Why do people say LP's should be banned?

[Peter93]

I waited to read this topic (again about studs) for a while. Even though we used to have a lot of problems against material players (SP, LP and Anti) (during my training time, years ago), we have learnt to play against them over the years. Sometimes successfully sometimes not. This led me to the observation that everything is playable, as long as you practice enough and keep your head up.
Still, I maintain that LP should be banned. It has nothing to do with table tennis rather the game you play in a garage among friends, ping pong that is. LPs defy all logic of table tennis sport and physics. It is not logical that players who are serious about learning table tennis and spend hours behind the table that they lose to players who play with equipment. This means that playing with materials does offer advantages.
Agreed, those players too had to learn to play with this kind of material but then you have to ask the question why did they turn to this kind of material? (Technical deficiencies? Old age? Physical limitations?) I never believe a kid enters a club with a wood/racket with studs on it under his arm.
At all levels, you see technically better players having difficulties or even losing to material players. Not very logical!
In no other sport do you see so many situations to score points in a non-regulatory manner. And that ranges from material choice to illegal services.

My opinion/finding, no one has to agree with it of course.

By definition that means they aren't better. If you don't know how to play against long pips, especially now with the larger plastic ball, ban on frictionless long pips, the aspect ratio rule, and the pimple density rule, I don't know what to tell you other than you simply aren't good enough. If you're spending hours training and having problems against long pips players, the problem is you. You should consider actually trying to get better.

If you lose to someone and your first thought is "we should ban this", that's baby brained behavior.

 

[JJ Ng]

By definition that means they aren't better. If you don't know how to play against long pips, especially now with the larger plastic ball, ban on frictionless long pips, the aspect ratio rule, and the pimple density rule, I don't know what to tell you other than you simply aren't good enough. If you're spending hours training and having problems against long pips players, the problem is you. You should consider actually trying to get better.

If you lose to someone and your first thought is "we should ban this", that's baby brained behavior.

I agree. But let us not be too harsh on them either.

I play at a club where most players are adult players who are not classically trained (i.e. trained by a coach growing up). They are having a hard time figuring out how to play inverted. To add long pips and anti to the mix, they are easily upset.

Other players including me who were trained growing up but stepped away from the sport for decade(s) before coming back to the sport, playing against long pips is easier.

Like I said, I enjoy playing with them a couple times a week. Helps me practice looping.

However, I don't want to play them everyday either as that could mess up my timing.

I do feel that long pips adds more fun and variation to the game. Best points are attackers playing against high level choppers; those matches definitely look good on tv!!!! But two long-pips players playing each other, no matter how good their levels are, just looks bad on tv.

I think it was Xiaoxin Yang playing one of the Indian ladies. Even though I have played table tennis and understand how long-pip/anti works, I could not watch it on YouTube. It was really really boring....

 

[Gozo Aruna]

The only venom the pips have is our unfamiliarity with it. Play with a pipster solely for a month; betcha they ain't never gonna trouble you no moar!

BTW: Ban the pips has a nice ring to it compared to Ban the inverted. It rolls off nicely from one's tongue.

Ban the pips!
Ban the pips!
Pitchfork and torches!
Ban the pips!
Ban the pips!
Witches and Pipsters!
Ban the pips!
Ban the pips!
Pitches and torches!

 

[Kopp]

By definition that means they aren't better. If you don't know how to play against long pips, especially now with the larger plastic ball, ban on frictionless long pips, the aspect ratio rule, and the pimple density rule, I don't know what to tell you other than you simply aren't good enough. If you're spending hours training and having problems against long pips players, the problem is you. You should consider actually trying to get better.

If you lose to someone and your first thought is "we should ban this", that's baby brained behavior.

Do you think you are good enough? Is it really helpful to tell people they're not good?

Some players may think pips-out rubber should be banned for various reasons, and their opinions deserve respect, and that does not mean they are not good!

 

[Ghostzen]

Do you think you are good enough? Is it really helpful to tell people they're not good?

Some players may think pips-out rubber should be banned for various reasons, and their opinions deserve respect, and that does not mean they are not good!

Honestly, respect totally agree. If it's a fun knockabout and it impacts on enjoyment of the members who are enjoying a recreational game. Tricky.

If playing serious competition... Its having to adapt or lose. Personally try and adapt, work the problem and find a way to try and win. Pips, anti on their own isn't a match winning strategy at a serious standard. It's the opening they can create. Like a good serve, a strong forehand or backhand etc. All tools in a competitive players arsenal. Some are more common, so not so much.

watching TT can be very subjective I think as well. . defensive vs attack, loop to loop, lobs pick your poison. It's what the audience like. Nothing wrong with that.

Wanting to ban or not ban. Either opinion is good. Depending on where the person is coming from.

 

[Kopp]

Honestly, respect totally agree. If it's a fun knockabout and it impacts on enjoyment of the members who are enjoying a recreational game. Tricky.

If playing serious competition... Its having to adapt or lose. Personally try and adapt, work the problem and find a way to try and win. Pips, anti on their own isn't a match winning strategy at a serious standard. It's the opening they can create. Like a good serve, a strong forehand or backhand etc. All tools in a competitive players arsenal. Some are more common, so not so much.

watching TT can be very subjective I think as well. . defensive vs attack, loop to loop, lobs pick your poison. It's what the audience like. Nothing wrong with that.

Wanting to ban or not ban. Either opinion is good. Depending on where the person is coming from.

Agree.

Take Waldner for an example. Does anyone think he enjoyed playing against LGL, who used a forehand pips-out rubber that was judged to be too advantageous and subsequently banned?

Let say, JOW didn't enjoy it, doesn't mean he's not good, does he?

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Speaking solely as a recreational player.
Inverted vs Inverted rubber; One can do FH to FH stroke 20 / 30 / 40 strokes no problem.
Inverted vs pimple; Below five hit, you have to stop and pick up ball.
Which is fun, which is not...
Now you know why rec players hate pimple. Pick up balls more than hitting ball. Same goes with game. No rally. It is either you die or I die, quickly. No rally.

 

[brokenball]

Speaking solely as a recreational player.
Inverted vs Inverted rubber; One can do FH to FH stroke 20 / 30 / 40 strokes no problem.
Inverted vs pimple; Below five hit, you have to stop and pick up ball.
Which is fun, which is not...
Now you know why rec players hate pimple. Pick up balls more than hitting ball. Same goes with game. No rally. It is either you die or I die, quickly. No rally.

@Gozo, you posted a recent video where you hit the ball into the net. Your previous stroke was a top spin and it came back with back spin which you hit into the net. This is a no brainer. I play with LP 0X in push blocker mode at time.
My practice partners have played against me in push blocker mode so often that the know what to do. The rallies are very long since we are waiting for the other person to make a mistake. They know how to play against LP. It is only mental lapses that cause them to make mistakes.

Before the virus I played at the local club. There was a person there that played with LP. He couldn't find people to play with him but I played with him with my double inverted paddle. I know how to play against LP. We had a good practice.

I don't care what the other guy is using. There is NO spin that he can put on the ball with "junk' rubber that can't be done with inverted rubber. I have found that maximum backspin is generated by choppers with inverted rubber that are made for chopping.

 

[JJ Ng]

@Gozo, you posted a recent video where you hit the ball into the net. Your previous stroke was a top spin and it came back with back spin which you hit into the net. This is a no brainer. I play with LP 0X in push blocker mode at time.
My practice partners have played against me in push blocker mode so often that the know what to do. The rallies are very long since we are waiting for the other person to make a mistake. They know how to play against LP. It is only mental lapses that cause them to make mistakes.

Before the virus I played at the local club. There was a person there that played with LP. He couldn't find people to play with him but I played with him with my double inverted paddle. I know how to play against LP. We had a good practice.

I don't care what the other guy is using. There is NO spin that he can put on the ball with "junk' rubber that can't be done with inverted rubber. I have found that maximum backspin is generated by choppers with inverted rubber that are made for chopping.

I practice slow, spinny topspin loops with my long pip partner at the club. I can do 10-15 strokes easily on my forehand side (my backhand side is another story).

It is fun to try to keep the loops on the table and at the same location so my partner would not run out of breath moving.

I also have to try not to loop too hard because the ball would usually float out of the table on my side.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Do you think you are good enough? Is it really helpful to tell people they're not good?

Some players may think pips-out rubber should be banned for various reasons, and their opinions deserve respect, and that does not mean they are not good!

I don't play baseball, but when I go and hit that ball, the ball must come straight to me
no curves balls allowed, as i'm not good enough.
Now, do we go and ban things to suit amateurs or part timers?

Honestly, speaking, I always want 2 rule books
one that is ITTF for pros and then the amateurs can set another rules.
But you see, people are lazy and just have 1 set, which is impossible to follow fully - even at national level events in many countries (ie lighting, temp control, flooring etc)

So again, is table tennis a professional sport, or sport for amateurs (ping pong game in the garage)
amateurs will obviously only have the views of such.
But then I'm looking at both 3rd world tt countries and 1st worlds.
and it is clear, the problem isn't in the pips.
its just some lame excuse when things don't work out as they should.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Agree.

Take Waldner for an example. Does anyone think he enjoyed playing against LGL, who used a forehand pips-out rubber that was judged to be too advantageous and subsequently banned?

Let say, JOW didn't enjoy it, doesn't mean he's not good, does he?

your data is mass, only 1 user and you ban the whole range? haha
who are the other magical pip users that gave waldner an "didn't enjoy it"?

I actually believe LGL didn't enjoy playing against JO more, so you probably got it the other way around.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Speaking solely as a recreational player.
Inverted vs Inverted rubber; One can do FH to FH stroke 20 / 30 / 40 strokes no problem.
Inverted vs pimple; Below five hit, you have to stop and pick up ball.
Which is fun, which is not...
Now you know why rec players hate pimple. Pick up balls more than hitting ball. Same goes with game. No rally. It is either you die or I die, quickly. No rally.

If you, as a recreational player can do 20+ of FH to FH in a row, you aren't really recreational player any more.
I'm sure you won't get more than 3 FH to FH hits with me.

Most recreational I know do pick up balls a lot more times, and that is already against inverted players.
You make it sound like, it only happens with pips, and not inverted - which is a bit too one sided don't you think?

and btw, weak against strong player, is just like that, you die and I don't die and there are no rallies.
that is why table tennis is so difficult to master and you can try hardbats for something more "fair"

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

The only venom the pips have is our unfamiliarity with it. Play with a pipster solely for a month; betcha they ain't never gonna trouble you no moar!

For people who want to play different, I am able to forsee that they could still use inverted to chop block and make things awkward for you.

the problem is, you want the ball coming onto you nicely.
you don't want weird spins and inverted can do plenty of that too.

Ma Lin was the master of penhold chop block for example.
It was more deadlier in 38mm days, as you can really slow the ball down and don't let it bounce.
with 40+ it is no longer feasible.
It is way more popular in SH style today and with someone like Truls, I don't think you will have fun playing against.

Once you start banning things non stop to remove obstacles, there isn't really anything stopping you until we all end up hardbats

 

[blahness]

The only venom the pips have is our unfamiliarity with it. Play with a pipster solely for a month; betcha they ain't never gonna trouble you no moar!

BTW: Ban the pips has a nice ring to it compared to Ban the inverted. It rolls off nicely from one's tongue.

Ban the pips!
Ban the pips!
Pitchfork and torches!
Ban the pips!
Ban the pips!
Witches and Pipsters!
Ban the pips!
Ban the pips!
Pitches and torches!

Speaking solely as a recreational player.
Inverted vs Inverted rubber; One can do FH to FH stroke 20 / 30 / 40 strokes no problem.
Inverted vs pimple; Below five hit, you have to stop and pick up ball.
Which is fun, which is not...
Now you know why rec players hate pimple. Pick up balls more than hitting ball. Same goes with game. No rally. It is either you die or I die, quickly. No rally.

Gozo, it's no use complaining, you just gotta join them haha... just slap an anti on your BH and I reckon you'll play 2 levels higher at least given your current lack of a inverted BH game anyway....

Not sure why you're persisting in the inverted path lol, i feel like it's just a bit of masochistic tendency to play double inverted at your age...

If I became like 40-50 yr old I'll be using anti on my BH too.

I tried an older guy's anti (it was pink in colour, not too sure which model it was) the other day and it was surprisingly quite accessible. A lot of my shots worked fine even the chiquita (lol it was funny to see it working against short serves). Attacking backspin was easy peasy too.

Ffs I am even tempted to give it a try. This will make me immune in serve receive and given how strong my serves already are it'll be a killer combo. The anti sideswipe will probably destroy quite a lot of ppl (the inverted version is already quite disgusting to play against lol)

 

[kapahoo]

By definition that means they aren't better. If you don't know how to play against long pips, especially now with the larger plastic ball, ban on frictionless long pips, the aspect ratio rule, and the pimple density rule, I don't know what to tell you other than you simply aren't good enough. If you're spending hours training and having problems against long pips players, the problem is you. You should consider actually trying to get better.

If you lose to someone and your first thought is "we should ban this", that's baby brained behavior.

It's got nothing, or at least very little, to do with winning or losing. Playing against long pips is just not a joyful sport.
Maybe LP shouldn't be banned totally but it would be nice with competitions with a "non-LP"-event/class.

 

[Nima Abadi]

the problem is, you want the ball coming onto you nicely.
you don't want weird spins and inverted can do plenty of that too.

I think you're looking at this a bit unfairly. I enjoy training against LP players since I have to focus on quality and reading the spin above anything else.

But I hate the fact that their equipment mechanism is totally different and you need to have a high level adaptability to play against them since each LP rubber reacts totally differently to incoming spin. Some can completely reverse the spin, but some can only nullify the spin giving you deadballs and some can only reduce the incoming spin. In a match, you have to figure out fast what you're going up against or you will simply lose before you can adjust.

I like the variation they bring to the table but I'm not a fan that their equipment mechanics are different. In any other sports, different mechanics would lead to different sub-divisions (like in swimming) or different sports altogether.

A certain level of equipment uniformity is present is every major sport which to me, LPs don't have with regular inverted rubbers, and that's my problem. You can't use a tennis racket that has a different mechanics than the regular ones, same thing with squash/badminton rackets, same thing with boxing gloves, MMA gloves or baseball/cricket bats.

Should it be banned or not or have its own thing, that's another question.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Gozo, it's no use complaining, you just gotta join them haha... just slap an anti on your BH and I reckon you'll play 2 levels higher at least given your current lack of a inverted BH game anyway....

Not sure why you're persisting in the inverted path lol, i feel like it's just a bit of masochistic tendency to play double inverted at your age...

If I became like 40-50 yr old I'll be using anti on my BH too.

I tried an older guy's anti (it was pink in colour, not too sure which model it was) the other day and it was surprisingly quite accessible. A lot of my shots worked fine even the chiquita (lol it was funny to see it working against short serves). Attacking backspin was easy peasy too.

Ffs I am even tempted to give it a try. This will make me immune in serve receive and given how strong my serves already are it'll be a killer combo. The anti sideswipe will probably destroy quite a lot of ppl (the inverted version is already quite disgusting to play against lol)

@blahness
Slap on an Anti and take a video of your play. I want to see if it is as what you describe, that is, it will be a killer combo.

The thing is, blahness, I am a sucker for marketing. I see pro on the circuit doing their thang! It is amazing! It is marvelous. Screaming college going fan-girls: The adulations & the adorations! Monkey see, monkey do.

Slap on a pips here, slap on an anti there, and what do you get? Elderly or geriatrics style of play. Stand in the middle of the table, move at most half a step here and there while blocking, blocking and more blocking and more blocking. It sure ain't sexy!

 

[Der_Echte]

Wath this old, not so athletic 2150ish 2x inverted dude trouble the heck outta a conventional USATT 2400ish rated 2x inverted attacker... inverted can do weird stuff too. Should that be banned?

 

[Lazer]

@blahness
Slap on an Anti and take a video of your play. I want to see if it is as what you describe, that is, it will be a killer combo.

The thing is, blahness, I am a sucker for marketing. I see pro on the circuit doing their thang! It is amazing! It is marvelous. Screaming college going fan-girls: The adulations & the adorations! Monkey see, monkey do.

Slap on a pips here, slap on an anti there, and what do you get? Elderly or geriatrics style of play. Stand on the middle of the table, move at most half a step here and there while blocking, blocking and more blocking and more block. It sure ain't sexy!

Hey, Gozo, Xu Xin is a leftie, that’s definitely an unfair advantage, he should be banned…

Cheers
L-zr

 

[Ghostzen]

Agree.

Take Waldner for an example. Does anyone think he enjoyed playing against LGL, who used a forehand pips-out rubber that was judged to be too advantageous and subsequently banned?

Let say, JOW didn't enjoy it, doesn't mean he's not good, does he?

Sorry I can't agree the LGL pips ban theory. Especially just because the equipment of a single player conspiracy.

Does anyone know the win lose rate between Jo and LGL?

I mean were these pips that amazing that Jo never won or any other player.

I'd suggest that Jo probably lost the 2-3 times because of the outright speed/power, and ferociously and playing style of a very gifted player. Rather than just the covering.

It's got to be a shot player innovation and the player quality surely?.