2019 ITTF World Tour Grand Finals

[NextLevel]

I also think he will be there... He got a good and stable results.... So why not?

Because of two players called Ma Long and Fan Zhendong?

 

[Brs]

Ito thrives on high arcing topspin and doesn't like players who drive the ball through the table. It isn't easy to vary spin when the ball is coming at you at 100mph.

Most players don't like 100mph drives coming at them. It's also not easy to land them consistently. SYS did it for a match and destroyed Ito. I don't think anyone else would have fared much better against SYS that day. If WYD has that in her, good for her, she deserves to win.

 

[Vlad Celler]

Most players don't like 100mph drives coming at them. It's also not easy to land them consistently. SYS did it for a match and destroyed Ito. I don't think anyone else would have fared much better against SYS that day. If WYD has that in her, good for her, she deserves to win.

Honestly, it didn't seem like the SYS destroyed Ito on the last T-2....The game was equal ....And rather, it was not SYS who won this game, but Ito lost ...

 

[Sali]

I don't know why you think the World Cup is a major - it barely is in the CNT perception. The WTTC is the biggest tournament and Xu Xin was the only Chinese player to lose to a foreigner in the whole event. In a draw where he was the clear favorite.

The thing is that Ma Long, just like Zhang Jike, has a chance at history. They will not take it away from him without a good reason. Its really.not up.for discussion but I guess we can wait for the decision so that we can close this conversation.

Big titles are important but I do not think that FZD didn't care about wining or loosing to franziska or JYS. World tours are even tougher becasue you have more chinese players, so it is extremely hard to win such tournament. Single defeat for me im big event does not mean that you are going to loose another one and also win in olympics does not guarantee you take another one.
That's just my opinion and I would be really pissed if I were XX

 

[zeio]

Sometimes, I read things like what you wrote and wonder if people understand what Ma Long means to Chinese table tennis.

Unless either Ma Long or Fan Zhendong get seriously incapacitated, Xu Xin is not playing singles.

I don't know why you think the World Cup is a major - it barely is in the CNT perception. The WTTC is the biggest tournament and Xu Xin was the only Chinese player to lose to a foreigner in the whole event. In a draw where he was the clear favorite.

The thing is that Ma Long, just like Zhang Jike, has a chance at history. They will not take it away from him without a good reason. Its really.not up.for discussion but I guess we can wait for the decision so that we can close this conversation.

In the interview before WTTC 2019, LGL rated the 5 Olympic events by danger level. He said all 5 golds are not safe. He can't make any guarantees or promises, instead he could only tell based on probability. For Japan, they'll fight for all 5 golds, because they also can't make any guarantees in any of them. For women's, the main rival is Japan. For men's, it's the world.

Most Dangerous -> Least Dangerous
XD(1 pair), MS(2 players), WS(2 players), WT(3 players), MT(3 players)

XD event is also played first and for the first time. If they drop this one, expect the domino effect(like how XX/LSW almost lost to LSS/JJH right after XX lost to Gauzy when the 2 matches took place only hours apart). So he has to solve the very practical problem at hand, "is it possible for our players to play in all 3 events?" No room for error over an 11-day period. Singles event right after, to be followed by the team event. Will they have enough physical and mental stamina for all 3? If they don't, how many golds will that cost?

What's the XD event to CNT? It used to be an event that the CNT have forgone strategically for decades. They never trained for it. These players never had the concept. They were merely playing by individual abilities. Now you need them to perfect XD in such a short time, under all that pressure? Not likely possible.

Now, XX is widely regarded as the strongest in doubles. But compared to ML and FZD, provided their injuries are under control, his singles is weaker, which makes him ideal for XD, and MT where the doubles match is played first. After taking the doubles, the score we need is 2-2 for the next 4 singles to win. We need to plan for that.

XX's role is very crucial. Through the XD, I want him and LSW to make it. Because given their age, after playing the majors all these years, if they were to break through, they'd have done it long ago. If you can't, could you use your limited stamina, ability, and time in areas where you're needed most strategically?

 

[NextLevel]

Big titles are important but I do not think that FZD didn't care about wining or loosing to franziska or JYS. World tours are even tougher becasue you have more chinese players, so it is extremely hard to win such tournament. Single defeat for me im big event does not mean that you are going to loose another one and also win in olympics does not guarantee you take another one.
That's just my opinion and I would be really pissed if I were XX

Okay. Since you still seem to misunderstand (or block your ears a d eyes to) the training investment in world tours vs WTTC, the latter they have special camps and training periods to avoid the very thing XX did by losing to Gauzy, I give up. No point in discussing this forever if these are the kinds of comparisons you want to make. XX has had multiple opportunities. This isn't his first rodeo.

World tours are where you experiment. In major tournaments you bring your A game. ML is definitely going through a crisis as was Fan Zhendong. But those guys have gone through too much. They have proven themselves when Xu Xin failed. When did they lose after major preparation?

Looking at ML injury now, and knowing that this is the injury he has been carrying for WTTC, can you explain how he won? And given he won, why would you deny him the chance to do it at Olympics 2020? First 2 time male singles gold winner? When you have Fan as your backup, you have that confidence. Because Fan will not lose to Gauzy after major preperation. He doesn't even know what that means.

 

[zeio]

From the CNT's perspective, it's not just about any 1 event. They treat all 5 events as 1 continuity, each connected to the other.

 

[Brs]

Honestly, it didn't seem like the SYS destroyed Ito on the last T-2....The game was equal ....And rather, it was not SYS who won this game, but Ito lost ...

I meant the 4-1 beatdown in German Open or wherever.

 

[Sali]

Okay. Since you still seem to misunderstand (or block your ears a d eyes to) the training investment in world tours vs WTTC, the latter they have special camps and training periods to avoid the very thing XX did by losing to Gauzy, I give up. No point in discussing this forever if these are the kinds of comparisons you want to make. XX has had multiple opportunities. This isn't his first rodeo.

World tours are where you experiment. In major tournaments you bring your A game. ML is definitely going through a crisis as was Fan Zhendong. But those guys have gone through too much. They have proven themselves when Xu Xin failed. When did they lose after major preparation?

Looking at ML injury now, and knowing that this is the injury he has been carrying for WTTC, can you explain how he won? And given he won, why would you deny him the chance to do it at Olympics 2020? First 2 time male singles gold winner? When you have Fan as your backup, you have that confidence. Because Fan will not lose to Gauzy after major preperation. He doesn't even know what that means.

I understand but it is hard for me to accept it.
XX had some chances but he made great progress this year developing his BH to another level ( I am still thinking why playing with harimoto he uses his old strategy playing FH all the places) and he managed to beat all chinese players he was usualy loosing. He is world no 1 in the world and it is really hard to imagine world no 1 will not Play olympics (I know this is not first time ML was also no 1 when they picked Wang hao).
Finally he never lost to harimoto, the greatest danger to CNT players now even in pain he managed to win while harimoto was playing best in his life IMO.
Can you imagine how he is feeling beeing that old beeing no 1 and loosing his last chance for olympic medal.
I would love to see him changing to taipei and took the gold from china

 

[zeio]

That's how Sweden beat China. The players and coaches treated the team and singles as one continuity. Glenn picked the best possible players for the job and went ahead with a surprise lineup, much like what Yoo Namkyu did at the TWC.

 

[NextLevel]

That's how Sweden beat China. The players and coaches treated the team and singles as one continuity. Glenn picked the best possible players for the job and went ahead with a surprise lineup, much like what Yoo Namkyu did at the TWC.

You don't have that flexibility in the Olympics today if ever.

 

[zeio]

Many people get this wrong when they cite how ML was No. 1 and didn't get to play. London 2012 was different thanks to Sharara. The CNT could've denied WH's or ZJK's to make ML play singles, but the rules were such that doing so would disqualify them from playing the team event.

For the interested, WTTC winners always attended the Olympics, with rare exceptions.

Another peculiar condition with WTTC 2011 is that the criteria were set such that the top 2 for each NOC on the WR released right after the tournament(June 2011?) would qualify for the singles event of London Olympics. WH and ZJK were WR1 and WR3, respectively. MLin was 4th and ML was 5th. ML would've been above ZJK had he won the WTTC.

 

[NextLevel]

Many people get this wrong when they cite how ML was No. 1 and didn't get to play. London 2012 was different thanks to Sharara. The CNT could've denied WH's or ZJK's to make ML play singles, but the rules were such that doing so would disqualify them from playing the team event.

So the rules changed in 2016, where they were allowed to remove both Fan and Xu Xin to allow Zhang Jike?

I think ultimately, China sent the Champs that they wanted to send. They subbed Guo Yan with Ding Ning back then as well.

 

[bobpuls]

Reveling in a kid being heartbroken after a tough loss. You are a grade-A asshole and deserve a big slap across the face from somebody your damn self.

No it was a carma who slaps him thru his mouth and you cry like him ... his parents with coach also deserve this because they are guiding him this way .
one more time.

 

[Brs]

No it was a carma who slaps him thru his mouth and you cry like him ... his parents with coach also deserve this because they are guiding him this way .
one more time.

https://youtu.be/tCf_cPZ8Qxo

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

OK, based on the evidence/arguments you've made as well as NL, I concede that it will be ML in the 2nd singles spot and XX in the 3rd spot.

Even though this does solve the XD problem for LGL, I think it creates a different problem. Let's say ML can't seem to shake off whatever nagging injury he has .... not debilitating enough to not play, but definitely affecting his play such that he can't beat HT/LYJ. Now, FZD is a fantastic player no doubt, but if ML loses his half, that's going to put a lot more pressure on FZD, and this will be his first Olympics. Both LYJ and HT are both rapidly improving. The added pressure may cause FZD to play below his standards. The added pressure is very real. I'm sure Wang Hao felt it when he played RSM. Ma Lin failed in his half of the bracket losing to Waldner in Athens. I guess the gamble is on being able to nurse ML to full recovery.

In the interview before WTTC 2019, LGL rated the 5 Olympic events by danger level. He said all 5 golds are not safe. He can't make any guarantees or promises, instead he could only tell based on probability. For Japan, they'll fight for all 5 golds, because they also can't make any guarantees in any of them. For women's, the main rival is Japan. For men's, it's the world.

Most Dangerous -> Least Dangerous
XD(1 pair), MS(2 players), WS(2 players), WT(3 players), MT(3 players)

XD event is also played first and for the first time. If they drop this one, expect the domino effect(like how XX/LSW almost lost to LSS/JJH right after XX lost to Gauzy when the 2 matches took place only hours apart). So he has to solve the very practical problem at hand, "is it possible for our players to play in all 3 events?" No room for error over an 11-day period. Singles event right after, to be followed by the team event. Will they have enough physical and mental stamina for all 3? If they don't, how many golds will that cost?

What's the XD event to CNT? It used to be an event that the CNT have forgone strategically for decades. They never trained for it. These players never had the concept. They were merely playing by individual abilities. Now you need them to perfect XD in such a short time, under all that pressure? Not likely possible.

Now, XX is widely regarded as the strongest in doubles. But compared to ML and FZD, provided their injuries are under control, his singles is weaker, which makes him ideal for XD, and MT where the doubles match is played first. After taking the doubles, the score we need is 2-2 for the next 4 singles to win. We need to plan for that.

XX's role is very crucial. Through the XD, I want him and LSW to make it. Because given their age, after playing the majors all these years, if they were to break through, they'd have done it long ago. If you can't, could you use your limited stamina, ability, and time in areas where you're needed most strategically?

...

 

[Hysteresis]

OK, based on the evidence/arguments you've made as well as NL, I concede that it will be ML in the 2nd singles spot and XX in the 3rd spot.

Even though this does solve the XD problem for LGL, I think it creates a different problem. Let's say ML can't seem to shake off whatever nagging injury he has .... not debilitating enough to not play, but definitely affecting his play such that he can't beat HT/LYJ. Now, FZD is a fantastic player no doubt, but if ML loses his half, that's going to put a lot more pressure on FZD, and this will be his first Olympics. Both LYJ and HT are both rapidly improving. The added pressure may cause FZD to play below his standards. The added pressure is very real. I'm sure Wang Hao felt it when he played RSM. Ma Lin failed in his half of the bracket losing to Waldner in Athens. I guess the gamble is on being able to nurse ML to full recovery.

I think people are overrating how much the CNT feel like they owe ML. They will select him because he has proven he performs under the highest pressure (eg olympics/wttc), and they usually err on the side of experience and performance under pressure over, pretty much anything else.

The reason ML is a shoe in is that he has proven that is is the best option in terms of performace under these circumstances. Not because he has 'earned the spot for his services over the years' or proven his loyalty to the CNT or whatever. It is purely an assessment on how they expect him to perform, not what he 'deserves' for what he has done.

If he is injured enough to be playing like he was during the world cup, eg a major threat to not making the finals, the CNT will probably not play him, then XX gets the spot. If he is fine injury wise, but not in great form, he'll still be selected, because CNT expect him to step up for the occasion.

The CNTs priority are the medals, not to make ML feel good.

 

[Caxoera]

No it was a carma who slaps him thru his mouth and you cry like him ... his parents with coach also deserve this because they are guiding him this way .
one more time.

in this case its a kid playing with the adults and not an adult playing with kids. So, if you wanna play with the elders you can’t expect to be treated like a child. They are not joking, its their job and their carrier.

 

[NextLevel]

I think people are overrating how much the CNT feel like they owe ML. They will select him because he has proven he performs under the highest pressure (eg olympics/wttc), and they usually err on the side of experience and performance under pressure over, pretty much anything else.

The reason ML is a shoe in is that he has proven that is is the best option in terms of performace under these circumstances. Not because he has 'earned the spot for his services over the years' or proven his loyalty to the CNT or whatever. It is purely an assessment on how they expect him to perform, not what he 'deserves' for what he has done.

If he is injured enough to be playing like he was during the world cup, eg a major threat to not making the finals, the CNT will probably not play him, then XX gets the spot. If he is fine injury wise, but not in great form, he'll still be selected, because CNT expect him to step up for the occasion.

The CNTs priority are the medals, not to make ML feel good.

You are tautologically correct but your argument lacks nuance. I think you underestimate the relationships that are formed when people hang around together for many years. Of course the CNT thinks ML will rise to the occasion, but that is what "owing him" means - he has never disappointed at the big events, even when he has excuses. He has performed "miracles" to quote LGL.

I learned a lot debating people over the merits of ML missing the 2012 Olympics and ZJK making the 2016 Olympics. You have to remember that Zhang Jike was given opportunities until he fell apart. No one in 2016 could rationally justify choosing ZJK over FZD using tour performance - he looked injured and clearly was. But the World Champion dynamic (which is the criteria that secures ML his spot in the 2020 Olympics, ZJK was the 2013 Champion) as well as LGL's trust (and also the fact that ZJK was going for a double slam of sorts) got him the spot. One of the ironies was that despite all the criticism of ZJK, he actually showed how he responded to pressure when he played JYS in the Men's team event, while XX, who everyone and their parents and grandparents considered the better player lost to Mizutani. Of course some people argue that Mizutani would have beaten Zhang Jike and ZJK got a lucky draw. But the bottom line is that you would struggle to justify ZJK being selected on merit over FZD and XX without looking at the 2013 WTTC and 2014 World Cup. But if you understood how LGL viewed ZJK, it made perfect sense. ZJK was someone who liked to do his best when he felt doubted by people. I asked a coach and friend once and he felt that choosing ZJK made sense when the alternatives where FZD and XX who hadn't won anything.

As long as they think ML can do well enough to have a good chance of getting silver or gold, even if he is not in the top 3 of the CNT, he will play singles. Good chance doesn't mean he needs to be 50% of his true self, ZJK was not anything close to that in 2016. That is what I mean when I write that it will take a lot for XX to sniff singles. IF that sounds like ML is owed, then yes, ML is owed. If anyone wanted to replace ML, they should have beaten him to the WTTC.

 

[zeio]

So the rules changed in 2016, where they were allowed to remove both Fan and Xu Xin to allow Zhang Jike?

I think ultimately, China sent the Champs that they wanted to send. They subbed Guo Yan with Ding Ning back then as well.

Yea, it was slightly different for Rio 2016.

Remember the qualification fiasco in Hong Kong? They changed the order of qualification(qualification tournament before world ranking) and China took advantage of it.

ML got his spot by winning the qualification tournament. CNT confirmed it. FZD got his invitation by world ranking but CNT rejected it, and by the rules the invitation went to XX, next in line, and CNT rejected it again, and so it went to ZJK, next in line. CNT confirmed it. Once they had 2 singles players, by the rules they received a 3rd spot, which they were free to recommend anyone.

FZD got rejected, then XX got rejected, then ZJK was confirmed
LSW got rejected, then DN was confirmed
https://web.archive.org/web/2016080...d_Events/2016OG/2016_OG_qualified_players.pdf
XX and LSW recommended for the team
https://web.archive.org/web/2016091...rld_Events/2016OG/2016_OG_qualified_teams.pdf

Qualification System for Rio 2016
https://web.archive.org/web/2016082...d_Events/2016OG/Regulations/Rio2016_QS_EN.pdf
Qualification System for London 2012
https://web.archive.org/web/2016042...World_Events/2012OG/Qual_system_OG2012_EN.pdf

Discussion back then...
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/foru...e=2016-ittfasian-olympic-qualification#928354
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/foru...e=2016-ittfasian-olympic-qualification#928554
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/foru...lympics-rio-2016-zhang-jike-or-ma-long#938931