was really going on but my practice partner/translator told me later.

Have a good day but try to separate myth from fact.

 

[DTopSpirit]

The gloves were off as soon as UpsideDownCarl said I was delusional. I am not delusional. The balls were going over the net. UpsideDownCarl said the ball stops spinning when looping back chopped balls. He never could explain that. He is the delusional one. What is just as disappointing me is that no one else corrected UpsideDownCarl's delusion. Are all of you just as delusional? Anyone can see the balls were going over the net matching the spin on the ball and the ball had severe back spin. I wasn't closing my paddle. I would have had to swing even faster if I did that. Can any of you calculated how much faster? I can. I agree this was no "la qiu or pull ball". qiu is pronounced like cho. Yes the ball was hitting my paddle perpendicularly or normal to the paddle. If I hit the ball at the top of the bounce the ball would go back horizontally. You can see in the video that the balls were going back horizontally plus or minus a little bit. I was really trying to keep the paddle vertical or neutral and just match the spin of the ball. If I do that I can return chopped balls with any rubber or even a sand paper blade. If I do that then my paddle is not applying any tangential force that would make the ball go up, or more importantly, down.
<snip>
Did you really look at my video? Don't you see the upwards stroke? If I match the spin the ball will go back with lots of top spin. You or UpsideDownCarl can't explain where the spin goes. If I killed the spin as claimed I would have had to apply a downwards force that would hit the ball into table or net.
<snip>
I am still waiting for answers.

Have a good day but try to separate myth from fact.

I have read the above post a couple of times and I must admit I have no idea what Pnachtwey is talking about. The words are in English, I understand them individually but the way they are put together I just can't seem to work out what is going on.

This is what I think I understand:

* The robot is sending the ball with huge amounts of backspin, which is why it is far away from the table, since it is a one head robot that must send the ball fast to get a lot of spin.
* The ball comes high over the net.
* The stroke is upward

And here is where I get lost:

* The balls are going over the net matching the spin on the ball. Do you mean the racket contact is cancelling out the spin, giving a no spin ball as a result? Or something else?

* If the racket is kept vertical or neutral, and the spin on the ball is matched, then any chopped balls can be returned with any rubber or even a sandpaper blade. Do you mean that any racket can be held vertically, and swung upwards fast enough to kill the heavy backspin on the ball? Or something else? Because I think with sand paper and some rubbers you would have to hold the blade open to get the ball over the net.

I guess I'm not understanding the idea of matching the spin on the ball, around which everything else seems to hinge. I'm thinking of matching the spin as in exactly cancelling it out, but I think Pnachtwey might mean something else, perhaps like matching the spin so that the angle of the ball coming off his rubber is enough to put the ball over the net, or something like that.

The last part of the post mentions that if the spin is matched the ball will go back with lots of topspin. This seems opposite to what I thought the use of matching is from earlier on was, so I guess it doesn't mean cancelling out the spin after all.

So I guess all I can conclude is that the term matching obviously doesn't mean what I think it means.

There is a disconnect somewhere here, and I don't think I can figure out what it is until things get simplified down a little, and terms like "matching spin" get explained a little more clearly. At the moment it seems to mean two different things at the same time.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

DTop, I think that what means is this. He has this ferociously heavy underspin ball and his racket speed is the same speed in the same direction as the underspin on the ball as he brushes past it so that:

1) he is looping the ball, and
2) it is going back over the net the other way with spin that is at least equal to the underspin that was coming in at him.

My question for Pnachtwey would be:

If you are doing what you say you are doing, how come your return shots have so little spin? If you were really doing what you claim and not something else, how come those shots don't have massive topspin? What is causing your shots to have so much less spin than the massive amount of spin coming at you? What is stopping the spin on the ball, or really, slowing it down so much?

See you keep talking about other people answering your questions. But all your questions have already been answered many times. However you haven't answered any of the questions that you have been asked.

Or, better yet, make those new videos where we can see your whole stroke and an angle where we can see your racket face so we can actually see your contact point and exactly what you are doing. For the videos, 2 angles the side angle but with your whole body in the video and one from the opposite side, like the angle in Suga D's video or your serve and receive video where we can see your blade face from head on. Then we will all be able to see exactly what you are doing. And, hopefully, you will be able to see it too.

And, in addition to that video with you taking the ball high above the net and doing what you have already done in your first robot video, it would be interesting to see you try to make another video of the same thing with a contact point below the net so we can see you arc the ball over the net and onto the table. That one should answer all questions.

The key points would be the two angles, one from the side but with your whole body in the video; and the other from the opposite side where we can see your blade face on contact.

Slow motion on those should show how, with your racket open, you are driving into the ball instead of brushing past the ball which means that the tangential speed that you are talking about may not actually be there.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

And, Pnachtwey, you keep bringing this up but probably pretty much nobody has any idea what this refers to, I might as well bring it up and address this issue:

UpsideDownCarl said the ball stops spinning when looping back chopped balls. He never could explain that.

You keep saying this wasn't answered but it was. And very nicely.

Pnachtwey, you are right about the fact that when you topspin a backspin ball, the ball will always rotate (in the referential of the floor), but Carl is not an engineer and what he describes can be wrong if taken litteraly but it is so true when taken from a lambda tt player with a very good feeling.

Carl is describing his feeling, he has the feeling that when he executes a very good stroke, he can "grab" the ball. As I explained, here is just the feeling of being able to deform the rubber, maximizing dwell time and spin, the feeling you get when you have good arm/wirst accelaration. He wanted to explain that there is much more than your simple way to see physics in table tennis and he's done it based on his feeling (and I'm sure he has a pretty good one, because is table tennis "intuition" based on his feeling actually matches very often the physics, even if it's not 100% accurate, but dude......Carl is not a physics nerd and an engineer like I am, or you are, he tries to describe his FEEL with mere words, thats all).

I accept that explanation. I have thought about it. Perhaps, as the bat speed accelerates, and on contact, reaches the speed of the spin, and then surpasses it, and as you get the ball to sink into the topsheet and sponge just that amount to cause the a the right amount of deformation to the topsheet and sponge, the spin of the ball is not moving in relationship to the speed of the racket (since they are the same at the point when the racket's tangential speed matches the speed of the spin on the ball) and then the topsheet grabs the ball as the rubber deforms.

But, I think Killerspintt's explanation is enough.

And please note, Pnachtwey, he is an engineer and he gives plenty of pretty good explanations of how you are not doing what you think you are doing. Just read some of what he has already written:

@Pnachtwey

If youthinks that he is looping the robot ball, clearly there is someting mistaken about looping. Once again it's only because the contact point is ultra high that the ball is going over the net (I could get this beckspin ball past the net even without moving my racket, yup with a static racket, it would be ez, same are some adjustments anyone here will be able to falt hit the ball, you just have to adjust the racket angle).
It really looks like flat hits on underspin ball, the ball is going down right after the ball contact. With the same technique it will be impossible to loop this ball with a contact point under the net.

The answer has already been given to you : because the incomming ball is ultra high, far far over the net. I wonder how a great ingenieur like you could not figure this out, I mean.........it's pretty obvious. Now just open your eyes, see the spin of your balls (once thet hit the net or once they hit the wall behind) : there is NO SPIN. I wonder if in your life you have ever seen what a heavy topspin is doing if it is stopped by the net or a wall, I bet you have never seen it : the ball keeps spinning ALOT (far far far far more than your balls which really are close to no spin at all).

Same spin from the robot and a contact point under the net : here is the real test for your FH "topspin" (I shouldn't call it topspin). And you will figure it out : you are not doing what you think you are doing.

I wonder why you have never even thought about responding to him.

But I trully think you lack feeling, with more feeling you will understand far better what Carl is saying, feel is the alpha of table tennis, the omega is the touch and I think it is very very difficult to get a good technique without good touch and feeling.

To me, it looks like you are wanting to overcome your lack of feeling and touch by the usage of low grade physics, and judging from the video it doesn't look like this is a good trade for your improvement, for example you think that you are doing topspins against the robot backspin, it's not true, there is no spin in your ball, you can't feel it but you can at least SEE it, your balls have no spin, just watch the video.

Now I understand why you wanted to "expose" the "long/short dwell time myth" on your famous topic, I trully think that you lack touch and FEEL, and into your hand there is no short or long dwell time blade/rubbers/whatever and you trully believe(d ?) it was a myth. But it's not a myth, you just can't feel it.

 

[NextLevel]

So let me help Pnatchwey by simplifying. For those of us who play a lot of TT and actually spin the ball, we tend to do two things:

1. We test the quality of our looping strokes by taking the ball at heights below the net as this is when looping is most critical (above the net, I may loop, but more often than not I drive the ball hard, either flat or with topspin and this is not a critical test of looping). The ball should dip violently on the other other side if we loop it properly. In fact, those of us with good topspin strokes have all experienced the moments when we think our ball is going long and suddenly lands on the table because it took a sharp drop from a high height because of an outrageous amount of spin.

2. We look at our ball after it hits the table and rolls on the floor to see how much spin it retains. Usually, the ball is fizzing with spin on these shots, and rolls around before coming to a halt. I use similar observations to see how much spin I am generating on my serves.

So Pnatchwey, your ball is not passing the two tests listed above. If you could redo the video and show that it passes at least one of these tests, people would take you much more seriously.

 

[Persistence TT]

A few post back I mention that I was in China and the center of attention at a conference for metal industry engineers in Wuxi close to Shanghai. "No brag, just fact" Look that phrase up on the internet. It is almost as old as I am.

 

[Persistence TT]

Well f*** me Hose. This is pure bragging not a fact. Its not even a proven scientific phenomenon to prove you are "right" and we are "Wrong". The metal conference is irrelevant with table tennis, stop acting like a kiddo you're 40 + for gods sake.

You have your facts twisted in many aspects of table tennis. You even described as "myths" some proven facts of TT and examined them in a very narrow minded platform just to prove your self as "correct".

You even said that thicker rubbers are not faster or spinnier than thinner ones and that we are all affected from the companies propaganda and we dont know nothing about TT. You are insulting everyone here that asks you simple and valid questions from day 1. OBVIOUSLY your problem is not about TT it is something else and you also know that. Get along with yourself FIRST and then I am sure we can discuss it like grown ups not a bunch of monkeys.

I saw you playing in a video and it was clear to me that you dont have the ability/experience to correlate/connect between theory and true action. You can brag for yourself as much as you want as an engineer or a TT "wiseguy" but you must understand that this wont give you any respect and for sure it doesnt mean that your claims about TT are VALID.

I could also brag about my junior medals and my "success" stories in table tennis this doesnt mean I am the ONE that people should look up to for information or training tips . If you believe you have knowledge about table tennis then just SHARE it and discuss it dont try to ENFORCE IT. no one will listen to you . If you havent understood it yet, most of the users here treat you as a joke and you still insist on your theories and insults.

Do whatever you like just remember, if you do the same thing and get the same unwanted results, obviously you must change course of direction and plan of actions to get different and eventually wanted results.

I highly doubt you will even read my post carefully and without being biased but when you are relaxed, just a think about it a bit. Maybe just maybe some of the things users including me have told you or asked you here (before the whole conversation has gone derrailed) are worth asking yourself about the validity of your theories

Peace and love, George

 

[Suga D]

The gloves were off as soon as UpsideDownCarl said I was delusional. I am not delusional. The balls were going over the net. UpsideDownCarl said the ball stops spinning when looping back chopped balls. He never could explain that. He is the delusional one. What is just as disappointing me is that no one else corrected UpsideDownCarl's delusion. Are all of you just as delusional? Anyone can see the balls were going over the net matching the spin on the ball and the ball had severe back spin. I wasn't closing my paddle. I would have had to swing even faster if I did that. Can any of you calculated how much faster? I can. I agree this was no "la qiu or pull ball". qiu is pronounced like cho. Yes the ball was hitting my paddle perpendicularly or normal to the paddle. If I hit the ball at the top of the bounce the ball would go back horizontally. You can see in the video that the balls were going back horizontally plus or minus a little bit. I was really trying to keep the paddle vertical or neutral and just match the spin of the ball. If I do that I can return chopped balls with any rubber or even a sand paper blade. If I do that then my paddle is not applying any tangential force that would make the ball go up, or more importantly, down.

I am very dissapointed that no one challenged UpsideDownCarl on his statement about stopping the spin. I don't see how anybody could call my stroke a slap. I can show all of you a person that slaps back spins and fails

Our strokes are not the same.

Did you really look at my video? Don't you see the upwards stroke? If I match the spin the ball will go back with lots of top spin. You or UpsideDownCarl can't explain where the spin goes. If I killed the spin as claimed I would have had to apply a downwards force that would hit the ball into table or net.

I am still waiting for answers.

I only visit this site a couple of times a week and I really don't like arguing either. It would be much better if every TT player had a PhD in physics and knew and was brave enough to challenge the TT myths. It would be better if people understood the Tieffenbacher article on the ITTF website. It would be better if people understand spin from the articles written by Rodney Cross from the University of Sydney. Ok, so you just want to play. Fine but if you criticize me without proof expect to get blasted back.

What I don't understand is that a few of you figured out who I am quickly. Knowing that you really should listen first and criticize later only if you have proof and not opinion or TT myths to back you up.
If you think I am full of sh!t then do a search for
pnachtwey control theory
pnachtwey motion control
A few post back I mention that I was in China and the center of attention at a conference for metal industry engineers in Wuxi close to Shanghai. "No brag, just fact" Look that phrase up on the internet. It is almost as old as I am.
View attachment 8024View attachment 8025View attachment 8026
I am in the center front row of the last picture. I was the lead off and primary speaker at a metals conference. Yes, you can see I have a translator. My Chinese isn't that good yet. Yes, I do sign autographs on my design guide that has been translated into Chinese. I have also written magazine articles that have been translated into Chinese. I am on the Chinese engineering forums.

Yes, I play TT in China. When we, my translator and I, play were are better than all but the best there and the coaches. The last time I was there a couple of weeks ago the coach told her best player to play me. He was suppose to challenge me to a match but he didn't because he was having problems with my long pips during warm up. I was clueless as to what was really going on but my practice partner/translator told me later.

Have a good day but try to separate myth from fact.

Hey Mr. Pnachtwey, thanks for your reaction.

Well first of all i like to say, that this has been by far your best post so far...

Why do i say that? 'Cause this time no name calling was proceeded. To me this is a first step to de-escalate situations.

Now the statements made by TTFrenzy, Carl and NextLevel cover pretty much, what you've been asking...

So to make it short, i don't think anybody questions your understanding of physics, but what is questionable is your emotional understanding.
You see, although ones brain work is important in Tabletennis, it's pretty much like Killerspintt wrote:
the feeling is the alpha - the touch is the omega.
It's a very intuitive game, where things happen so fast, that if you start thinkin consciously, you will find yourself pickin' up the ball lying behind you, 'cause the game's too fast to think consciously, so it must happen subconsciously.
Therefore you need to train yourself how to react the right way even under pressure. (Well that's what most of the good players i know do)
And it is a matter of feeling, but that's nothing your body can't learn. You just have to let it happen...

You actually wrote it yourself: It is not a pull ball what you were doing in that video.

I agree this was no "la qiu or pull ball". qiu is pronounced like cho. Yes the ball was hitting my paddle perpendicularly or normal

But when we're speaking of loops we actually mean the 'pull ball' and not a drive.

But in your vid you have been 'driving' through the ball, and as others have mentioned before: just challenge yourself and let the ball bounce a little deeper, or let someone feed you low bouncing backspin multiballs. If you do the same technique like before it probably won't be very different to that guy from the video you posted above and most balls will land in the net if you don't adjust your technique.
Maybe you can learn a thing or two.You seem to be intelligent enough.

Did you see that slight curve the ball took in the video i've posted. Maybe it wasn't that fair to compare, 'cause his USATT rating might be about 1,000 points above yours. He has an old score of about 2300 (which was from the year 2k1and has been rather rated a little too high)

But look at the differences to the way your balls fly and the way his does...

Or just prove us all wrong by shooting new vids shot from better angles.

Have a nice weekend everybody