Video Footage Safe Thread

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Hi all, it’s been a while but I’ve been working hard on my game. I am hoping for some advice or thoughts on a challenge I am facing with my BH loop. i recorded the video below as part of another thread on the double bounce footwork, but in watching it back it struck me that I don’t much like the look of my BH…

Im playing it more often, with more confidence, and landing at a higher % - but it looks jagged and snatchy to me and not smooth and free flowing like the top players I admire and try to emulate. I know at least some of the reason is that I have followed advice from multiple sources (Ti Long for example) who emphasise the need for a sharp end and return to ready - like a martial arts punch. This doesnt seem to gel with smooth and flowing for me…

I’d welcome any objective thoughts, observations or pointers as to what you are seeing (on either wing) to help me towards a better looking and smoother stroke..

I don't comment much on technique but will give you some feedback in general. Apologies to NL and others who have heard it 1,000x before.

Stop training with a robot.

If you needed fitness it would help, but you are already fit. If you mostly care about TJing endlessly and winning points isn't so important, have fun with it. But I think you want to win matches.

What you are really teaching your brain in this video is not to look at contact, not to look at spin, not to look at body position to anticipate placement. All the things that separate better from worse players in a real match are getting negative utility from this training.
 
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I don't comment much on technique but will give you some feedback in general. Apologies to NL and others who have heard it 1,000x before.

Stop training with a robot.

If you needed fitness it would help, but you are already fit. If you mostly care about TJing endlessly and winning points isn't so important, have fun with it. But I think you want to win matches.

What you are really teaching your brain in this video is not to look at contact, not to look at spin, not to look at body position to anticipate placement. All the things that separate better from worse players in a real match are getting negative utility from this training.
Thanks for the input Brs, points taken.

For me, I have certain opportunities to play during the week ( 2 x 3h cub sessions and 1 x 90 min coaching) so my weekend opportunities are based around my hime table and robot. Obviously a part of this can be service training, but the remainder is where I try to develop better stroke technique (such as this one) - are you saying there is no benefit to any of that? Can I optimise the robot practice further?

Surely the robot is a proxy for a coach feeding multi ball - a practice used a lot.

In my mind, when I play at club I am focused on other areas and have less time for technique, so without my robot practice I am reducing that opportunity to develop better technical skills. So far it has helped me to bring better strokes to my matches or informal club sessions and also to really work on drilling down on what my coach has taught me on the Friday.
 
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It is not just a video. I have to see the person play. But more importantly, I have to see the person comment on footage.

The idea here is, the comments in this thread should be by people who have posted video so others who are posting have seen them and have an idea of how the person commenting plays. And then I have to see that the comments they make or would make, would be useful and constructive to the person whose footage they are commenting on.

Like, GrandMast3r, the people commenting on the footage in your thread, most of them would not be allowed to give feedback in this thread. :)
Okay, I get it, fair enough. Thank you 🫡
 
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Hi J-Slick...

Take a look at your BH point of impact. You often strike the ball way too far in front of you to get any leverage. (sometimes you are striking it at the point of full arm extension from body - like 2-2.5 feet from body) About the only shot doing the impact that far in front and having any chance at consistency/quality is a BH poke.

Consider moving the point of impact back... to let's say a foot from your body, you will have way more leverage and offensive possibility for quality.

This is a philosophical question of theory and application. Some players play with next to zero offensive BH, some use it as a setup or weapon. There is no single correct answer... but if you want your BH to be anything more than poke it and keep it in play, look at changing your point of impact.
Totally agree. But how do I work on this? Just practice and think about it really hard? Lol. I want to be able to attack with my backhand…I don’t except it to be like my forehand but if I can have it like 70% of my forehand I will beat some better players.
 
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Totally agree. But how do I work on this? Just practice and think about it really hard? Lol. I want to be able to attack with my backhand…I don’t except it to be like my forehand but if I can have it like 70% of my forehand I will beat some better players.
Your backhand has whip but the backswing is a bit inadequate. If you can get the backswing to a C/L-shape (the wrist should lead the stroke) and play out of that base on the backhand, it will improve it pretty quickly. It is the tip I give most players and most players who adopt it see quick and easy gains (not necessarily quick gains, but once you adopt it, the extra power comes so easily that you can adopt it across multiple swings). IF you watch where Dan and Franziska's backhand end up on the backswing, if you can play out of that shape on the backhand, good things will happen. I link to where the discussion is in the video.

 
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Serving is the one thing, that i mostly learn on my own, without a coach help. I will gladly taking some of advices of a more experienced forum players 🏓
You can do a lot more with the fingers I think. Here is my high level coach friend. I think of it as making a figure 8 of sorts.

 
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You can do a lot more with the fingers I think. Here is my high level coach friend. I think of it as making a figure 8 of sorts.

Thanks a lot! It’s looks like some sort of a whip motion, I usually using it, but not as much. Need to practice it next time, with little bit more of an attention to this detail 🤌🏼
 
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Totally agree. But how do I work on this? Just practice and think about it really hard? Lol. I want to be able to attack with my backhand…I don’t except it to be like my forehand but if I can have it like 70% of my forehand I will beat some better players.
Hi J-Slick,

Come out to 1st Slavic Evangelical tonite at 5 PM or later or hit me up at Citrus Hts Tuesday.

The key is to bend forward at waist some, get upper arm and elbow in front of body and on the side (how much or little depends on how relative to belly button left or right your natural impact zone is), bring bat back to body.

The entire stroke is like 1 foot before impact. it is pretty simple. You can use only a little wrist for a more solid impact or more wrist with more graze depending on what you are trying to do. very easy to do an open bat hard hit from this position, it is a favorite shot of mine. A logical follow up to your BH loop that gets popped up or vs a loose ball on BH.

Your current BH looks like a Government over-reach, but Thomas Sowell is on your side.
 
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Tactically, up to 2000 or 2100, you can play without any BH topspin what-so-ever... but it is damn tiring to play that way. A reliable and versatile BH saves one a lot of energy.

Even if ur BH is 1/2 of your FH, just having it land and do what you want where you want counts so much.
 
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How someone can achieve a spot for commenting? Just curious, not wanting to giving advices. I find it fare, that not everyone have access to do it
Good question.

You have to convince Carl. He set the rules and standard... and has listened to some others and let some others commented. He just wants to make sure people who post vids on this thread will get comments from solid people who will not make fun of them or give bad advice. He is trying to keep it real.

Might help that effort a LOT if you send him a pile of fake National H3 and Pro Tenergies... maybe hire an attractive lady dressed in a miniskirt and lipstick to stand over the side of that pile right next to Carl's secret trap door that leads down to his septic basement septic tank at his Krackhouse 13 location.

Yup, that is how Carl catches and entraps the Goon Squad, so if you help him capture the Goon Squad, it goes a long way.

Maybe locate and ship him an upgraded replacement for his ancient NSA Spy Phone. He likes hiz technology.
 
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Good question.

You have to convince Carl. He set the rules and standard... and has listened to some others and let some others commented. He just wants to make sure people who post vids on this thread will get comments from solid people who will not make fun of them or give bad advice. He is trying to keep it real.

Might help that effort a LOT if you send him a pile of fake National H3 and Pro Tenergies... maybe hire an attractive lady dressed in a miniskirt and lipstick to stand over the side of that pile right next to Carl's secret trap door that leads down to his septic basement septic tank at his Krackhouse 13 location.

Yup, that is how Carl catches and entraps the Goon Squad, so if you help him capture the Goon Squad, it goes a long way.

Maybe locate and ship him an upgraded replacement for his ancient NSA Spy Phone. He likes hiz technology.
Mission impossible 9.0 Upsidedown Carl edition plus True TT Detective 4 in a one hard, almost impossible way of 48th Ronin - man, that’s hard 😁
 
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Mission impossible 9.0 Upsidedown Carl edition plus True TT Detective 4 in a one hard, almost impossible way of 48th Ronin - man, that’s hard 😁
Yeah, Carl has high standards and can be a very disagreeable guy... so much that he hosts nearly every TTD Goon Squad member to his residence and TT for the time of their lives. Simply great times.
 
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Hi J-Slick,

Come out to 1st Slavic Evangelical tonite at 5 PM or later or hit me up at Citrus Hts Tuesday.

The key is to bend forward at waist some, get upper arm and elbow in front of body and on the side (how much or little depends on how relative to belly button left or right your natural impact zone is), bring bat back to body.

The entire stroke is like 1 foot before impact. it is pretty simple. You can use only a little wrist for a more solid impact or more wrist with more graze depending on what you are trying to do. very easy to do an open bat hard hit from this position, it is a favorite shot of mine. A logical follow up to your BH loop that gets popped up or vs a loose ball on BH.

Your current BH looks like a Government over-reach, but Thomas Sowell is on your side.
Hi J-Slick,

Come out to 1st Slavic Evangelical tonite at 5 PM or later or hit me up at Citrus Hts Tuesday.

The key is to bend forward at waist some, get upper arm and elbow in front of body and on the side (how much or little depends on how relative to belly button left or right your natural impact zone is), bring bat back to body.

The entire stroke is like 1 foot before impact. it is pretty simple. You can use only a little wrist for a more solid impact or more wrist with more graze depending on what you are trying to do. very easy to do an open bat hard hit from this position, it is a favorite shot of mine. A logical follow up to your BH loop that gets popped up or vs a loose ball on BH.

Your current BH looks like a Government over-reach, but Thomas Sowell is on your side.
Yes let’s hit next open play! Sister is getting married today so I can’t make it to the Slavic church. One day soon hopefully though. I gotta fix this government over-reach! Lol
 
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Serving is the one thing, that i mostly learn on my own, without a coach help. I will gladly taking some of advices of a more experienced forum players 🏓
If you post it on another thread, I can comment on it. I have a few thoughts to share :) :)
 

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are you saying there is no benefit to any of that? Can I optimise the robot practice further?

Surely the robot is a proxy for a coach feeding multi ball - a practice used a lot.
Believe me, I understand. I trained with a robot for years exactly because of this availability benefit. And the less you use it, and the more real coaching you have, the less harm it could do.

I won't say there is no benefit to robots. I mentioned fitness and TJing as possible benefits. But I think people don't recognize there are also negative effects. Maybe if you are conscious of those you could optimize your robot practice. My choice was to simply stop doing it.

And I really don't believe it is remotely close to a coach feeding multiball. Good technique is about adapting your touch to variations in each ball. Even the most professional multiball feeder isn't like a machine. They are going to have variation in speed, placement, pace and trajectory that a robot doesn't really have. And you are going to learn to perceive those variations by seeing and hearing a human body move and the bat contact a ball. This matters.

It is incredibly easy to learn technique on a robot that works amazing, and have it be completely unusable in real situations. I would cite my massive upper arm backswing as an example. I crushed 100s of 1000s of balls vs robot with that swing. It worked because I knew the timing, the placement, the spin. And when you drill something in with a robot you really plant it deep. So it had better be right. There are people who get fantastic results with lots of robot time in addition to coaching. Our girl prodigy Sarah Jalli is one. Just be aware that all of the most important elements of table tennis skill are completely absent from that training. It's like you are doing shadow practice, but with a ball. Shadow practice can be useful too, but nobody would say it is realistic.
 
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Believe me, I understand. I trained with a robot for years exactly because of this availability benefit. And the less you use it, and the more real coaching you have, the less harm it could do.

I won't say there is no benefit to robots. I mentioned fitness and TJing as possible benefits. But I think people don't recognize there are also negative effects. Maybe if you are conscious of those you could optimize your robot practice. My choice was to simply stop doing it.

And I really don't believe it is remotely close to a coach feeding multiball. Good technique is about adapting your touch to variations in each ball. Even the most professional multiball feeder isn't like a machine. They are going to have variation in speed, placement, pace and trajectory that a robot doesn't really have. And you are going to learn to perceive those variations by seeing and hearing a human body move and the bat contact a ball. This matters.

It is incredibly easy to learn technique on a robot that works amazing, and have it be completely unusable in real situations. I would cite my massive upper arm backswing as an example. I crushed 100s of 1000s of balls vs robot with that swing. It worked because I knew the timing, the placement, the spin. And when you drill something in with a robot you really plant it deep. So it had better be right. There are people who get fantastic results with lots of robot time in addition to coaching. Our girl prodigy Sarah Jalli is one. Just be aware that all of the most important elements of table tennis skill are completely absent from that training. It's like you are doing shadow practice, but with a ball. Shadow practice can be useful too, but nobody would say it is realistic.
Powerpong allows you to use iOS or android device to program drills. For example, first ball backspin heavy serve to backhand, second ball heavy backspin return to your backhand (then you can either push the ball back or practice backhand loop), third ball and onward topspin to your backhand then forehand then to your middle. Then end of the drill.

You can then repeat that drill forever until the machine dies.

The preset drill on Powerpong is very simple and sometimes you have to adjust the speed, spin and/or projectory of the ball because in the preset setting the balls might go into the net or go off the end of the table. I don't know why. Maybe becase my machine is older now. So it is still a lot of work to make sure each drill fits you. But it is doable!

As for other machines that always give you a certain type of spin, and the only variation it gives you is you can adjust oscillation and frequency speed, those are good for 1) consolidating certain strokes such as looping underspin, b) helps you build up stamina and c) helps you with developing your reflexes. They cannot help you develop your game play.
 
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To resurrect this thread i will post something. I never intended to put video footage in here, but since i did take the effort and cut/blur training footage for a different use case i might as well but it on here for people to have fun with.

i do actually have access to a set of coaches and a training partner if my term permits me booking trainings, but i don't train that often (perhaps once or twice a month at maximum). I do have the opportunity to play in a few clubs of varying quality/level. Unfortunately i do not have a video of a full match that i can share, since i am too lazy (or inexperienced with video cutting) to cut/blur out the random people and opponents that do appear on casual match nights and training session nor do i want to have private conversations i do have with a coach recorded and published. I can record matches for my own usage sometimes, but in the higher level clubs it seems like the people think i steal their soul if i take a video of them.

Originally for another use case i have created a snippet from a training session with my coach. I do record my "paid" training sessions one video per drill. Unfortunately i think i have added a backhand drill video twice to that compilation. Then i have another short video of me performing a few topspin loops from different scenarios (mainly to show that the technique employed in a match is still different from what you see in the drills). I have experienced that gameplay performance and technique lags behind the drill performance several month.

If you see anything that i can quickly improve with relatively low effort, feel free to chime in.

Currently my top list of things that i need to actively think about when playing is:
1) watch the ball until i hit it with the blade. Whenever i don't the success rate drops and i can basically tell that i never missed/whiffed a ball when i properly watched the ball trajectory until the end.
2) Returning to a more neutral stance in a push battle. I jump forward to receive short balls and while i half-reset my stance (jumping back again) latest on the second or third short push my reset position is with me jumping back out of the table but having my right leg slightly infront.
3) Staying low and on my tippy toes all the time. More often than not i get flat footed in between points and then being agile to move enough is hard. The low stance also changes the POV so that suddenly even balls that are pushed pretty low feel like one can loop them properly while hitting it on chest height (when the chest is on less elevated level).

So my "easy" question is: what should i focus on first because it is just a matter of month focussing on it and having it that well engrained that i do see good improvements, so i can go to the next step.

Shot selection is a big issue for me as well because perhaps watching to many Moregard/Niwa matches, if the ball comes at chest height centrally at me instead of making room to the right or left to play it with a forehand stroke or backhand i tend to intuitively do a kind of chop block motion returning the ball with some sidespin. The sidespin is not too strong because the chop motion is not fast enough, but against weak opponents they either whiff the ball because it bounces too much to the side (sometimes) or the will put the ball into the net because the lack of me adding topspin to the ball will not propell the ball strong enough from the block so it ends up in the net.

You might see things that i can improve technically which will not translate into game performance, since what i do in training and what i do in matches is quite different. I do not loop many balls with the backhand at all. Intuitively i would just counter or block with my backhand. I do not aggressively flip with the forehand simply because my anticipation of short balls is not good enough to be in a position to do so quick enough.

For the videos a bit of pretext:
My coach told me that my forehand topspin technique is OK'ish enough to now focuss way more on my legs and getting into proper position. He wants me to do more micro adjustments, use more twist of the body/waist and not hit the ball too early (that is when i will reach out to the ball instead of waiting for it to enter the ideal strike zone).
One other issue is that i usually will play my strokes while moving and my coach really wants me to move first and then execute the stroke. That is why the second drill he told me that he will deliberately wait for me to move into position before he plays the ball, so that i have finished my movement process before executing the stroke.
The regular backhand stroke drill shows that if i get too comfortable playing from one position i will be flat footed and not able to move quick enough if somebody played the ball somewhere where i dont anticipate it.
For the backhand Topspin drills the first one in the video is against more heavy backspin which he told me to slowly loop. That is very hard for me, but my coach wants me to slow/soft loop them, because it is more successfully like that. The second backhand topspin drill is with less underspin which i can loop with more power which comes easier to me.
The final drill is backhand, forehand, backhand, forehand (free), which means i play a backhand from the backhand corner to my coaches backhand, then i play a forehand to my coaches backhand, then a backhand from my backhand corner to his and the next forehand i play from "wide" forehand to anywhere i like (which is mostly the middle or wide forehand of my coach).


The video with "match situations" are me goofing around against a tall player that mainly only uses thin rubbers and counters alot and a double training match being partnered with my >70 year old neighbour against aforementions tall player and another tall player that plays with pips/pimples-out.
i do like doubles very much, because i usually have somebody more "stable" by my side to keep the ball rolling and give me more time to prepare for the next ball.
 
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Awesome stuff JK,

OK, one very quick tip would be to take the ball earlier.

I think you "get away" with playing it very late because you have a decent amount of spin on your FH and your opposition struggle with that.

You actually look to be in pretty good position in general - However you absolutely need to move earlier.

Take the rally starting at the 30 second mark. When the guy in red plays the shot to you, you want to be getting in position to attack - If you slow it down, you actually don't move your racket in to position until the ball is already on your side of the table (and by then, it's too late).

I think that contributes to you taking the ball later than you should (compare it with the initial training video, and because you know where the ball is coming, you take it earlier, and the shot is better).

Here's what I mean.

JK1.png


The ball has been enlarged to help those with poor eyes (or if they are browsing on a Nokia 3210....)

You look at this picture above and you think you are going to explode with a FH attack to any part of the table.

JK2.png


But you end up in this position somehow, and only "get away with it" due to some good hands/feeling (but against better players, you'd be struggling).

You want to be in your original position, and ready to attack the ball much closer to the "top of the bounce".

The same applies to the next point.

JK3.png


Good position, looks like you are about to play a great shot......

JK4.png



Oh nooooo - The power of the mighty white ball has pushed you miles behind the table, and you are having to try and top spin from the floor!

Again, good hands get you out of it, but that won't be enough against better players.

This should be a "relatively" easy fix because you can already do it in training - So it's just forcing yourself to be a little more active in anticipating your shots, and then executing them earlier.

Great work on the editing to make sure you can share!
 
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