Why do people say LP's should be banned?

[blahness]

@blahness
Slap on an Anti and take a video of your play. I want to see if it is as what you describe, that is, it will be a killer combo.

The thing is, blahness, I am a sucker for marketing. I see pro on the circuit doing their thang! It is amazing! It is marvelous. Screaming college going fan-girls: The adulations & the adorations! Monkey see, monkey do.

Slap on a pips here, slap on an anti there, and what do you get? Elderly or geriatrics style of play. Stand on the middle of the table, move at most half a step here and there while blocking, blocking and more blocking and more block. It sure ain't sexy!

Nah if you search more there are anti attackers out there (who can also defend very well).

I mean you can already check out Sreeja Akula, her style is definitely not all block at all.

Sure inverted BH is cool af. I too hit ridiculous cool shots like a BH loopkill down the line or the chiquita winners from the short FH side, but tbh you can do cool shit but what really wins matches is not eating unreadable hidden serves for breakfast lol.

 

[Ghostzen]

Gozo, it's no use complaining, you just gotta join them haha... just slap an anti on your BH and I reckon you'll play 2 levels higher at least given your current lack of a inverted BH game anyway....

Not sure why you're persisting in the inverted path lol, i feel like it's just a bit of masochistic tendency to play double inverted at your age...

If I became like 40-50 yr old I'll be using anti on my BH too.

I tried an older guy's anti (it was pink in colour, not too sure which model it was) the other day and it was surprisingly quite accessible. A lot of my shots worked fine even the chiquita (lol it was funny to see it working against short serves). Attacking backspin was easy peasy too.

Ffs I am even tempted to give it a try. This will make me immune in serve receive and given how strong my serves already are it'll be a killer combo. The anti sideswipe will probably destroy quite a lot of ppl (the inverted version is already quite disgusting to play against lol)

You can't be far off mid 30's now Blah. Those years creep up trust me!. Before you know it ... you'll be 50 and hanging in there. Those competitions, events and league matches get harder on the body then. The beer mind does seem to get easier!

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Hey, Gozo, Xu Xin is a leftie, that’s definitely an unfair advantage, he should be banned…

Cheers
L-zr

Xuxin is too sexy to be ban. It would be like banning Adriana Lima from participating in Ms World because she is too awesomely gorgeous. That would be insanity!

 

[Lowday20298]

Here's a Benedek Olah masterclass against long pimple. Never let them take the initiative.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Here's a Benedek Olah masterclass against long pimple. Never let them take the initiative.

View attachment 29145

You mean I can flat hit and win points?

I didn't know that...

I had been conditioned that flat-hitting is a dirty word.

I gotta try this against these pipsters and witches.

 

[Kopp]

Sorry I can't agree the LGL pips ban theory. Especially just because the equipment of a single player conspiracy.

Does anyone know the win lose rate between Jo and LGL?

I mean were these pips that amazing that Jo never won or any other player.

I'd suggest that Jo probably lost the 2-3 times because of the outright speed/power, and ferociously and playing style of a very gifted player. Rather than just the covering.

It's got to be a shot player innovation and the player quality surely?.

I get you.

Maybe didn't point myself clear. Using different names, let say, John Doe didn't enjoy playing against Joe Blow the pips, doesn't mean that John Doe is not good, does he?

My point is, we shouldn't judge people who disagree on pips-out, are not good. Disagreement on the equipment is just their opinion, and we should respect that.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I think you're looking at this a bit unfairly. I enjoy training against LP players since I have to focus on quality and reading the spin above anything else.

But I hate the fact that their equipment mechanism is totally different and you need to have a high level adaptability to play against them since each LP rubber reacts totally differently to incoming spin. Some can completely reverse the spin, but some can only nullify the spin giving you deadballs and some can only reduce the incoming spin. In a match, you have to figure out fast what you're going up against or you will simply lose before you can adjust.

I like the variation they bring to the table but I'm not a fan that their equipment mechanics are different. In any other sports, different mechanics would lead to different sub-divisions (like in swimming) or different sports altogether.

A certain level of equipment uniformity is present is every major sport which to me, LPs don't have with regular inverted rubbers, and that's my problem. You can't use a tennis racket that has a different mechanics than the regular ones, same thing with squash/badminton rackets, same thing with boxing gloves, MMA gloves or baseball/cricket bats.

Should it be banned or not or have its own thing, that's another question.

I don't see it as unfair, as other in pro space, i'm also in amateur space
those 60 year old uncles, playing more hours than pros for double to triple amount of years, can use cheap chinese inverted rubbers and chop block the ball left right and center.

I rather play against a LP than those uncles that can spin the ball to crazy lengths.
you also have those inverted penhold blockers that just block the ball whole day long and no ways to get pass them. They don't even need to move.

Why I don't see it as unfair? because I have seen a lot.
TT in over 20 countries to be exact.
There are many inverted that will give you trouble with the incoming spin and they aren't high level per se.

So again, in those countries, TT is hardcore and mainstream. No moaners in that side of the world to be honest

 

[Metaxa]

By definition that means they aren't better. If you don't know how to play against long pips, especially now with the larger plastic ball, ban on frictionless long pips, the aspect ratio rule, and the pimple density rule, I don't know what to tell you other than you simply aren't good enough. If you're spending hours training and having problems against long pips players, the problem is you. You should consider actually trying to get better.

If you lose to someone and your first thought is "we should ban this", that's baby brained behavior.

Says someone with LPs of course...
Better read, I had written in my first paragraph that over the years we have overcome these by trial and error.💪
Why don't you play with 2 x inverters yourself? Was it a bit too difficult perhaps? Or no character? Opted for the easiest solution? Should LPs not exist you might have done your best anyway.
However, millions of players have learned to play with "normal rubbers", so it can't be that difficult.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Says someone with LPs of course...
Better read, I had written in my first paragraph that over the years we have overcome these by trial and error.💪
Why don't you play with 2 x inverters yourself? Was it a bit too difficult perhaps? Or no character? Opted for the easiest solution? Should LPs not exist you might have done your best anyway.
However, millions of players have learned to play with "normal rubbers", so it can't be that difficult.

as I said, if back then, when inverted came out,
if the so called "baby brained behavior" exists back then, and people got away with banning inverted rubbers
we won't have inverted today lol

 

[canonFH]

The people who say LP should be banned are more often than not, the same people who have illegal serves, or soak their rubbers in seamoon. On an amateur level, rules are anyways not enforced strictly. A pro would never complain.

 

[Nima Abadi]

I don't see it as unfair, as other in pro space, i'm also in amateur space
those 60 year old uncles, playing more hours than pros for double to triple amount of years, can use cheap chinese inverted rubbers and chop block the ball left right and center.

I rather play against a LP than those uncles that can spin the ball to crazy lengths.
you also have those inverted penhold blockers that just block the ball whole day long and no ways to get pass them. They don't even need to move.

Why I don't see it as unfair? because I have seen a lot.
TT in over 20 countries to be exact.
There are many inverted that will give you trouble with the incoming spin and they aren't high level per se.

So again, in those countries, TT is hardcore and mainstream. No moaners in that side of the world to be honest

I understand your POV, but for me, when it comes to those guys that you are talking about, we are talking about their skills and mastery over touch and feeling, not their equipment mechanics. They can chop block left right and center and give me trouble with my own equipment as well, cause their ability to play the way they do is not coming purely from their equipment.

LP has different mechanics, you can't do what you do with LP with inverted rubbers and vice versa. They simply have different mechanics. Not arguing which one is better, just saying two mechanics competing with each other is kind of unique let's say .

 

[blahness]

You mean I can flat hit and win points?

I didn't know that...

I had been conditioned that flat-hitting is a dirty word.

I gotta try this against these pipsters and witches.

None of what Olah is doing is a flat hit. He is basically loopkilling all balls, which is extremely hard to do even for pros. It's a good strategy because he doesn't want to get dragged into a rally, and he doesn't mind making the errors.

 

[Ghostzen]

I get you.

Maybe didn't point myself clear. Using different names, let say, John Doe didn't enjoy playing against Joe Blow the pips, doesn't mean that John Doe is not good, does he?

My point is, we shouldn't judge people who disagree on pips-out, are not good. Disagreement on the equipment is just their opinion, and we should respect that.

OK makes sense now. So saying Player x dislikes pimples players is an opinion is fair and valid totally.

My point would be when getting a bit more serious league and match involved its fair to say I dislike pimples but I still have to find a way to win against them. I can't give up because of a surface or type of play. It's not saying player x is a poor standard of player in general.

My Caveat would be out of experience many lesser experienced players struggle with pips/Anti because they don't have the tools or exposure to deal with them. You don't tend to find british league or strong local league players who won't go on the table without any plan as they understand through time spend what needs to be done. That's not saying it's not hard work mind!.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

None of what Olah is doing is a flat hit. He is basically loopkilling all balls, which is extremely hard to do even for pros. It's a good strategy because he doesn't want to get dragged into a rally, and he doesn't mind making the errors.

Deng! And for a second I thought I have found the Holy Grail against pipsters and witches!!!

 

[NDH]

Apologies if this is old ground - I tried to read the SIX pages of this thread, but skimmed some of it!

I’d be amazed if the OP’s statement hasn’t been heard by many players across the globe!

The reality is, long pips are horrible for lots of people to play against because:

1. They don’t really understand what to do against them.
2. They can’t loop consistently enough.
3. They likely don’t even check the other persons bat before playing anyway!
4. They enjoy playing, but don’t see the sport as something they need to dedicate their time to learning.

And this reality comes from playing in UK local leagues for the last 20+ years, having seen the above through ever single ability range.

People on these forums are the absolute minority and it’s not even close.

It’s easy to ask ourselves “how can someone be playing for 20 years STILL not understand the principle of playing against long pips?!”, but they don’t, and they don’t take the time or effort to learn it.

The idea of posting on a Table Tennis forum would be so alien to them.....

I always hear people moan about pips (they definitely have no idea of long vs short pips) - It’ll always happen!

I don’t think it helps that *a lot* of pips players (certainly in the UK), have what I would describe as……. “Very weird” technique.

They don’t look pretty, and if you just glance at them, they definitely don’t look like they should win any games…..

But this is what makes it so frustrating for people, and why they resort to “you won because of your rubbers”.

Which is 100% true…. But it’s 100% part of the game.

 

[AndySmith]

well, in my side of the world, there are many fake left handers.
they are right handers, but learnt to play table tennis left handed.
so, it is a choice


Suggest coaches get a couple of pips rackets.
That was the first thing I did when I became a coach in 2012.
SP attacking
SP Defending
MP
LP chop
LP block

and heck, I'm a penholder and just holding shakehand was already a bit awkward.

Yup, and this is what we do as clubs - we get a bunch of different setups and try to expose the juniors to it as soon as we can. But this brings the asymmetrical warfare aspect back in. Practical example with easy maths but not far from what actually happens -

Let's say we have 5% of juniors who use LP, and one of our juniors is going to a tournament. That tournament is 20 players, organised into 4 groups of 5. There's one LP player in that 20. You have a 1-in-4 chance of drawing that player in your group, and if you do, 25% of your match time is against that LP player, and since the top 2 in each group go through, it becomes really important to have an understanding of what's afoot. You also have a 3-in-4 chance of not having that player in your group, and good odds on never facing them all event.

How much of your training time - a precious resource - do you dedicate to training against LP? 5%? Seems too low to really get a grip on the playstyle, considering it's very different. 25%? Maybe, but seems a bit high when the chances are you'll be playing "regular" style players.

The irony is - if 50% of players used LP, it would be easy to make these decisions as coaches and players. It's the scarcity of LP users that brings their biggest advantage, and the biggest headache for clubs when preparing against them. We quite often see junior tournaments with just 1 or 2 LP players amongst 80 entrants. This isn't unfair, it's just a puzzle for everyone to solve.

Again - just to be clear - I don't want them banned. I just understand why people get so frustrated they get to the point of wanting them banned, and in my experience it's not because they're lazy or dumb (for the most part anyway, I'm sure those players exist).

I suppose hand-switching during a point is fake-left-handedness now I think about it. Ban THAT sick filth.

 

[Metaxa]

as I said, if back then, when inverted came out,
if the so called "baby brained behavior" exists back then, and people got away with banning inverted rubbers
we won't have inverted today lol

The beginning of inverted rubbers is/was in another era. As you know, there is a table tennis association where they even organise world championships for SP without mousse. Let's all go back to that! No problem! If we want to see table tennis as a full-fledged sport and not as a pub or garage skill game, there have to be certain rules. These are sorely lacking in current table tennis. It remains a mix of sport and game.
Even in darts, the rules are stricter and 15000 people come to watch big tournaments. They are more professional there than Olympic sport table tennis.
But I'll give a damn. I am now too old for this kind or games. I had a good time, got a good education, was among the top-200 players in my native country. Being able to play against JM-Saive and A. Podpinka. Met many nice people and for much of my life table tennis, sometimes with pleasure sometimes with great annoyance, has taken a lot of free time from me, even now. At my current location, we have no one in the club with technical equipment. Nor would the two head coaches who train the youth here want or promote it. And that's the way it should be!
I would never lower myself to resorting to technical equipment to score points that we might not be able to make with an inverted rubber. Training always pays off, sooner or later!

 

[Kopp]

.. If we want to see table tennis as a full-fledged sport and not as a pub or garage skill game, there have to be certain rules. These are sorely lacking in current table tennis. It remains a mix of sport and game.
Even in darts, the rules are stricter and 15000 people come to watch big tournaments. They are more professional there than Olympic sport table tennis.
..

1,000,000% agree! I was actually thinking along similar lines, using baseball as an example.

Baseball rules are beautifully clear and simple. There's no room for compromise on equipment specifications. All players must use bats that meet the same strict criteria: a smooth, round wooden bat no more than 2.61 inches in diameter and 42 inches long, made from a single piece of solid wood. The rules even go as far as specifying that players' uniforms must have numbers at least six inches tall on the back.

Now, you might wonder, why not allow cricket bats or other types of bats? The answer is simple: MLB prioritizes consistency. You play by the rules, or you don't play.

This clarity and simplicity make baseball accessible to everyone. Even a six-year-old can understand and enjoy watching or playing the game. That's reflected in the huge viewership for both televised and live games.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

The beginning of inverted rubbers is/was in another era.

You see, people didn't moan and table tennis become one of the biggest sports in the world.
inverted rubbers at that time was "technical equipment" and who ever used it, gain huge advantage.
If TTD was around then, we would have a thread about "banning inverted" lol

and ERA it is, and table tennis has grew from there.
If any - the banning of things and rule changes in a space of 10 years probably hurt table tennis's growth by quite a bit.

As you know, there is a table tennis association where they even organise world championships for SP without mousse.

yes, and people like TB should go there and play because everyone is using the same racket. FAIR is what he wanted.

Let's all go back to that! No problem! If we want to see table tennis as a full-fledged sport and not as a pub or garage skill game, there have to be certain rules. These are sorely lacking in current table tennis. It remains a mix of sport and game.

WCPP is actually very well marketed. Not sure if you been to one, but maybe TT people should hire WCPP people, and it could become a full-fledged sport.

Even in darts, the rules are stricter and 15000 people come to watch big tournaments. They are more professional there than Olympic sport table tennis.

darts is probably more famous than many olympics sports.
talk table tennis vs table tennis.
why some country can do well and some can't? same rules.....

But I'll give a damn. I am now too old for this kind or games. I had a good time, got a good education, was among the top-200 players in my native country. Being able to play against JM-Saive and A. Podpinka. Met many nice people and for much of my life table tennis, sometimes with pleasure sometimes with great annoyance, has taken a lot of free time from me, even now. At my current location, we have no one in the club with technical equipment. Nor would the two head coaches who train the youth here want or promote it. And that's the way it should be!
I would never lower myself to resorting to technical equipment to score points that we might not be able to make with an inverted rubber. Training always pays off, sooner or later!

Well, i'm young and many coaches around me are young.
We are forever adapting to something new and learning.
Getting stuck in the same dimension or style for decades will only lean to "falling behind" the world trend.

Speaking about that, India's top 3 junior girls are currently in Taiwan, and my friends players are getting a nice time "getting used to them".
and just few days ago, Japan's top junior (cpen) penholder was in Taiwan (he left back on the 31st of March). I actually have some nice videos of him.

 

[ViperTableTennis]

1,000,000% agree! I was actually thinking along similar lines, using baseball as an example.

Baseball rules are beautifully clear and simple. There's no room for compromise on equipment specifications. All players must use bats that meet the same strict criteria: a smooth, round wooden bat no more than 2.61 inches in diameter and 42 inches long, made from a single piece of solid wood. The rules even go as far as specifying that players' uniforms must have numbers at least six inches tall on the back.

Now, you might wonder, why not allow cricket bats or other types of bats? The answer is simple: MLB prioritizes consistency. You play by the rules, or you don't play.

This clarity and simplicity make baseball accessible to everyone. Even a six-year-old can understand and enjoy watching or playing the game. That's reflected in the huge viewership for both televised and live games.

But Table Tennis rules on rubbers a beautifully clear as well. In fact, we have it even better than having beautifully clear rules...because the governing body literally produces a list of rubbers that we're allowed to use. We have absolutely no need to study the ITTF rulebook and get our tape measure out to measure sponge thicknesses or aspect ratios etc. All we have to do is pick a rubber from the list! How could they make it any simpler than literally saying "here's the list of what you can use, just pick from this list and its all good"?