European Loop vs Chinese Loop?

[Rajah*]

Chinese/euro loop is NOT NON SENSE, that is skill and technique, a practical application of skills vs other players. Those who play with robot most of the time will will never appreciate what im saying.

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[Pnachtwey]

I would listen to Tony.
Basically he is saying it is all about the ability to execute.

From a geek point of view the ball doesn't care about whether it is being hit by a CN or EU stroke. Only the paddle attitude and speed during contact matter. What happens before contact or after contact doesn't matter to the current stroke but the ability to decelerate right after impact and get back to the ready position makes a big difference to the next stroke. Above there was mention of using the elbow more when close to the table and recovery times must be fast. I agree with this. Far away from the table one has more options because there is more time to react if you can get to the ball.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Didn't this thread die an unhappy death half a year ago? Whose idea was it to resurrect this from the grave? Rajah, I am going to blame you even though you didn't do it. Now think up a good excuse. LOL.

Oh, wait, I know, it must have been because you were being chased by the goon squad and you wanted to confuse them and throw them off your trail. Good work.

 

[Nikoli]

We all know there are 2 types of loops, European and Chinese. However, i always wondered. Is there any advantage of using the European loop compared to Chinese? or using the Chinese loop compared to the European loop? I tend to use the European loop as it seems easier to me and was wondering if i used Chinese loop (as i used to loop chinese style) is there any advantage?

The chinese loop has got everything to do with the rubber itself. Here's the thing, with chinese rubber, when you're close to the table, u can hit early, overcome spin and create your speed better (flatter contact). But when you're far from the table, you don't create speed, but in stead, you brush more to create more spin.

Contradicting to the Euro/Jap rubbers, when you're closed to the table, you don't hit hard (it's very bouncy), but u create friction to create spin. But when you're far from the table, you don't create friction, you create speed.

So there! you can see it clearly, that the chinese way of loop with their rubbers is really a science itself.

Let's give you an example:
A serves underspin to B
B pushes back
A got 2 choices (if using chinese rubbers) : 1- Hit with closed bat angle and create lightning speed, 2- slow loop to create spin (rarely happens)

A got 1 choice (if using Euro/Jap rubbers): 1- Brush the ball as hard as they could to create spin. (this is where Timo's loops get killed alot by the Chinese)

When this happens, Chinese looped ball will be harder to counter, hard to block, hard to punch block. While Euro/Jap way will be easily countered with above mentioned methods.

Another benefits of the Chinese loop, i see very clearly is the straightened arm when they loop. See, with your arm straightened, it's easier for you to loop when the ball is 30 cm, 50 cm, 70 cm even 1 meter ABOVE the table surface level. You can refer to Ma Long's loop when the ball is really high.

The benefit of Euro/Jap loop is the ability to affect right top spin, and left top spin on the top-spin incoming ball when it drops near table surface level (see Timo's). But when the ball gets higher, it's become harder to execute more force and spin on the ball.

If there is anything that makes the Chinese reign TT for the past 20 years, it must've been the Chinese way of looping. And trust me, if you're are 1m85 or taller, please forget this way of looping, your physical condition just don't approve this technique.

By the way, i'm not Chinese. Cheers

 

[GiorgosTT]

If there is anything that makes the Chinese reign TT for the past 20 years, it must've been the Chinese way of looping. And trust me, if you're are 1m85 or taller, please forget this way of looping, your physical condition just don't approve this technique.

But.. but... I'm 1m86 and I want to use that technique...

 

[TTFrenzy]

The chinese loop has got everything to do with the rubber itself. Here's the thing, with chinese rubber, when you're close to the table, u can hit early, overcome spin and create your speed better (flatter contact). But when you're far from the table, you don't create speed, but in stead, you brush more to create more spin.

Contradicting to the Euro/Jap rubbers, when you're closed to the table, you don't hit hard (it's very bouncy), but u create friction to create spin. But when you're far from the table, you don't create friction, you create speed.

So there! you can see it clearly, that the chinese way of loop with their rubbers is really a science itself.

Let's give you an example:
A serves underspin to B
B pushes back
A got 2 choices (if using chinese rubbers) : 1- Hit with closed bat angle and create lightning speed, 2- slow loop to create spin (rarely happens)

A got 1 choice (if using Euro/Jap rubbers): 1- Brush the ball as hard as they could to create spin. (this is where Timo's loops get killed alot by the Chinese)

When this happens, Chinese looped ball will be harder to counter, hard to block, hard to punch block. While Euro/Jap way will be easily countered with above mentioned methods.

Another benefits of the Chinese loop, i see very clearly is the straightened arm when they loop. See, with your arm straightened, it's easier for you to loop when the ball is 30 cm, 50 cm, 70 cm even 1 meter ABOVE the table surface level. You can refer to Ma Long's loop when the ball is really high.

The benefit of Euro/Jap loop is the ability to affect right top spin, and left top spin on the top-spin incoming ball when it drops near table surface level (see Timo's). But when the ball gets higher, it's become harder to execute more force and spin on the ball.

If there is anything that makes the Chinese reign TT for the past 20 years, it must've been the Chinese way of looping. And trust me, if you're are 1m85 or taller, please forget this way of looping, your physical condition just don't approve this technique.

By the way, i'm not Chinese. Cheers

Most of your statements are correct up to a certain point. Wang liqin is 185 and maybe higher. The height of the ball does not make any difference whether you use chinese or euro rubber after all, many chinese loop kill or smash the ball with their tenergy of in their BH by twiddling. Boll's loops are not easy to kill, the chinese make it look easy, they are faster stronger core and legs and have studied boll's game over the years.

In the end there is no better rubber or technique it is a matter of preference,adaptability and effectiveness. If tensor rubbers where the only rubbers existing in TT then the chinese would still dominate the game

 

[NextLevel]

Most of your statements are correct up to a certain point. Wang liqin is 185 and maybe higher. The height of the ball does not make any difference whether you use chinese or euro rubber after all, many chinese loop kill or smash the ball with their tenergy of in their BH by twiddling. Boll's loops are not easy to kill, the chinese make it look easy, they are faster stronger core and legs and have studied boll's game over the years.

In the end there is no better rubber or technique it is a matter of preference,adaptability and effectiveness. If tensor rubbers where the only rubbers existing in TT then the chinese would still dominate the game

To support your point, I think Li Ping uses Euro rubbers on both sides and I remember one year where he was the best Asia vs Europe player.

 

[Nikoli]

Most of your statements are correct up to a certain point. Wang liqin is 185 and maybe higher. The height of the ball does not make any difference whether you use chinese or euro rubber after all, many chinese loop kill or smash the ball with their tenergy of in their BH by twiddling. Boll's loops are not easy to kill, the chinese make it look easy, they are faster stronger core and legs and have studied boll's game over the years.

In the end there is no better rubber or technique it is a matter of preference,adaptability and effectiveness. If tensor rubbers where the only rubbers existing in TT then the chinese would still dominate the game

Hi TTFrenzy, I understand your points. The thing is, when looping with your whole arm, it has its own advantages and disadvantages. if you're tall and your arms are long, it's easy to exert much power and speed on the ball, however, you do lose flexibility and adaptability with balls come straight to your right pocket.

Yes, the height of the ball does matter. I'm pretty sure there are only a few non-chinese players would still loop drive the ball when it reach 1m or higher above the table. The rest of them just try to smack the hell out of the ball with a smash.
However, once the ball gets above 1.5m, it's a different story of course, no one would loop that, even the chinese players. They would usually use their Red sponge (usually Tenergy) to smash, simply because tension rubber gives you more catapult effect.

To prove my point, refer to Ma Long's for his high ball loops. He would still loops the ball when it's really high. Fan zhendong, Zhang Jike, Xu Xin would do the same!

Boll's slow spinny loop was never a threat for the chinese, simply because it's spinny and SLOW! In the chinese way of looping, your first objective is to kill the opponent's spin and create your own spin. So spin was never a problem for the chinese loop! The 40+ ball even gives Boll & Ovtrarov these days because it's even harder to create spin on the ball.

In the end, when 2 high level opponents, who possess almost identical skills compete, fine tuning their equipments will give them advantage over the other. I would say, the Chinese Rubbers will give them the advantages. Although, i could spend days talking about this and it won't stop! . So if you make the chinese use the Euro/jap rubber, i'm pretty sure they won't be invincible anymore.

Just the side note, Japanese knows their forehand loops are weak, but they will not copy that of the Chinese. They have great pride for themselves. Therefore, they focus very much on spin and close to the table execution.

Let's assume close to the table attacks is just like using a knife in a battle. But when your opponent uses a gun (mid-far table loop), and force you to go far from the table, would you still bring a knife to a gun fight? Until now, besides the Chinese, who else in the world would win over them in a forehand rally? Stefan Fegerl is the closest thing to the Chinese that i know of, i was surprised to find out his father in law is Li Xiao Dong? No wonder, his game mentality is different, and he does play like a chinese. But you can see his long arms and legs make him look pretty ugly and awkward! And this proves my point as i said in earlier post!

In recent years, the Koreans have made great improvements by adopting the Chinese forehand loop. Combine with their lightning speed foot work, they pose great threats to the world. Even in recent competitions, some of the great Chinese players still lose to them. Quite a surprise!

By looking at your Combo, i can see you prefer spin, ball placement, and long rallies rather than a quick 3rd ball kill. I wonder if you come across any good chinese players around your area?

Cheers,

 

[Nikoli]

But.. but... I'm 1m86 and I want to use that technique...

Just stick with what you feel right for yourself. Sometimes, learning 1 new thing could cost you a whole lot more things. =))

 

[Rajah*]

[emoji119] my fault Carl.. i was on my way to work that day when [emoji85] [emoji86] [emoji87] [emoji90] P commented "non sense", and now he is even dragging Tony on this.

Mr.P sir we have seen your videos on how you play at your highest level. We also saw that you make good comments if not worst to trigger a riot that most of us want to jump on you so you would stop arguing for you are all knowing bookish nerd who think that you are applyin what you are sharing. Now you talk too much about "paddle behavior" in real teaching we dont use the term paddle behavior, you see this is the main problem with your video mr.P sir
You rely too much on your paddle behavior to the point that we watch you just standing flat footed on the ground and just forcing your arm up to do spin for you. You forgot basic footwork and body coordination, please stop using paddle behavior it irritates me as a doctor coz that paddle doesnt have a mind of its own to control its behavior and start using mind and body coordination. "Brain" controls the nervous system etc etc..

I will disagree with you that technique/skill vs player is non sense and not important. Have you watched table tennis match live world tour etc? Uhhh! believe me when i say its a display of superior technique to win. Table tennis is a big question and answer as to what skill should be use counter your opponent. A deep understanding about the game of question and answer will point you to a certain technique.

Dont drag Tony on this sir, what Tony shares Tony also applies when he plays and train his students. If i continue writting it will be endless.

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[Pnachtwey]

[emoji119] my fault Carl.. i was on my way to work that day when [emoji85] [emoji86] [emoji87] [emoji90] P commented "non sense", and now he is even dragging Tony on this.

I agree with what Tony said that it is more about the ability to execute than the rubber or stroke. I am not dragging Tony into this.

Mr.P sir we have seen your videos on how you play at your highest level.

Which videos?
The looping the back spin one? I don't see any of you trying to lift back extreme back spin using T25. The blade is a Firewall Plus. This is a push blocker setup and not a looping paddle. I didn't need to move much because the robot was shooting the ball more or in the same place.

Or the third ball attack one? Bogeyhunter posted a video doing the same drill that same week. I was doing a lot better than him if you compare the two videos.

Neither were real games.

BTW, during my last lesson with my coach ( 2600 USATT ) I played two handicap matches. My coach beat me 3-1 with a 5 ball handicap and lost 3-0 when I got a 6 ball handicap. I will let you do the math or find the handicap tables.

We also saw that you make good comments if not worst to trigger a riot that most of us want to jump on you so you would stop arguing for you are all knowing bookish nerd who think that you are applyin what you are sharing. Now you talk too much about "paddle behavior" in real teaching we dont use the term paddle behavior, you see this is the main problem with your video mr.P sir

I never used the term paddle behavior. I think something got lost in translation. I said paddle attitude. Attitude was probably a bad choice of words for a low tech forum but I meant angle of the paddle in 3 dimensions and axis of rotations. See definition #3
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/attitude
You are so quick to criticize without making sure you are right.
In the lifting video I was applying the match speed technique. It works. It is not delusional as UpsidedownCarl said.

You rely too much on your paddle behavior to the point that we watch you just standing flat footed on the ground and just forcing your arm up to do spin for you. You forgot basic footwork and body coordination, please stop using paddle behavior it irritates me as a doctor coz that paddle doesnt have a mind of its own to control its behavior and start using mind and body coordination. "Brain" controls the nervous system etc etc..

I have no clue what you are talking about. You must have me mixed up with someone else. I do agree the paddle doesn't have a mind of its own. I have never said otherwise.

I will disagree with you that technique/skill vs player is non sense and not important.

I never said skill and technique doesn't matter. I agreed with Tony that it is about the ability execute. Isn't that easy to see? What is wrong with you?

Have you watched table tennis match live world tour etc? Uhhh! believe me when i say its a display of superior technique to win. Table tennis is a big question and answer as to what skill should be use counter your opponent. A deep understanding about the game of question and answer will point you to a certain technique.

What are we arguing about again? Yes, I like reading the spin on the serve and seeing if the players play it the same way I would.

Dont drag Tony on this sir, what Tony shares Tony also applies when he plays and train his students. If i continue writting it will be endless.

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?????

It seems like you just wanted to argue for the sake of arguing. OK. I am up for that but I have know clue what you want to argue about. It seem like you see others disagreeing with me and you just want to "pile on". Well you look pretty stupid doing so. I would think a doctor would be more careful and read carefully.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Well, it seems I have caused trouble without meaning to.

1st. I did not want to wake that other dead subject so I won't refer to it. I am happy to have Pnatchtwey here participating.

2nd. Pnatchtwey did not wake this thread up. And nobody has answered the questions of the newbie who did wake the thread up. Perhaps that is a good thing.

I was just trying to have fun and make a joke of the fact that someone new to the forum asked an off subject question in a thread that was already buried. Hopefully we can all laugh at the scenario.

But by all means, resurrect the thread about the Korean's using the European loop, Europeans using the Japanese loop, Chinese using the American loop, Japanese players using the Korean loop, or any other combination of silliness you want.

Hopefully we can all get along. Because if we can't, the goon squad is going to be coming after me again. And I am tired of finding new ways to trick and trap them.


Sent from the Oracle of Delphi by the Pythia

 

[Suga D]

Didn't this thread die an unhappy death half a year ago? Whose idea was it to resurrect this from the grave? Rajah, I am going to blame you even though you didn't do it. Now think up a good excuse. LOL.

Oh, wait, I know, it must have been because you were being chased by the goon squad and you wanted to confuse them and throw them off your trail. Good work.

Sorry, but i think i was the jackass who linked this thread in a different post a couple of days ago.
Sorry for this irritation. It was actually meant for denizyilmaz, who was considering if he should get a rubber that is even more tacky than big dipper, cause he wanted to get MORE SPIN...

It was neither my intention to restart picking on peter, nor did i think, that this thread would ever get resurrected...

Anyway, this here was my post:

Denizyilmaz, i haven't seen you play yet, but if you use the same technique on tacky rubbers like you've been using for your tenergy, then it's no big surprise you didn't get more spin from the big dipper. I think that is kind of what tinykin meant. You have to change/adjust your technique to make these tacky rubbers shine.

To make tacky rubbers excel it recquires a full arm swing stroke with a very brushing contact of the ball.
Most people that use tenergies and tensors don't do this kind of swing, (EDIT: except maybe Kreanga) but instead it's more of a underarm/half arm swing than full arm and engaging more the sponge, whereas with a full arm swing you rather engage the topsheet.

You can try to get the tackiest rubber like friendship 729 origin or friendship 729 origin soft and most likely still won't get better results (MORE SPIN!!
I guess that is what you're after)
If you don't adjust your technique...

There have been so many threads and vids on this forum about this topic already. I think i've found one that fits. Maybe you like to read...

http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?10480-European-Loop-vs-Chinese-Loop

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Here is the Necromancer I was referring to.

I am a little offtopic but who is LSS at BH biased grip and MM at FH biased grip? Lee Sang Su and Morizono Masataka?

See what a good thing he did to wake the dead and get everyone arguing senselessly once again.

I guess: 'tis the season!

I think MM means Mini Mouse. But perhaps it's Micky or Michel Maze.


Sent from the Oracle of Delphi by the Pythia

 

[Suga D]

Thanks Carl. You made me feel better.

 

[Rajah*]

Lol Carl miss u guys. It was Suga Suga Suga!!! [emoji4]

Mr.P sir everythin i said are related to your old post and recent post. I am such a big fan of yours that is why i love reading. Oh yes me being stupid and you calling names..i am fine with than really. ive been in the sport for over 28yrs so just imagine (how old are you now) you still try to train with your coach right? And yet you wander around giving advices . I will be straight forward with you.. you sir still have less knowledge about the game so just keep up with your trainer and apply your physics with him. And looooooooose some weight and do yoga it will benefit you as you move while playing. You cannot rely everything on your arm, you need footwork!
Sorry P i dont have the luxury of time to argue with you.
Post #59
Technique in execution is no nonsense.
Putting a debate with a closed minded like you is non sense.

"Physics alone will never make you a good player"



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[UpSideDownCarl]

Hey, hopefully my best role on the site is comic relief. And hopefully we can all laugh at ourselves.

But being an Uhmurkan, I want to do the Brazilian loop. Everything is better if it is from Brazil:

Sent from the Oracle of Delphi by the Pythia

 

[Baal]

I just loop the ball and I try to be relaxed and time the ball as perfectly as I can. If you have perfect timing and get some degree of weight transfer, your shot will be good. Nothing else matters.

I suspect that if you use very hard tacky rubber over a long period of time your stroke will evolve a little differently than if you use a grippy European/Japanese rubber and that if you try to make a change from Euro-loop to a Sino-loop consciously you will fail miserably. You will constantly be thinking about your damned arm. And as soon as you stop thinking, you will revert to your natural stroke, whatever that is.

I have heard the term "necromancer" used to describe people who resurrect long dead zombie threads on TT forum.

 

[Suga D]

I suspect that if you use very hard tacky rubber over a long period of time your stroke will evolve a little differently than if you use a grippy European/Japanese rubber and that if you try to make a change from Euro-loop to a Sino-loop consciously you will fail miserably. You will constantly be thinking about your damned arm. And as soon as you stop thinking, you will revert to your natural stroke, whatever that is.

I grew up using pf4 (cause it was much cheaper than other rubbers and also cause Guo Yue Hua who was world champion back then used it) but only played half arm loop with it to that time. It didn't work well so my coach made me use sriver and tackiness. I switched to magic carbon and markV and back to sriver till i stopped playing. So when i returned to the sport i first started with slow tensors, but playing with a friends racket with both sides 729 made me feel like coming home. And after a couple of months of multiball practice the full arm became feeling natural. But i didn't replace my 'old' stroke completely. It was rather an addition to my repertoire. So sometimes there is a time for half arm stroke, sometimes for a full arm.
And i must say the effort has been totally worth it. Opponents really don't seem to like when i do it. Quite a few misjudge the spin and punchblock holes in the air...

 

[GiorgosTT]

I used to have a straight(ish) arm forehand, using a low throw euro-jap rubber (Calibra tour M). Then, for about 4 months I focused my practice on my backhand, mostly playing shots with a lot of wrist involved, very close or over the table. This messed up my timing for the forehand, and being very close to the table (and 1m86 tall) I developed an ugly, bent arm half motion forehand, which is good for nothing (no spin, no power).

I consciously tried to go back to my full arm swing, and as Baal predicted I failed miserably... So I made the change to a chinese rubber, a Friendship/729 Super FX, thinking that it would force my forehand motion to change.

So far it's not really working, which is frustrating, but I'll keep practising and see what happens...