high and low throw rubbers

This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
May 2015
3,238
3,924
27,424
Read 5 reviews
Are you saying it is clear that your racket is going low to high in that video where you only see the racket after it hits the ball?

Oh, okay, I see. Thanks. You are right, it is clear and obvious to see that in that video where you can't see your stroke, that you are swinging, uh, did you say, low to high? Is that what I am supposed to say.....boss? Oh yeah. You aren't paying me. I don't have to tell you what you want to hear. Okay, sarcasm over.

And in the other video where your stroke can be seen you are generally hitting the ball flat, with the racket faced open and then after contact you pronate your forearm so your wrist faces down and often your elbow goes up a bit. Classic flat hitting style.

But the answers to all your questions have actually already been given. Your contact is direct. There is almost no "tangential" as you like to call it. If you look at your serves you can see it too. Your racket there is faced up for backspin but you hit into the ball instead of brushing and pulling past the ball (tangential, that is what you mean by that term, right). With both your "topspin" stroke and your "backspin" serve, if there was a proper amount of "tangential" your racket would start further back from the ball and end up past the ball which is why in Chinese the word for a loop would literally translate as: "pulling past".

In the end, we are all better off if you learn to do this so you can FEEL what we all seem to be able to see which you don't seem to be understanding.

Here is a project for you. And I do think this could help you and actually get you to be a better player and a better person. I know, perhaps I am a fool for thinking someone can grow up and change. But I can hope.

Make a few new videos. Make one from the side like you have already done but include your whole body and your stroke in the video so the mechanics of your stroke can be seen. Make another from the same angle as the angle you have in the serve and receive video so you can see the blade face on contact. Make the videos with a better quality camera. I have heard you talk about having good video cameras. Make it good enough quality so the images can be stopped frame by frame so you can grab images of the exact point of contact and see your blade face's angle. I actually think that could help you.

In the serve and receive video, one thing I noticed is that, you are actually much better on the lower balls. The ones that are lower your contact is much better. And you get some spin there.

Try one more video. Make the same spin and speed from the Newgy machine but make your contact point below the net. Make it so we can see your stroke: I would make that one from the same two angles. Just try it and see what happens. There really is a reason why so many people are seeing the same thing.

By the way, it is true that there are a couple of balls that go back with some arc and a bit more spin. But I would still say those balls do not have enough spin to call them a loop. The balls are fairly slow. And they do not arc enough or soon enough for how slow they are. And they do not kick the way a real loop should.

If you look at NextLevel's loops again, there is a lot of power from his body in those loops. They have a lot of pace. And they still arc onto the table and kick. When a ball is going fast and has a lot of power behind it and it arcs like that, there has to be a high level of spin on the ball. And when you look at some of his matches, when he loops, his opponent often has trouble tracking the ball because of the trajectory of that arc with that speed. Those are pretty decent loops. There is a very big difference. And I have to give it to NextLevel for showing how, with injuries and real limitations he has gotten to be pretty darn good for a guy with such bad knees that make it hard for him to move, and to get low. Both of those things that your knees, when they are good, help you do, make getting good at table tennis much easier when your knees do them well.

With a different attitude and on line personality, people actually might be telling you positive stuff about yourself. But that doesn't usually happen when you are calling everyone idi_ts, as_holes and st_pid, as frequently as you do.

But, here, here is some material for you to ruminate on:

















We are actually all seeing something that you seem not to understand. If instead of thinking everyone else is wrong, you tried to understand what we are seeing, it would actually help you improve your level. In the end, I actually think that would be pretty cool.

There is a real reason why this last one is so funny:


Man Carl, you are a real patient and positive thinkin' guy.
If i had to rate your comment it'd be ten out of ten. I've got nothing to add to that.

PNachtwey: since when calling people names became fashion again? I think either you or me have missed a couple of lessons in life. This might work with people who work for you, but in a discussion on a forum, the effect you want to get from that will actually do the opposite.
I hope people who work with or for you don't have to take this, 'cause it's so much 20th century.
It is proven fact, that workers will be the most productive, if they feel good at work. Ask yourself: do you feel good if someone calls you names??
So far that attitude issue.
Well anyway, carl's suggestions can't be topped. Just shoot new videos and prove everyone wrong or learn how to loop properly.
Then there shouldn't be need to call others names anymore....

It must feel pretty lonely in your world being the only smart person surrounded by us idiots...
So why not enlighten us idiots?? :p
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
May 2015
3,238
3,924
27,424
Read 5 reviews
I know, Liten, but sometimes it's so hard to resist.
So one more chance:
Here, Mr. Pnachtweyh, we made this one for you. It was actually just a test of one club members new GoPro.
We placed it at the net, while my buddy and me were doin' a Falkenberg Drill.
Well this is my buddy. He wasn't even swingin' fully. But we slowed it down at the right point (i hope).
Just watch how he 'grabs' the ball and spins it.


Do you actually see a slight difference to what you've been doing?? I really hope so, otherwise you might need new glasses.
I don't wanna show off but just hope you get it this time, what everybody else is seeing. (This isn't me anyway. :) I was the one blockin')

@Baal: does this dude look familiar? ;)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: TurboZ and BeGo
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,172
17,750
54,907
Read 11 reviews
@ Suga D. That is a perfect way to show the contact and the spin. That sort of suspended animation moment where it looks like the racket is moving past the ball and then the ball is spun and propelled forward from the deformation of the rubber. Nice job on the idea of how to show it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • Like
Reactions: BeGo and Suga D
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
May 2015
3,238
3,924
27,424
Read 5 reviews
@ Suga D. That is a perfect way to show the contact and the spin. That sort of suspended animation moment where it looks like the racket is moving past the ball and then the ball is spun and propelled forward from the deformation of the rubber. Nice job on the idea of how to show it.


Sent from my atari 2600 using rotationtalk

Thanks for the credit. But to be fair, it was my friend's Idea. :) I'll pass it on. He'll be glad to hear.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Dec 2011
169
350
721
So I know absolutely nothing about physics and probably risk embarrassing myself with this comment, but to be honest I can't even wrap my head around what this thread is even about. If someone is looping at me with heavy topspin and I block with a completely stationary racket, it is obvious that I can manipulate the ball by merely changing the amount of grip pressure that I am using. If I grip the paddle tighter, the ball will most likely go out. If I soften my grip, I can keep the ball on the table. We have all experienced this phenomenon.

So then, are people arguing that this type of manipulation cannot be reproduced on a shot where the racket is in motion, such as on a loop?? To me, it seems inherently obvious that the speed at which the racket is moving is not the only contributing factor. We could certainly "feel" the ball at the moment of contact on a loop, couldn't we?
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,670
18,281
45,796
Read 17 reviews
So I know absolutely nothing about physics and probably risk embarrassing myself with this comment, but to be honest I can't even wrap my head around what this thread is even about. If someone is looping at me with heavy topspin and I block with a completely stationary racket, it is obvious that I can manipulate the ball by merely changing the amount of grip pressure that I am using. If I grip the paddle tighter, the ball will most likely go out. If I soften my grip, I can keep the ball on the table. We have all experienced this phenomenon.

So then, are people arguing that this type of manipulation cannot be reproduced on a shot where the racket is in motion, such as on a loop?? To me, it seems inherently obvious that the speed at which the racket is moving is not the only contributing factor. We could certainly "feel" the ball at the moment of contact on a loop, couldn't we?

Not sure how long you have been following this whole rigmarole from Pnatchwey which dates back to mytabletennis.net (where he is now banned), but Pnatchwey likes to cite the argument that dwell time is so short that people cannot change it during the shot (likely very true based on knowledge about dwell time and reaction time). However, it seems, like killerspintt, a forum member here points out, that that pnatchwey confuses the fact that you cannot change it during the shot and that it is very short with the claim that shots quality can't be significantly effected by decisions (conscious or subconscious) and strokes to minimize it or maximize it, and that therefore, pnatchwey's game is in part low level for this reason.

I beat Rich DeWitt today for the first time and I would attribute some of that to a better awareness after talking to Der_Echte yesterday of what dwell time does to one's shot when it is combined with grip pressure, which obviously affects racket head acceleration. The effect on the ball is even more interesting and complicated than just making it easier to block. More on this later when I have time to think through some of the related issues. It might take me a while though. I wish I had just caught Der Echte on camera because his demonstration of it using serves and pushes was AMAZING.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
............after talking to Der_Echte yesterday of what dwell time does to one's shot when it is combined with grip pressure, which obviously affects racket head acceleration.

Next Level; did you "talk" on the forum? and if so, can you provide a link, since I'm very interested as well on this topic.

Thanks in advance.

PS: should read better. Notice you mention a live demonstation, so no forum talk. Looking forward to your post on this topic. Perhaps Der Echte can still make some video shootage to support ?
 
Last edited:
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,172
17,750
54,907
Read 11 reviews
Next Level; did you "talk" on the forum? and if so, can you provide a link, since I'm very interested as well on this topic.

Thanks in advance.

PS: should read better. Notice you mention a live demonstation, so no forum talk. Looking forward to your post on this topic. Perhaps Der Echte can still make some video shootage to support ?

What I think you may have missed is that NextLevel, Der_Echte, 42andbackbains, PingPongHolic, SmashFan and I got together and played for several hours at a club in College Point Queens, NY on Saturday. The conversation NextLevel is talking about happened in person. NextLevel took video footage of a lot of the action.

Posts that include footage from our adventure start a few posts down this page and continue to the end of the thread:

http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?8588-Der_Echte-in-NYC/page10

There are also photos and links to video of matches and equipment testing that NextLevel did.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BeGo and NextLevel
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,670
18,281
45,796
Read 17 reviews
Next Level; did you "talk" on the forum? and if so, can you provide a link, since I'm very interested as well on this topic.

Thanks in advance.

PS: should read better. Notice you mention a live demonstation, so no forum talk. Looking forward to your post on this topic. Perhaps Der Echte can still make some video shootage to support ?

If Der_Echte is willing, we can do something for 10-15 mins or so when I see him next. He just runs through his serves and his pushing technique and I am sure we could get him to dummy loop if necessary. I could probably do the pushing and the dummy looping but the serves are way beyond me. If you hear him speak, his internet personality makes so much sense.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,670
18,281
45,796
Read 17 reviews
The main point was simple. If you grip the racket relatively tight and accelerate with wrist snap, you get spin. But if you loosen your grip and accelerate into the ball less, the difference in spin production is significant if you use the same stroke and can get serious spin with your spin stroke. It helps with high toss serving because the relatively small motions make it hard to see whether you are accelerating or not (I think it also explains why many high level servers don't move past the point of contact - they don't want to reveal the acceleration). So rather than being confused, you can have a decent idea when someone's stroke is forced to produce a shot that has high acceleration and must generate spin of some sort. We have another player like this in my club - when the ball is slow, he can push heavy or light, but when the ball has heavy topspin, his options to manipulate it are limited and easier to read.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,670
18,281
45,796
Read 17 reviews
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
Well-Known Member
Nov 2010
3,568
5,934
10,356
Read 8 reviews
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,172
17,750
54,907
Read 11 reviews
Seems like the best explanation I have ever read. Thanks for posting.

I agree with that statement.

By the way, @ NextLevel: one thing I have been told on looping, if you are relaxed on your stroke and apply pressure to the blade face with the thumb and index finger on contact you get a lot more spin. I think that is the kind of stuff you are talking about. I got this from a few different players all well over 2000 and most of them say that comes from technique tips from players from China.

Mark Croitoroo told me to add that same theory to serves for more spin. I don't know that I am up to that yet. Getting more relaxed might be more important as a start for me. :) But I think, timing the hand pressure with the contact is part of that whole issue you are talking about. Mark also showed me how much more stable his blade face was than mine was so that his contact could be much more precise.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,670
18,281
45,796
Read 17 reviews
I agree with that statement.

By the way, @ NextLevel: one thing I have been told on looping, if you are relaxed on your stroke and apply pressure to the blade face with the thumb and index finger on contact you get a lot more spin. I think that is the kind of stuff you are talking about. I got this from a few different players all well over 2000 and most of them say that comes from technique tips from players from China.

Mark Croitoroo told me to add that same theory to serves for more spin. I don't know that I am up to that yet. Getting more relaxed might be more important as a start for me. :) But I think, timing the hand pressure with the contact is part of that whole issue you are talking about. Mark also showed me how much more stable his blade face was than mine was so that his contact could be much more precise.

I think I do that naturally because if you practice serving a lot, it comes to you as you look for ways of generating more spin, but the more interesting part for me is the effect of *not doing it* and being able to control that effect. And to know the situations where you run the risk of your opponent not doing it and feeding you a ball that is different from the ball he would feed you if he did it so you can actually pay more attention to the ball. I think it might also be why my no spin serves are sometimes not as effective as they could be because I probably squeeze the racket more than I should be squeezing it on those serves.
 
  • Like
Reactions: UpSideDownCarl
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,172
17,750
54,907
Read 11 reviews
I think I do that naturally because if you practice serving a lot, it comes to you as you look for ways of generating more spin, but the more interesting part for me is the effect of *not doing it* and being able to control that effect. And to know the situations where you run the risk of your opponent not doing it and feeding you a ball that is different from the ball he would feed you if he did it so you can actually pay more attention to the ball. I think it might also be why my no spin serves are sometimes not as effective as they could be because I probably squeeze the racket more than I should be squeezing it on those serves.

Yep when to not do it is as important as when to do it. I may be doing it as well, but if I am, I am not aware of it. And I am not doing the relax part before the hand pressure part. But, changing the hand pressure to change the spin with the same exact motion is very effective and I told Der_Echte yesterday that I think his serves are pretty high level.
 
Top