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    #1

    Against spin vs with spin.

    When a chopper chops a ball with topspin the chopper goes with the spin. When the ball comes back to the looper the looper has to go against the spin. From what I know it's harder to go against the spin. But when two loopers are in a counter looping rally (topspin to topspin) both players are playing against each other's spin. Why is this not hard? Sorry if this question doesn't make any sense.

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    #2
    Simple explanation is that when your opponent chops the ball to you and you are looking to loop the ball back what you have to take into consideration is that because the chopper has put backspin on the ball the spin is naturally taking the ball away from you and back towards the net (depending on the amount of backspin) so therefore because of this you have less dwell time to create your own spin resulting in a fair amount of balls not clearing the net.

    With Counter looping the ball is always coming towards you which causes the ball to engage with the rubber and blade allowing (with the correct technique) for you to add pace and spin onto the ball.

    Hope this makes sense :-)


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  3. NextLevel is offline
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    #3
    Quote Originally Posted by karan705
    When a chopper chops a ball with topspin the chopper goes with the spin. When the ball comes back to the looper the looper has to go against the spin. From what I know it's harder to go against the spin. But when two loopers are in a counter looping rally (topspin to topspin) both players are playing against each other's spin. Why is this not hard? Sorry if this question doesn't make any sense.
    This is incorrect - when looping backspin, the looper has to go with the spin as well. This is why spinning up balls with backspin creates balls with extremely heavy topspin (they add to the incoming backspin to get heavier topspin). It is if the looper chooses to loop backspin by going against the spin that the looper struggles and this is pretty hard unless you are dealing with very light backspin that you can overpower.


    In general, it is easier to go against the spin with inverted - inverted is designed to stop and impart spin.

    In general, it is easier to continue the spin with long pips - long pips are designed to let spin pass through and to add to it with the pimples breaking.

    Short pips are closer to inverted, medium pips are closer to long pips, but they both stop spin worse than inverted and let spin pass through worse than long pips.

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  4. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #4
    Yep, as NextLevel already said, when you loop backspin, your racket is going with the spin.

    Hence Pnatchtwey's famous quote that all one needs to do to loop backspin is have the "tangential" (he loves that word tangential) speed of his racket going at the same speed as the speed of the incoming spin and you will loop the ball.

    If you loop and the opponent chops and you keep going you can add more and more spin to the ball. This is because both players are going with the spin and adding more spin to each successive shot.

    Neither looping backspin or chopping topspin are easy. But what they are is a matter of technique. When you get comfortable looping heavy chop, it becomes more fluid. I am guessing the same is the case for chopping heavy loop although I totally suck at chopping. But, I think, as NextLevel intimated, the Long Pips, make it easier to chop heavy topspin because they don't grab the ball to the same way so you can let the ball actually spin on the surface of the rubber. Yes, if the LP player makes deeper contact the pips bend and the side of the pips can grab the ball. That will make the chop heavier. So there is an art to using LP.

    What a good LP chopper does that makes things even harder for a looper is they can adjust their contact to make every ball have completely different spin so that the looper really has to read the spin well and see the balls that are heavy, medium, light or dead.

    If you try to loop a dead ball as though it was heavy, the ball goes long. If you try to loop a heavy ball as though it was light, the ball won't even get to the net.

    But you should see what happens to a chopper if you give him what Wally Green calls "Heavy No Spin"!

    Wally has this shot that looks just like a slow heavy loop. But it is a no spin ball. It is pretty fun to see a good chopper misread the spin on that shot!


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  5. karan705 is offline
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    #5
    Ok i get why the spin adds up. But when there is under spin on the ball isn't is easier to just touch the ball at the bottom then looping it. Then why do you say it easier to go against spin.

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    In my experience , I have found this to be the definitive guide to understand pips and spin

    http://www.gregsttpages.com/articles3/53-articles/long-pimples/87-long-pimples-for-beginners


    In any sport its always more difficult to play a ball predictably when its going away , thats why outswingers or legspin are more difficult to hit in cricket and that why an inside out serve with underspin on your forehand is more difficult to loop compared to a side top coming your way , unless its going to your pocket.

    Now there is another aspect , which is the concept of margins, when you are pushing or chopping the ball is floating and the margins on it landing on the table is comparatively less than looping . Hence people prefer to loop chops than pushing unless the spin is so heavy that its difficult to loop. Also , if you don't estimate the spin correctly your push might pop up and the chopper will come in and smash.

    Quote Originally Posted by karan705
    Ok i get why the spin adds up. But when there is under spin on the ball isn't is easier to just touch the ball at the bottom then looping it. Then why do you say it easier to go against spin.

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  7. Tinykin is offline
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    #7
    I don't know who is more right, but I prefer Pricey11's simpler explanation.
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    #8
    one last thing. Both playing against spin and play with spin have their ups and downs so there is really no such thing as which one is harder. It may depend on preference. And when you play with spin, spin adds up and when you play against you stop the spin and then storke to add your own. Am I right?

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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by karan705
    Ok i get why the spin adds up. But when there is under spin on the ball isn't is easier to just touch the ball at the bottom then looping it. Then why do you say it easier to go against spin.
    When you push the backspin ball with inverted, you are going against the spin. So yes, it is easier to go against the spin with inverted, which is why so many low level players always push backspin until they develop the ability to loop it.

    To clarify:

    When you push/chop the backspin ball with inverted to get backspin, you are going against the spin.
    When you loop/counter the backspin ball with inverted to get topspin, you are going with the spin.

    When you loop/counter the topspin ball with inverted to get topspin, you are going against the spin.
    When you push/chop the topspin ball with inverted to get backspin, you are going with the spin.

    Remember, the key strength of inverted is the ability to stop and impart spin. So it is easier to push backspin with backspin and loop topspin with topspin with inverted.

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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ttmonster
    In my experience , I have found this to be the definitive guide to understand pips and spin

    http://www.gregsttpages.com/articles3/53-articles/long-pimples/87-long-pimples-for-beginners


    In any sport its always more difficult to play a ball predictably when its going away , thats why outswingers or legspin are more difficult to hit in cricket and that why an inside out serve with underspin on your forehand is more difficult to loop compared to a side top coming your way , unless its going to your pocket.

    Now there is another aspect , which is the concept of margins, when you are pushing or chopping the ball is floating and the margins on it landing on the table is comparatively less than looping . Hence people prefer to loop chops than pushing unless the spin is so heavy that its difficult to loop. Also , if you don't estimate the spin correctly your push might pop up and the chopper will come in and smash.
    That's a classic article and should be required reading for all players. I read it a few times and it helped me a lot when I finally understood it. It influenced how I think of spin in general in table tennis.

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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by karan705
    one last thing. Both playing against spin and play with spin have their ups and downs so there is really no such thing as which one is harder. It may depend on preference. And when you play with spin, spin adds up and when you play against you stop the spin and then storke to add your own. Am I right?
    Yes and no. There is a preference element, yes, but the ease element is true for most levels of players dealing with most levels of spin.
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  12. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #12
    Yep, yep, NextLevel said it.

    Chop v chop = against spin
    Loop v loop = against spin
    Loop v chop = with spin
    Chop v loop = with spin

    Now, I don't know about you guys....but I am getting really nervous that the nutty professors from the planters plant is going to come on here and call everyone idiots and want to come up with a better formula to bore us all to death.

    Hey, is that Kazumi Ishikawa over there? Gotta Go!!!


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    #13
    Thanks for reminding , I totally forgot about our resident Stephen Hawking :P

    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Yep, yep, NextLevel said it.

    Chop v chop = against spin
    Loop v loop = against spin
    Loop v chop = with spin
    Chop v loop = with spin

    Now, I don't know about you guys....but I am getting really nervous that the nutty professors from the planters plant is going to come on here and call everyone idiots and want to come up with a better formula to bore us all to death.

    Hey, is that Kazumi Ishikawa over there? Gotta Go!!!


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    #14
    Its a matter of shot and situation/position of the ball & position of two players. Sometimes going against the spin is harder. There is no general rule on which is harder. If a topspin ball with really high arc, is coming fast and into your face and you have no time to pivot and play FH then you are most likely to get out of balance because of the arc. A high arc ball with the highest bounce being right in your chest or face is very difficult to handle

    Ma long uses this tactic against FZD many time on BH to BH exchanges. U cant block the ball low cause its already too high and u have to stand up "unbend'
    your knees and hope that your block/counterBH spin is going to land and even if it does you are out of balance.

    Same thing goes for underspin, if u are far away from the table after a hard loop and the chopper chops very soft the ball will land near the net and u have no time to execute a loop again, u are forced to step in and execute a soft push and if the ball bounces high, u get a smash/topspin in your face. Like most of joo sae huyk's points when he attacks

    So basically, its not only the spin to take into consideration, but the position ofthe ball and your position against the opponent
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    #15
    So if you play with spin, spin adds on (playing against a chopper). Playing against spin, spin is stopped and then added on by stroking it (topspin to topspin rally). Hope I am finally right. ????

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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by TTFrenzy
    Its a matter of shot and situation/position of the ball & position of two players. Sometimes going against the spin is harder. There is no general rule on which is harder. If a topspin ball with really high arc, is coming fast and into your face and you have no time to pivot and play FH then you are most likely to get out of balance because of the arc. A high arc ball with the highest bounce being right in your chest or face is very difficult to handle

    Ma long uses this tactic against FZD many time on BH to BH exchanges. U cant block the ball low cause its already too high and u have to stand up "unbend'
    your knees and hope that your block/counterBH spin is going to land and even if it does you are out of balance.

    Same thing goes for underspin, if u are far away from the table after a hard loop and the chopper chops very soft the ball will land near the net and u have no time to execute a loop again, u are forced to step in and execute a soft push and if the ball bounces high, u get a smash/topspin in your face. Like most of joo sae huyk's points when he attacks

    So basically, its not only the spin to take into consideration, but the position ofthe ball and your position against the opponent
    There is a general rule on which is harder. Going against the spin is generally easier, continuing the spin is generally harder. Easier or harder doesn't mean desirable or perfect or undesirable or imperfect. Easier means requires less effort, harder means requires more effort. This assumes inverted.

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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by karan705
    So if you play with spin, spin adds on (playing against a chopper). Playing against spin, spin is stopped and then added on by stroking it (topspin to topspin rally). Hope I am finally right. ????
    This is correct. Also, if the rubber or surface is grippy and elastic (like most inverted rubbers are), going against the spin when it stops the spin retains some of the power/spin from the incoming shot so it is another avenue for building up spin, though the amount built up, all other things being equal, is less than that from going with the spin. It can be very significant though in counterlooping or topspin/kick blocking rallies and sometimes in chop/push rallies.

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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Yep, yep, NextLevel said it.

    Chop v chop = against spin
    Loop v loop = against spin
    Loop v chop = with spin
    Chop v loop = with spin

    Now, I don't know about you guys....but I am getting really nervous that the nutty professors from the planters plant is going to come on here and call everyone idiots and want to come up with a better formula to bore us all to death.

    Hey, is that Kazumi Ishikawa over there? Gotta Go!!!


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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel
    There is a general rule on which is harder. Going against the spin is generally easier, continuing the spin is generally harder. Easier or harder doesn't mean desirable or perfect or undesirable or imperfect. Easier means requires less effort, harder means requires more effort. This assumes inverted.
    well my criteria are not only about the effort . just because a ball is considered among some "easy" does not mean that a stroke fits everyone or that there is a general rule about it. many players with good feeling find it much easier to brush loop an underspin ball which is going with the spin than countering a no spin ball or a topspin ball. Its all a matter of perspective and situation that's all im saying.

    So basically just because physics and math say "going with the spin is harder" (which from a science POV is true) does not mean that it is so cause science does not take into consideration the human factor. talent and personal preference, if everybody played the same way then the game would be extremely boring and unwatchable
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    #20
    Did some one mention physics or math?

    Quote Originally Posted by karan705
    So if you play with spin, spin adds on (playing against a chopper).
    It depends, the looper still need to have a faster tangential paddle speed than the spin of the ball. If the tangential paddle is slower the ball will convert rotational energy into translational energy and spin down into the net but its spin is slowed. If you only match the rotational speed of the ball with the tangential speed of the paddle the ball will go back with exactly the same spin.

    Playing against spin, spin is stopped and then added on by stroking it (topspin to topspin rally). Hope I am finally right. ????
    Yes, if you are blocking top spin you can close your paddle and passively generate top spin. The incoming top spin stretches your top sheet. When the top sheet snaps back it rotates the ball in the opposite direction so now it is your top spin but it won't be as great as the incoming top spin unless you add some energy to the block to make up for the energy lost during contact.

    Yes USDC, a stroke imparts a force on the ball. Normally this force does not go through the center of the ball. It is then easier to think of the force being divided up into two vectors. One is normal to the paddle and through the center of the ball and the other is tangential to the ball in the plane of the paddle. This is the force that generates spin and what causes higher "throw angle".

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