Table Tennis Crisis

[dingyibvs]

He didn't say that.
The not being able to do it IS the thing that's messing up his mind.
He said he was getting stressed, frustrated, agitated and freezing up.
He didn't say he had a mental block but more that competing and losing was screwing him up.
It's a chicken/egg situation but what's the chicken and what's the egg?
It's clear from the videos that he can play.
You're seem to be saying that playing better shots will give a better outcome and 'look beyond the psychological'.
But in this case he has to be able to control his mind better to enable him to do that.
Only then will your tactical or technical advice be helpful.

It's not a chicken/egg situation, it's a cause and effect situation. The inability to cope with varying tempo is causing him to lose games which is causing him to stress out. Forcing shots will cause him to miss more and stress out more.

It's also NOT clear from the videos that he can play those shots. What's clear is that he can do it against higher speed/spin shots. That and his rating gives him the impression that he can do it against lower speed/spin shots mixed in with higher speed/spin ones, but that's often not the case in general and is not the case in his match video.

 

[NetProphet]

It's not a chicken/egg situation, it's a cause and effect situation. The inability to cope with varying tempo is causing him to lose games which is causing him to stress out. Forcing shots will cause him to miss more and stress out more.

It's also NOT clear from the videos that he can play those shots. What's clear is that he can do it against higher speed/spin shots. That and his rating gives him the impression that he can do it against lower speed/spin shots mixed in with higher speed/spin ones, but that's often not the case in general and is not the case in his match video.

If you believe that everything described in post 1 is normal reaction to playing someone better than you then fair enough man. We're gonna agree to disagree on this one.
You advise him to practice and get better and that's great until he plays the next level up and the next level.
I'd advise a mental adjustment and stabilisation so that he can deliver his maximum without expressing nerves anguish / anxiety so strong he won't play any rated events for the next 8 months. Followed by another tournament 8 mths later and freezing up, only chopping, head numb, bad footwork all caused by pressure that he can't alleviate. Followed by another tournament disaster again cos of too much stress and worry.

You're just hatching another egg.

 

[SlowPower]

I am no expert and far behind your raging but for me you technique looks good enough to focus on mental training.
There is a book called "10 minutes toughness" read and improve!

 

[dingyibvs]

If you believe that everything described in post 1 is normal reaction to playing someone better than you then fair enough man. We're gonna agree to disagree on this one.
You advise him to practice and get better and that's great until he plays the next level up and the next level.
I'd advise a mental adjustment and stabilisation so that he can deliver his maximum without expressing nerves anguish / anxiety so strong he won't play any rated events for the next 8 months. Followed by another tournament 8 mths later and freezing up, only chopping, head numb, bad footwork all caused by pressure that he can't alleviate. Followed by another tournament disaster again cos of too much stress and worry.

You're just hatching another egg.

Part of his issue is that he doesn't consider them as better opponents. Losing to 2200 opponents probably would not cause him anguish, he's stressed because he's losing to lower level opponents that he thinks he should beat.

A mental adjustment is indeed needed as well, and the adjustment is as @NextLevel described in more diplomatic phrasing. He needs to realize that losing to lower rated opponents is a sign that there are deficiencies in his game, and that his true rating is probably lower as more matches reveal more holes in his game. Rather than stressing out about it he should welcome that as an opportunity to improve his game. What @zeio, @blahness, and I are suggesting is where his deficiencies possibly are. We're not his coach so everything we say should be taken with a grain of salt, but he came on here to ask for opinions and we're giving him our honest ones based on our personal experiences.

 

[NextLevel]

If you believe that everything described in post 1 is normal reaction to playing someone better than you then fair enough man. We're gonna agree to disagree on this one.
You advise him to practice and get better and that's great until he plays the next level up and the next level.
I'd advise a mental adjustment and stabilisation so that he can deliver his maximum without expressing nerves anguish / anxiety so strong he won't play any rated events for the next 8 months. Followed by another tournament 8 mths later and freezing up, only chopping, head numb, bad footwork all caused by pressure that he can't alleviate. Followed by another tournament disaster again cos of too much stress and worry.

You're just hatching another egg.

If you have played enough tournaments and league matches, nothing @dingyibvs is saying is rocket science. Better players tend to be better by being able to do things at 80% effort that keep them consistent against worse players playing at 110% effort. When someone is stressed about losing to visibly better players, the problem is more about how they view their game than anything else, but it doesn't mean just changing their attitude will make them play better if playing better means better results. Almost all such players are clearly missing the in-between game with max consistency - they know how to play at 100 mph, and how to play at zero mph, but when you ask them to rally at 20 or 40 mph or 60 mph, they turn up their noses at such things in training and in matches because pros supposedly are hitting the ball with power all the time. A better player beats you with his consistency, rarely with his max power. Yes, you do need max power training, but that is not for every situation, just as max consistency training is not for every situation either.

Even look at Fan Zhendong vs Truls Moregardh in the Olympics final, in the beginning of the match, Fan tried to overwhelm Truls with power, probably still living in the afterglow of his semi-finals match vs Felix. But after it became clear that Truls was able to get such balls back and it was putting precisely the kind of pressure of Fan Zhendong that @zeio described when going for high power shots, Fan reigned it in just a little bit without fully changing his game, so that he could remain consistent and play multiple shots and be more selective about when to go for the kill. A lot of your results are determined by the quality of your 70% game, people who are focused on the 100% game delusionally focus on how they play under ideal conditions and somehow forget all the misses when conditions are not ideal and then freeze up when the not ideal condition happens in a tournament match they cannot avoid or forget.

I will go so far as to say that anyone who doesn't build out a 40-70% effort spin based rally/placement game is both technically and psychologically deficient. It's the difference between being a player who can maintain his style against all kinds of opposition vs a player who plays well when things are at one speed, but who freezes up when the game is at a different tempo. The freezing up has side effects which show up when playing against extremely spinny or extremely slow players and other styles in general that mess you up. Sometimes, this includes lower rated players without the quality you are used to. Again, these things are all level relative.

 

[NetProphet]

If you have played enough tournaments and league matches, nothing @dingyibvs is saying is rocket science. Better players tend to be better by being able to do things at 80% effort that keep them consistent against worse players playing at 110% effort. When someone is stressed about losing to visibly better players, the problem is more about how they view their game than anything else, but it doesn't mean just changing their attitude will make them play better if playing better means better results. Almost all such players are clearly missing the in-between game with max consistency - they know how to play at 100 mph, and how to play at zero mph, but when you ask them to rally at 20 or 40 mph or 60 mph, they turn up their noses at such things in training and in matches because pros supposedly are hitting the ball with power all the time. A better player beats you with his consistency, rarely with his max power. Yes, you do need max power training, but that is not for every situation, just as max consistency training is not for every situation either.

Even look at Fan Zhendong vs Truls Moregardh in the Olympics final, in the beginning of the match, Fan tried to overwhelm Truls with power, probably still living in the afterglow of his semi-finals match vs Felix. But after it became clear that Truls was able to get such balls back and it was putting precisely the kind of pressure of Fan Zhendong that @zeio described when going for high power shots, Fan reigned it in just a little bit without fully changing his game, so that he could remain consistent and play multiple shots and be more selective about when to go for the kill. A lot of your results are determined by the quality of your 70% game, people who are focused on the 100% game delusionally focus on how they play under ideal conditions and somehow forget all the misses when conditions are not ideal and then freeze up when the not ideal condition happens in a tournament match they cannot avoid or forget.

I will go so far as to say that anyone who doesn't build out a 40-70% effort spin based rally/placement game is both technically and psychologically deficient. It's the difference between being a player who can maintain his style against all kinds of opposition vs a player who plays well when things are at one speed, but who freezes up when the game is at a different tempo. The freezing up has side effects which show up when playing against extremely spinny or extremely slow players and other styles in general that mess you up. Sometimes, this includes lower rated players without the quality you are used to. Again, these things are all level relative.

Cool. Improvement is good, I'm not refuting that at all.
I'd be interested to know if how you're diagnosing it is actually correct because what I read in post 1 is such a strong overreaction to losing I cannot see how just practice is gonna fix it all. But whatever, we're going around in circles now, all of us to the point of people writing essays to over explain what they've already said, and possibly we'll never know the outcome here but I never met anyone who experienced such anguish, despair and outright helpless, the kind that leads to 8 months off, that had it fixed by technical adjustments.
But maybe all you guys disagreeing with me have met these people, what do I know.
Maybe winning is everything and someone describing catastrophic emotional breakdown is just asking for help against people who spin the ball differently.
Or maybe we'll never know.

 

[NextLevel]

Cool. Improvement is good, I'm not refuting that at all.
I'd be interested to know if how you're diagnosing it is actually correct because what I read in post 1 is such a strong overreaction to losing I cannot see how just practice is gonna fix it all. But whatever, we're going around in circles now, all of us to the point of people writing essays to over explain what they've already said, and possibly we'll never know the outcome here but I never met anyone who experienced such anguish, despair and outright helpless, the kind that leads to 8 months off, that had it fixed by technical adjustments.
But maybe all you guys disagreeing with me have met these people, what do I know.
Maybe winning is everything and someone describing catastrophic emotional breakdown is just asking for help against people who spin the ball differently.
Or maybe we'll never know.

Ratings stress is one of the most common dysfunctional behaviors in sports that use dynamic ELO ratings, whether it is chess, table tennis or something else. Other than the depth of description, what OP is going through isn't that uncommon, people just tell it or handle it differently. Some people once they get to a rating they have worked hard for just stop playing for a long period of time to enjoy it. Some never play after they hit their ratings goal to preserve it. Some people won't play problem opponents when ratings are on the line. I have even seen people who don't enter events where they can play with people around their level or lower and who only enter events where they play up so that they cannot lose ratings points. Some take advantage of system quirks to get a rating that makes no sense and then don't play enough or with the right opponents to fix it. And all these sorts of behaviors are practiced by even people who handle ratings well at different points in life, showing that they are not necessarily immutable behaviors but things you can do and change.

The sooner one gets past ratings as an achievement level and settles into close to their best game and just enjoys tournament play and trying to win events if that is their thing, the better their mental health becomes. Many of these traits are especially common in people who like preserve the idea that they can quantify their continuous improvement without any nuanced appreciation of the side effects and limitations of such claims. Losing matches to lower rated players become major indicators that they are not as good as they thought they were rather than just information and results that need to be used to figure out what to improve upon if anything (they dont simply accept that lower rated players can improve snd play well too).

So no, OP might be a unicorn in his honesty but his behavior has sources that are neither uncommon or foreign to tournament players in ELO ratings systems.

 

[NetProphet]

OP might be a unicorn in his honesty but his behavior has sources that are neither uncommon or foreign to tournament players in ELO ratings systems.

You really think that described reaction is common.....
I know what's common and normal in competitive sporting situations and the reaction and dejection described is not common at all. It's actually quite uncommon for people to spiral to that level of apathy in regards to something they love.
I take your points (and those from many others) about how to improve at TT seriously and they will help me also but we definitely disagree on the other side of things.

 

[NextLevel]

You really think that described reaction is common.....
I know what's common and normal in competitive sporting situations and the reaction and dejection described is not common at all. It's actually quite uncommon for people to spiral to that level of apathy in regards to something they love.
I take your points (and those from many others) about how to improve at TT seriously and they will help me also but we definitely disagree on the other side of things.

Let's put it this way - if you took ratings out of the picture, almost all of our OP's issues would disappear. He would stop obsessing over the results and focus more on how to win broadly and close his technical deficiencies.

My point is not that his reaction is common as in that it is sourced in something common which i have seen with many players. There are sometimes extreme reactions to such things . Note that he still plays a lot of table tennis, even competes in his club, it is his playing tournaments that are an issue and his tension while playing in those events.

The reason my coach could relate to me and I can relate to lots of players is that I was a beginner as an adult. So I remember all the crap that most advanced players take for granted. And since I know players in the US, including forum members here and on mytt, I can assure you that this behavior is a side effect of ratings.

 

[zeio]

If you have played enough tournaments and league matches, nothing @dingyibvs is saying is rocket science. Better players tend to be better by being able to do things at 80% effort that keep them consistent against worse players playing at 110% effort. When someone is stressed about losing to visibly better players, the problem is more about how they view their game than anything else, but it doesn't mean just changing their attitude will make them play better if playing better means better results. Almost all such players are clearly missing the in-between game with max consistency - they know how to play at 100 mph, and how to play at zero mph, but when you ask them to rally at 20 or 40 mph or 60 mph, they turn up their noses at such things in training and in matches because pros supposedly are hitting the ball with power all the time. A better player beats you with his consistency, rarely with his max power. Yes, you do need max power training, but that is not for every situation, just as max consistency training is not for every situation either.

Even look at Fan Zhendong vs Truls Moregardh in the Olympics final, in the beginning of the match, Fan tried to overwhelm Truls with power, probably still living in the afterglow of his semi-finals match vs Felix. But after it became clear that Truls was able to get such balls back and it was putting precisely the kind of pressure of Fan Zhendong that @zeio described when going for high power shots, Fan reigned it in just a little bit without fully changing his game, so that he could remain consistent and play multiple shots and be more selective about when to go for the kill. A lot of your results are determined by the quality of your 70% game, people who are focused on the 100% game delusionally focus on how they play under ideal conditions and somehow forget all the misses when conditions are not ideal and then freeze up when the not ideal condition happens in a tournament match they cannot avoid or forget.

I will go so far as to say that anyone who doesn't build out a 40-70% effort spin based rally/placement game is both technically and psychologically deficient. It's the difference between being a player who can maintain his style against all kinds of opposition vs a player who plays well when things are at one speed, but who freezes up when the game is at a different tempo. The freezing up has side effects which show up when playing against extremely spinny or extremely slow players and other styles in general that mess you up. Sometimes, this includes lower rated players without the quality you are used to. Again, these things are all level relative.

An even more fitting example was Hirano after winning ATTC 2017, whose technical deficiency/loophole got exploited by DN first at WTTC 2017 as revealed by Li Sun, which then turned into a psychological trauma (she thought she couldn't lose to non-CNT players and almost wound up rage-quitting) and arguably what ultimately cost her the WS spot for Tokyo 2020. Miyazaki talked about it in one episode of a series by Takurepo in 2020.

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/foru...99&title=on-miu-hiranos-recent-status#1462299
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...-be-revamped-for-paris-2024.24977/post-441191

 

[Caskal]

Hi guys, I just want to say a massive THANKS to everybody for their support and great advice, meant a lot on that moment that I was struggling.

Update on my end, my idea was to take 1 or 2 weeks break, but of course, I coudln't hold more than 3 days lol, some of the comments stuck in my mind, and really changed my game, for example, I started to play more loose, in the past, when I tried that, I lost the form, but now I'm able to play loose and keep the form, and for my surprise, I'm giving a ton more spin and shoot quality than when I try to hit hard like stupid, also I'm saving energy, love it!

I also worked on the pushes with my coach, he eliminated some unnecesary backswing that I was doing, as well as fixed my angle, now my chops go with better tragectory and quality, is a new weapon.

Also started doing some more in-game / random drills, so getting some reaction automated, but I think the biggest change was playing loose, that even took all the rigid that I had trying to control my strokes, even calmed my mind!

P.S: going to Las Vegas for the US open on december, hopefully I'll be able to play better this time.

Thanks again! this forum is amazing.

Cheers!

 

[lodro]

Forcing big shots (higher motor unit recruitment = lower fine motor control) in that state will only worsen the situation.

A lot of really good player screw up when going for the kill-shot. They act like it needed something "extra" and this gets them physically completely out of balance. Their shots are mostly going long but sometimes in the net. Even when the shot lands, they are absolutely not capable of dealing with the return shot because in their mind they were already finished. Strength-wise a 80% shot, executed with a cool head and nicely placed will always win over the 110% kill-shot.

 

[Der_Echte]

Hi guys, I just want to say a massive THANKS to everybody for their support and great advice, meant a lot on that moment that I was struggling.

Update on my end, my idea was to take 1 or 2 weeks break, but of course, I coudln't hold more than 3 days lol, some of the comments stuck in my mind, and really changed my game, for example, I started to play more loose, in the past, when I tried that, I lost the form, but now I'm able to play loose and keep the form, and for my surprise, I'm giving a ton more spin and shoot quality than when I try to hit hard like stupid, also I'm saving energy, love it!

I also worked on the pushes with my coach, he eliminated some unnecesary backswing that I was doing, as well as fixed my angle, now my chops go with better tragectory and quality, is a new weapon.

Also started doing some more in-game / random drills, so getting some reaction automated, but I think the biggest change was playing loose, that even took all the rigid that I had trying to control my strokes, even calmed my mind!

P.S: going to Las Vegas for the US open on december, hopefully I'll be able to play better this time.

Thanks again! this forum is amazing.

Cheers!

Look for Der_Echte and Sergey the Tsos over there among the hundreds... Sergey, the undisputed USA master of H3 treatment and usage hands down, who will soon be on the forum.

 

[Caskal]

Look for Der_Echte and Sergey the Tsos over there among the hundreds... Sergey, the undisputed USA master of H3 treatment and usage hands down, who will soon be on the forum.

Sergey you mean the russian player / coach that used to teach on westide table tennis?

 

[Der_Echte]

Hi @Caskal,

I have been at Westside a few times on visits and have friends there, Kyle m among others.

I am speaking of Sergey the Tsos Tsvor, who is a 2100-2200 player and has the most practical know-how about all things H3. He is really famous on TTD.

Here is a pic of us at Dr Le's OCTTA club from last year's veterans championships.

 

[Der_Echte]

Here is a pic of him taken from the 2021 888 teams. You will run into us and a lot of other new friends, will hook you up with a few more ringers like Ali, whose rating is 500 points below his play level, just like much of the good LA based players.

 

[Der_Echte]

Here is the pic 888 took of me that your. You will surely spot us and say HEY Der_Echte.

 

[Der_Echte]

A lot of really good player screw up when going for the kill-shot. They act like it needed something "extra" and this gets them physically completely out of balance. Their shots are mostly going long but sometimes in the net. Even when the shot lands, they are absolutely not capable of dealing with the return shot because in their mind they were already finished. Strength-wise a 80% shot, executed with a cool head and nicely placed will always win over the 110% kill-shot.

Hey @lodro

When I speak to players about how they lose points, this is the number one thing killing them... going for too much on shots... going for too much when100 percent is not needed... going for a swing with way more motion than needed... going for full power when out of position/leverage... these variations of the same thing gets amateur players into the most trouble.

There is nothing short of outright purposely giving away the point that leads to lost points than going for too much when it isn't need.

I call this controlling Dracula.

Why? Dracula gets an ever-increasing lust to act impulsively powerful. We as players should not want to get all wild like Dracula.

Many of us have very similar urges and impulses to act wild undisciplined unreasonable during points. if we can control that enough to play more sensible shots, we stay in and win more points, instead of pissing them away.

 

[blahness]

A lot of really good player screw up when going for the kill-shot. They act like it needed something "extra" and this gets them physically completely out of balance. Their shots are mostly going long but sometimes in the net. Even when the shot lands, they are absolutely not capable of dealing with the return shot because in their mind they were already finished. Strength-wise a 80% shot, executed with a cool head and nicely placed will always win over the 110% kill-shot.

Yepppp sure, but there is nothing sweeter than nailing an outrageous FH pivot loopkill or even better, a C-shaped chiquita loopkill to their wide FH or a no-look flick, and then having the opponent glare at you xD.

Sometimes it is not about winning, but sending a message lol.

But I agree that it is much better to stay disciplined, make a safe steady spinny shot and then recover swiftly and play out the rally, and always try to have 1 more shot than the opponent.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

In his book 乒乓球有意思/Ping Pong Interesting, Wu Jingping goes into detail on LGY's FH being his downfall and why he didn't think highly of him from the very beginning.

吴敬平10年前就说不看好林高远，他有个技术问题太致命还改不了！-乒乓国球汇
https://www.sohu.com/a/607747373_555700


WJP delved into that in one of many paid Q&A sessions on his Weibo in 2017 and ML's BH issue against WH started from the serve and receive.

https://www.douban.com/group/topic/242886279

So is LGY now finally on the way to semi-retirement or getting forced out of the main squad? Seems like there are several indications of that.