Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[dingyibvs]

Yeah my regular practice partner is the very strong LP/inverted penholder - pretty much not even the coaches who coach can beat him. I played with a slightly weaker LP/inverted penholder than him and almost lost even...

I can only win when my serve receive is really on point. It's not like I don't know how to deal with any single serve, it's that I can't read the damn spin. If you assume 90 deg blade angle = no spin and 45 deg blade angle = underspin, congrats you would too be destroyed hard. They can serve heavy backspin with 90 deg blade angles, and topspin with 45 deg blade angles lol. And just when you're laser focused on spin reading, in comes a sudden fast low long serve (which also can be sideunder, sidetop, pure under, no spin, etc....) and if you're not careful you won't even get to land your loop much less hit it past their defences.

But the LP users have no such problems, you could hide your serve under your armpit and they will still put it back decently without needing to actually read the spin.

How do you play an equal match up when they don't need to read your serve properly and you have to read their serve super well in order not to get destroyed?

I actually tried playing against my practice partner and asked him only to use the inverted side and Im winning easily. If he only used the LP side I'm winning even harder. It is the combination that really takes me apart. It's just way too confusing and unfair to play against...

This is why imo Ryu Seung Min would have destroyed other players much harder if he had some antispin or LP on the other side. This serve receive advantage is no joke at all!

Haha, tell me about it. Today, as mentioned before, I decided to go to a different club to expose myself to more styles. After months of training, I wanted to start learning how to apply it in games and to find out where I needed to focus on. Boy did I get what I wished for!

First player was an inverted/LP combo guy. He doesn't play 0X LP, but a thin sponged one, and it doesn't invert the spin as much and also allows a more effective hit. I wasn't used to that and was pretty damn confused! Lost that one. Next guy I played was a mostly TPB guy with a solid RPB opening loop. He did exactly what you were talking about with services. First service a fast one to my BH, completely 90 degree blade angle, I can see the whole face of the rubber, and I dump it into the net. I was like uh whaaat? He destroyed me in the service game. You know how you become so focused on receiving services that you actually forget to play the next shot even after you successfully received one with decent quality? That was me lol.

I lost 2 more to 2 of the best double inverted guys too. Again just getting killed in the service receive game. Even with an immature BH I was winning the rallies, basically the only time I'd lose a rally is when I mistime my attack on the BH side. Essentially, when I get an opportunity ball to my BH side, I often hit it wrong whether it's the wrong timing, wrong footwork, or wrong angle. I crushed it in fast rallies. I still need to adjust my BH attack against various tempos, but that's hard to replicate in practice so I'll just have to play some more matches.

The only 2 guys I beat were clearly below my level, but one of them would've given me a game for sure a few months ago, and I beat him handily more than doubling up on points against him.

 

[dingyibvs]

My lessons for the day is as follows:

1) I need to work on different tempos on the BH side. I'm gonna have my training partner intentionally feed me some weak blocks so I can work on that.

2) It was drizzling all day and it gets pretty cold at night, so humidity was high and I really, really struggle under those conditions. I think I'm affected more than others because I like to use footwork to perform really big powerful swings, which is probably why I really only feel it on the FH side. I think I learned the trick today, which is to do medium powered loops. With low powered loops I feel like I'm actively suppressing my power, which actually decreases my consistency, but a medium powered loop gets the job done and allows me to do a full stroke.

3) I need to adjust waaay quicker. I'm just thinking of some of the adjustments I should've done during games. For example, if I can't receive very well but can rally, I should just stop trying for quality on receives and instead simply settle for poorer receives but vary the placement and then defend the first shot before entering into a rally.

4) In connection to the 3rd point, when I make a poor receive, I have a habit of stepping back too much. Most people don't attack powerfully enough to need that, and I should instead step back only a little and play defense before attempting to win in a rally. When I step back too far and the attack is weak, I end up just having to fish the ball which is not my game.

 

[blahness]

The father of Korean pro Jeong Young Sik (Jung Hae Chul) uses LP on the BH side of his J-Pen bat (and he played 2100 USATT level with that setup) and he is quite handy...

Of course the world's best footwork and BH slippery pips can be deadly...

Not just that but also arguably the best FH loopkill... tbh he really got bullied by short sidetopspin serves later on which are the best serves for LP to push short with...

 

[blahness]

Haha, tell me about it. Today, as mentioned before, I decided to go to a different club to expose myself to more styles. After months of training, I wanted to start learning how to apply it in games and to find out where I needed to focus on. Boy did I get what I wished for!

First player was an inverted/LP combo guy. He doesn't play 0X LP, but a thin sponged one, and it doesn't invert the spin as much and also allows a more effective hit. I wasn't used to that and was pretty damn confused! Lost that one. Next guy I played was a mostly TPB guy with a solid RPB opening loop. He did exactly what you were talking about with services. First service a fast one to my BH, completely 90 degree blade angle, I can see the whole face of the rubber, and I dump it into the net. I was like uh whaaat? He destroyed me in the service game. You know how you become so focused on receiving services that you actually forget to play the next shot even after you successfully received one with decent quality? That was me lol.

I lost 2 more to 2 of the best double inverted guys too. Again just getting killed in the service receive game. Even with an immature BH I was winning the rallies, basically the only time I'd lose a rally is when I mistime my attack on the BH side. Essentially, when I get an opportunity ball to my BH side, I often hit it wrong whether it's the wrong timing, wrong footwork, or wrong angle. I crushed it in fast rallies. I still need to adjust my BH attack against various tempos, but that's hard to replicate in practice so I'll just have to play some more matches.

The only 2 guys I beat were clearly below my level, but one of them would've given me a game for sure a few months ago, and I beat him handily more than doubling up on points against him.

Yes, serve and receive is the no.1 most important issue in table tennis. This is exactly why Wang Chuqin is so dominant now even though he is way less solid at the rally compared to Fan Zhendong or even Ma Long tbh.

I tend to use a lot of receive methods which are more error tolerant (for eg sideswipes, chiquita) but it's still nowhere as good as a piece of LP. Tbh single side penholders (with no RPB) who don't use LP are just missing out on the upgrade this can bring to their play. I think LP is way stronger than some half baked RPBs I see all the time - it's very difficult to obtain a RPB as good as the shakehand BH tbh, so why bother?

 

[dingyibvs]

Yes, serve and receive is the no.1 most important issue in table tennis. This is exactly why Wang Chuqin is so dominant now even though he is way less solid at the rally compared to Fan Zhendong or even Ma Long tbh.

I tend to use a lot of receive methods which are more error tolerant (for eg sideswipes, chiquita) but it's still nowhere as good as a piece of LP. Tbh single side penholders (with no RPB) who don't use LP are just missing out on the upgrade this can bring to their play. I think LP is way stronger than some half baked RPBs I see all the time - it's very difficult to obtain a RPB as good as the shakehand BH tbh, so why bother?

Yeah, I don't know how pros can seemingly return anything half long or shorter short and low, with such fast setups too. I like to do things in a systematic fashion though, and despite being an adult I'd like to approach my training in the way of kids, getting solid FH/BH fundamentals before moving onto service receives. In an accelerated fashion, of course. Not gonna spend 5 years working on just the fundamentals lol.

With that said, I'm also rather impatient, so maybe I'll start incorporating a little service receive game soon! I mean, it's tough to lose just based on the service receive game. One of the double inverted guy I lost to I was so much better in rallies, but the combination of poor service receives and backing off the table whenever I do so just killed me.

 

[blahness]

Yeah, I don't know how pros can seemingly return anything half long or shorter short and low, with such fast setups too. I like to do things in a systematic fashion though, and despite being an adult I'd like to approach my training in the way of kids, getting solid FH/BH fundamentals before moving onto service receives. In an accelerated fashion, of course. Not gonna spend 5 years working on just the fundamentals lol.

With that said, I'm also rather impatient, so maybe I'll start incorporating a little service receive game soon! I mean, it's tough to lose just based on the service receive game. One of the double inverted guy I lost to I was so much better in rallies, but the combination of poor service receives and backing off the table whenever I do so just killed me.

Short push is about technique really - once you know how to do it you can short push with anything you want. The biggest problem is actually judgment of the spin and placement of the serve, and good servers will make your life hell trying to do it. Good receivers watch the ball trajectory to decipher the serve, if you look at racket movements they're designed to deceive you...but imo this is the real difficult part of table tennis. I can't do it well either - and it's even harder after a long day of computer based work.

Even better servers not only disguise racket movements but also the trajectory too. And then it really becomes a huge nightmare to receive. This is why, it's just easier for amateurs to go pips and avoid all this serve receive nonsense easily.

Inverted rubber receive is basically the hard way of playing table tennis....

 

[Der_Echte]

A TT friend here in Boston took me to a Chinese community center... that place had over a dozen table ! I met their coach and exchanged some words and conversation, played vs him in a match and he had his players coming to me one by one for how to BH hit or loop, finally got a doubles match in...

One of their members will pick me up today and I will likely give free coaching for a couple hrs and transition to doubles play.

I am surprised at how extensive this place was... they even had a room with robot/net...

Most of their players are untrained players... but hot damn they all love the sport !

 

[Jslick89]

A TT friend here in Boston took me to a Chinese community center... that place had over a dozen table ! I met their coach and exchanged some words and conversation, played vs him in a match and he had his players coming to me one by one for how to BH hit or loop, finally got a doubles match in...

One of their members will pick me up today and I will likely give free coaching for a couple hrs and transition to doubles play.

I am surprised at how extensive this place was... they even had a room with robot/net...

Most of their players are untrained players... but hot damn they all love the sport !

pics??

 

[Gozo Aruna]

So, I am back at being coached again.

1. Me to Coach: I smash / flat-hit all the time. Is it a bad thing? I mean I should loop & spin everything right? At least that is what I get from other more experienced players. Also, I want to loop like those WTT pros. I wanna look cool like those WTT pros. Reckon it'll ramp up my YT channel views.
2. Coach to me: Not all balls are created equal. If the ball is high, why loop? Just smash it. Loop only if ball is low or with back-spin.
3. Then it occurred to me, perhaps I smash a lot because of the level of players around me, that is, they give me lots of opportunity to smash.
4. Coach to me again: Yours is not 100% smash / flat-hitting. There is still spin in it, more like a drive.

 

[NextLevel]

So, I am back at being coached again.

1. Me to Coach: I smash / flat-hit all the time. Is it a bad thing? I mean I should loop & spin everything right? At least that is what I get from other more experienced players. Also, I want to loop like those WTT pros. I wanna look cool like those WTT pros. Reckon it'll ramp up my YT channel views.
2. Coach to me: Not all balls are created equal. If the ball is high, why loop? Just smash it. Loop only if ball is low or with back-spin.
3. Then it occurred to me, perhaps I smash a lot because of the level of players around me, that is, they give me lots of opportunity to smash.
4. Coach to me again: Yours is not 100% smash / flat-hitting. There is still spin in it, more like a drive.

One of my friends today was complaining that Quadri struggles with some players because he doesn't smash. And we had a debate over whether it makes more sense to topspin every ball even if it means you have to rally more vs having both a smash and a topspin and then using the topspin on low balls and the smash/flatter drive on higher balls. We didn't agree in the end, but let me say this: there are many players at the top level who topspin everything except the high lob or the controllable ball close to the net. It is easier to learn to spin everything, and then add more power when the ball looks easier than to learn to smash everything and then try to add more spin when under pressure.

But yes, it is a combination of your love for smashing and the quality of players you play against (or really the chances they give you). As you play players who play tighter and you look for ways to win, certain things become necessary and some things become so hard, you stop doing them if you want to win.

 

[dingyibvs]

Short push is about technique really - once you know how to do it you can short push with anything you want. The biggest problem is actually judgment of the spin and placement of the serve, and good servers will make your life hell trying to do it. Good receivers watch the ball trajectory to decipher the serve, if you look at racket movements they're designed to deceive you...but imo this is the real difficult part of table tennis. I can't do it well either - and it's even harder after a long day of computer based work.

Even better servers not only disguise racket movements but also the trajectory too. And then it really becomes a huge nightmare to receive. This is why, it's just easier for amateurs to go pips and avoid all this serve receive nonsense easily.

Inverted rubber receive is basically the hard way of playing table tennis....

Well I welcome the challenge! Also kinda amped to finally play some defense. I guess in some ways it's kinda good to be not that good, so much room for improvement! I'm really pretty pumped after last night at the Alameda club. I felt like I lost plenty to see the challenges ahead, yet played well enough to be very encouraged with my progress.

I plan to play there more often in the coming days, and I aim to conquer that club in the next few months!

 

[Der_Echte]

pics??

Maybe from Sat action...

 

[Der_Echte]

Well I welcome the challenge! Also kinda amped to finally play some defense. I guess in some ways it's kinda good to be not that good, so much room for improvement! I'm really pretty pumped after last night at the Alameda club. I felt like I lost plenty to see the challenges ahead, yet played well enough to be very encouraged with my progress.

I plan to play there more often in the coming days, and I aim to conquer that club in the next few months!

Did you play the old lefty with old Tenergy and old long pips???

 

[Der_Echte]

Hard to see in that gym... some lights are flickering... they open doors and you have glare... the skylight is glare during daytime...

... the tables are friction like sandpaper... so when people give light underspin slow ball, it stops instead of continuing forward... makes your natural timing wrong and you make errors you never make until you adjust...

... and somehow, it gets real humid real fast there when it is a full gym.

 

[dingyibvs]

Did you play the old lefty with old Tenergy and old long pips???

Sure did!

Hard to see in that gym... some lights are flickering... they open doors and you have glare... the skylight is glare during daytime...

... the tables are friction like sandpaper... so when people give light underspin slow ball, it stops instead of continuing forward... makes your natural timing wrong and you make errors you never make until you adjust...

... and somehow, it gets real humid real fast there when it is a full gym.

Ha the table thing is for real. The flickering is fixed, but the table friction was very annoying. I kept looping backspins long and topspins short due to the additional stop/kick respectively. The humidity was OK initially, but later at night it was deadly!

 

[dingyibvs]

Did you play the old lefty with old Tenergy and old long pips???

Segue from this, he prompted me to add a new practice to my regimen. So I've been working a good bit of the in-then-out movement for my opening loop, which comes up open when I receive something short to my FH and then get a long push to my BH. I've noticed this tactic to be quite effective against a lot of players, and against me as well, so I've practiced it a lot and gotten quite good at it.

What I noticed during my doubles play, which I do a lot of at the Pleasanton club, is that the reverse, my out-then-in movement on my BH side is very poor. In doubles after I hit a shot I usually dodge to the side and back, but while I can do OK coming back in for a FH shot afterwards, I can't do it on the BH side at all. I knew that was a weakness, but didn't think it'd be too useful for the singles game so haven't practiced it much. Playing against this lefty LP guy he was pretty good at dropping the ball fairly short, and being a lefty it was often at an angle/location I'm not too used to, so I'm extra slow getting into position for the next shot. This made me realize I need to practice this shot as well, with a focus on the BH side.

I did that on Friday with the robot, making myself stand about 4-5 feet away from the table to the FH side, then coming in and left to hit a shot of variable depth, spin, and location to the BH side. The practice didn't go so well, so I wasn't really expecting anything, but today my BH shot in doubles was finally landing! I guess just by getting used to the footwork and body positioning was a big step forward. Glad I identified something through match play that I could work on on my own.

 

[Der_Echte]

My last visit to the Alameda TT Gym I played vs that LH guy with old rubbers... he looks to attack anything when it suits him with either rubber.

I went down 0-2 with tight sets and all kind of bad breaks going against me. In game three, he got SIX !!! nets/edges to go up 6 points with me serving 3-9. I just told myself to win a point, then another, then said he didn't get 11 points yet.

I ended up winning game 3 at 12-10 then won the next two games.

It was wierd. I was headed for a very bad loss... on the real brink of it and ended up not losing. Difference between a 0-3 loss and a 3-2 win was a point or two.

The adjustment on the slow weak underspin on those friction tables is to step up a half step and wait a a little more.

 

[dingyibvs]

Went back to the Alameda club with the lessons in mind today, and did way better! Started off against the same ~1600 guy I beat last time. He's a standard 2-wing looper with very standard services, so easy work for me and a good way to get used to the tables there.

I played against 3 other guys I played on Wednesday. First the lefty LP guy who beat me 3-1 last time, but I beat him pretty easily 3-0 this time. Then the Cpen guy who's the highest rated guy Wed and today, and while I lost 3-0 all sets this time were by 2 points. He just had a couple extra tricks up his sleeve when the game is tight. Then another 2-wing looper who absolutely destroyed me with his hook serve last time and won the last 2 sets 11-4 I think. This time I pushed him to 5 sets, ended up falling short as I just made too many mistakes in the end.

I played against 2 new guys, won one and lost one. I didn't put up much of a fight against the higher rated guy, but I played him in the 2nd match and just wasn't used to the tables there yet. I doubt I'd beat him if I had played him later, but he has a bit of a more defensive style as a 2-wing looper which I typically do well against.

Overall, much, much better performance. Helps that it's not too cold and too humid for sure. My BH counters were pretty on point, had some long BH-BH rallies, but really need the finishing touch with the BH drive. Also need to improve my FH consistency, I think I'm gonna start working on that a bit more now too. It's been too long since I neglected my FH. Now that I can create opportunities with my BH, I need to finish points with my FH more consistently.

 

[dingyibvs]

Also, I think I need to bring more than just water if I'm gonna play a lot. I took a shower and a nap after I got home. When I was in bed I was fumbling left and right to pet my cat and look for my phone, in the process of a few minutes I got 4 separate cramps in 4 different areas. I think I'm gonna buy some electrolyte powder to mix in my water.

 

[Der_Echte]

Also, I think I need to bring more than just water if I'm gonna play a lot. I took a shower and a nap after I got home. When I was in bed I was fumbling left and right to pet my cat and look for my phone, in the process of a few minutes I got 4 separate cramps in 4 different areas. I think I'm gonna buy some electrolyte powder to mix in my water.

Hi @dingyibvs ,

I notice with myself that my cramps come from heavy exertion over long time in the day... so if I ball real hard 3+ hours on one day or three days in a row... I will get cramps anytime at evening or worse, like you after I am in bed and slept a little.

NO FUN to wake up with severe cramp that gets worse and also spreads to another muscle when you try to get up !! Sometimes it is a calf cramp and I get up and now severe hamstring or quad cramp.

Drinking a lot of water seems to flush my minerals out of body and the key one I am short is Magnesium. A big meal can also deplete my mineral stores... so a day or three of long TT with much water followed by big sit down meal is a bad combo for cramps.

When I am in big multi day tourneys, I space out doses of magnesium throughout match day and drink one .5 l bottle of water with a pack of fizzy vita C powder (also has baking soda in it) for every 2 .5l bottles I drink and I seem to maitain well.

My problems happen when I am not in a big tourney and it is easy to not pay attention to the body.

When I do get cramps, I take several tablets of Magnesium - Calcium - Zinc - Vita D... USALLY relief within minutes.

I have also seen some say even sniffing or ingesting some apple cider vinegar works too... the study said it affects a region of the brain that tells body to stop the cramp.