Let's start a conversation - Harimoto / Ma Long BH

Gozo said:

Well said my friend. Thank you. BTW: what does Groove your stroke mean?

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Repeat it and repeat and repeat it and repeat it and repeat it and repeat it thousands of thousands of thousands of thousands of times till its like wheels running in well worn grooves in the road. Because you have gone over the road so many times the tire worn grooves in the road keep the tires on the right track.

Then your stroke just happens because of how many times you have done it and the stroke is always solid.

You might actually do well for yourself if, over the next few weeks practice a few thousand shadow strokes a day every day in front of a mirror so you can see the shadow strokes.

If you did 30 min of shadow BH strokes in front of a mirror 4-5 days a week for the next 3 weeks, I guarantee your BH will improve just as a result of the shadow strokes. If you make your coach do 15-20 minutes of you just looping backspin with your BH for the next 10 sessions, that will also cause your BH to improve.

You need the repetitions. If you watch Ma Long warm up at the beginning, when he starts looping, how relaxed his FH loop stroke looks, and how it looks exactly the same every time, that is grooving your stroke. You need more repetitions and at this point, if you watch 5-10 BH shots of yours on video, you will notice that you keep doing different things each time you hit the BH....many variations on half punch half block and you are taking the ball at different places because you move your racket to the ball without moving your feet so that you are in a good position.

Gozo said:

However, to my wonderful surprise, the conversation with my coach did not end there. He continued, I want you to look at Harimoto's BH. It would suit you more with your equipment set up and play style. NB: I have been with him about ten lessons or so far, hence I would agree that he roughly know and understand my playstyle. He then continue to give me pointers on how to improve my BH which I will not list down here for brevity purpose.

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Ahhhh the Backhand, the single most important stroke in "non professional" Table Tennis in my opinion.

Why? Because *most* people learn a decent forehand if they play for long enough, and it's usually the side they are most comfortable on from the outset.

But.... Even at the higher levels, I find that not *that* many people have a really strong backhand - Certainly not the kind of backhand that will blast you off the table.

It's often a well controlled backhand, one that can block, counter and move the ball around - But rarely do you see people open up against backspin, or loop against heavy backspin (the caveat here is that all juniors in the last 10 years have been taught to backhand flick, so they are fine on the opening, but struggle against heavy backspin).

Now, I'm going to disagree with your coach here. So clearly you should ignore all the advice I'm about to give, because I'm no where near as qualified to give my opinion compared to a coach who has seen you play a lot.

But..... When I've watched Harimoto play (and granted, it's not a huge amount) - His backhand is very "punch" focussed.

This works well at the Pro level, but personally, I don't think that style of backhand is necessarily the best at a non pro level.

I say this, because most intermediate/improving players get "stuck" on their backhand. A backspin serve goes in, and then it's just a big old push fest until someone can step around on their forehand to top spin the ball.

If you are learning a more "punchy" backhand, I don't think you'll have the confidence to initiate that first loop (on the backhand).

That's not to say you can't have both - A spinny/loopy open up, followed by aggressive punches, but I would personally focus on the spinny/loopy open ups first.

What @carl said is absolutely right - When I came back to the sport 7 years ago, I was less confident on my backhand, and it caused me issues when trying to get around to my forehand.

I spent an entire summer (when the league wasn't on), training and playing practice matches, where I would just try and hit backhands with nothing to lose.

Granted, I already had a decent technique from the coaching I had as a junior, but that repetition and focus on one shot for the best part of 3 months turned my backhand into one of my best shots.

When I look at how I use my backhand now..... I can play punchy/close to the table shots..... But that's only against players who are opening up against me, and like to relentlessly attack (those players are rare at the intermediate/improver stage).

A lot of my backhand involves looping the first ball, counter looping and flicking close to the table - A very different technique to the punchy shots.

This all depends on exactly what your coach meant of course...... 😂, but if I were you, I'd play the game the way you want to.... If that's copying Ma Long, then do it.... But adapt it to what works for you.

Table Tennis is one of those sports where watching YouTube videos can broaden your knowledge on things, but there is no substitute for hands on 1 to 1 coaching.

The only reason I can watch TT videos and actually learn some things, is because I've had years of 1 to 1 coaching as a junior, 20 years of playing the sport at a high level and understand what can/can't work for my game (when watching the pros).

The minute you remove that 1 to 1 coaching.... the rest of it all comes tumbling down.

Back to my previous comment - I think a lot will depend on the people you are playing and the style of play in your country.

In the UK, a lot of intermediate players will push/mild backspin 50% of the time. Having a backhand loop to open up the rally would be a killer shot.

Having a backhand punch would be less useful, as the opposition will very rarely open up first.

However, if you are likely to be playing a lot of people who are happy to open up and get the topspin going, the use of a "close to the table" backhand punch would be a killer shot, and take all the time away from your opponent.

I've just looked, and I actually have a great example on my video.

At 1:10, the chap in Black serves a mild backspin/sidespin serve to my backhand.

My first backhand is a powerful backhand loop/topspin, and my second shot is a powerful punch.

Granted, the punch is still a bit topspinny, but I could only play that shot against a ball that had topspin on it.

If I'd tried that sort of backhand against the serve, it would have gone into the net.

Anyway, looking forward to seeing you document your progress with it!

NDH said:

Ahhhh the Backhand, the single most important stroke in "non professional" Table Tennis in my opinion.

Why? Because *most* people learn a decent forehand if they play for long enough, and it's usually the side they are most comfortable on from the outset.

But.... Even at the higher levels, I find that not *that* many people have a really strong backhand - Certainly not the kind of backhand that will blast you off the table.

It's often a well controlled backhand, one that can block, counter and move the ball around - But rarely do you see people open up against backspin, or loop against heavy backspin (the caveat here is that all juniors in the last 10 years have been taught to backhand flick, so they are fine on the opening, but struggle against heavy backspin).

Now, I'm going to disagree with your coach here. So clearly you should ignore all the advice I'm about to give, because I'm no where near as qualified to give my opinion compared to a coach who has seen you play a lot.

But..... When I've watched Harimoto play (and granted, it's not a huge amount) - His backhand is very "punch" focussed.

This works well at the Pro level, but personally, I don't think that style of backhand is necessarily the best at a non pro level.

I say this, because most intermediate/improving players get "stuck" on their backhand. A backspin serve goes in, and then it's just a big old push fest until someone can step around on their forehand to top spin the ball.

If you are learning a more "punchy" backhand, I don't think you'll have the confidence to initiate that first loop (on the backhand).

That's not to say you can't have both - A spinny/loopy open up, followed by aggressive punches, but I would personally focus on the spinny/loopy open ups first.

What @carl said is absolutely right - When I came back to the sport 7 years ago, I was less confident on my backhand, and it caused me issues when trying to get around to my forehand.

I spent an entire summer (when the league wasn't on), training and playing practice matches, where I would just try and hit backhands with nothing to lose.

Granted, I already had a decent technique from the coaching I had as a junior, but that repetition and focus on one shot for the best part of 3 months turned my backhand into one of my best shots.

When I look at how I use my backhand now..... I can play punchy/close to the table shots..... But that's only against players who are opening up against me, and like to relentlessly attack (those players are rare at the intermediate/improver stage).

A lot of my backhand involves looping the first ball, counter looping and flicking close to the table - A very different technique to the punchy shots.

This all depends on exactly what your coach meant of course...... 😂, but if I were you, I'd play the game the way you want to.... If that's copying Ma Long, then do it.... But adapt it to what works for you.

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This makes a lot of sense to me, and certainly fits with what I am experiencing right now in my league matches - when I can get over a pushed ball to my BH with a top spin / loop then I am winning most of those rallies.

Wrighty67 said:

This makes a lot of sense to me, and certainly fits with what I am experiencing right now in my league matches - when I can get over a pushed ball to my BH with a top spin / loop then I am winning most of those rallies.

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Gozo said:

Heck, even if my coach says to BH like Aruna Quadri, I would still listen to my coach.

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Poor Aruna catching strays out here 😂

But I like this topic and have wondered myself specifically the difference between Ma Long's BH stroke vs topspin and vs backspin. Like what NDH and IB were saying, whether it's punch vs pull or push v spinny, the whole sequence or flow of energy looks starkly different between the two. Even in another video of ti long where he slows the stroke down, when ma long plays BH top v top he retreats his elbow initially and then seems to fling the whole right side of his body forward, with the elbow stopping and becoming a fulcrum at just the right moment so the forearm can rotate in direction of the shot.

When it comes to creating this groove, I'm still not sure about how I should be grooving the motion. Ma Long's BH topspin v topspin looks cool but somehow feels stranger than to what to me is the more normal stroke, where the right elbow doesn't initially have momentum flying forward