waldner's backhand

sebas-aguirre · Jan 5, 2015

what do you think about waldner's backhand?
it seems as if it was one step behind in evolution to what fan zhendong, timo boll, zhang jike are doing today.

I can't help but identify with it more than with the other guys mentioned.
mostly flat shots and kind of passive, sometimes it looks almost as if he comes from short pips.

I think that's a big part of his secret.
he doesn't dazzle you with his technique, it looks rather limited.
but somehow he got to be very effective with it....

maybe the fact that there were so many short pips players back then molded the backhand of the inverted players as well?

TTFrenzy · Jan 5, 2015

His BH topsping against backspin was definitely not at a pro level, compared to Appelgren,Karlsson, or Persson. He had a fantastic feel for the backhand punch which was a good technique to use with 38mm ball cause you could flat/smash/kill a ball easily if you were gifted with feeling as waldner was.

Most of the times he didnt use his BH cause he knew he wasnt good at it, insted he tried to use it as a link stroke to his FH or play some fast counter BH shots with lots of wrist snap instead

sebas-aguirre · Jan 5, 2015

I mean of course if the other guy pushes or chops he (waldner) can do a backhand topsin.
what I mean is after that or when in the middle of a point he would do flat shots.
if you look at chinese guys, for example fan zhendong here at around 2:50

every time he does a backhand it's like he's almost setting up a loop.
the way he takes the ball as soon as it bounces and kind of redirects it using the sponge the ball always carries some rotation.
I find this kind of hard to do, my backhand is either a full loop stroke or a flat shot.
seems like some players have this always loop tendency and some don't.

I wonder if when teaching you should teach this small looping technique or a more traditional stroke.
cause many good players seem to have forgotten what a traditional stroke looks like.

look at this girl for example, to me it looks like every backhand she does is a loop

anchorschmidt · Jan 5, 2015

Waldner had the best FH (as a non-Chinese player) of all time IMO. Boll's FH is spinny but Waldner could load his FH with tons of sidespin and not to mention, his placement was usually great so he concentrated on letting his backhand set up his Forehand instead.

He did eventually develop a BH topspin but only really used it when he was in trouble or for easier balls. An example is in the video

below at 4:55

I remember watching a video of Waldner doing BH topspins away from the table against the WTTC match against Chuang Chih Yuah in 2000. The technique was, as you say not as evolved as that of a more modern player. It didn't stop him from beating Boll or Ma Lin at the 2004 Olympics. Thus, tactics can make up for holes in your technique.

His backhand block was limited as you say, but the placement was always awkward for the opponent and Waldner gained time in order to set up his FH topspin.

sebas-aguirre · Jan 5, 2015

actually the things I noticed in him were

1- he doesn't do any banana flick style serve return. all he does is push, either very short or very long. in his days this was enough. would it be enough today?
also the blade he uses, pretty slow, is perfect for this control oriented game.

2- his backhand block is awesome. it's not the block that is awesome cause blocking is just putting the paddle out there. what is awesome is the anticipation.

3- his backhand topspin is pretty good. but this is like once in a while, when he has time and wants to win the point.

what in my opinion he lacks is that close to the table small loop.
only with his bh.
with his fh he has a bit more time so he can accomodate better to counterloop.

another master of this always loop bh style is chuang chih yuan

it seems like the game in high levels has evolved to this always loop kind of thing.
I don't know how possible you see this in lower levels, I find it pretty hard to play like that, requires extreme training and a different mindset.
the mindset that no matter where the ball goes you will loop it.

CroneOne · Jan 6, 2015

it seems like the game in high levels has evolved to this always loop kind of thing.
I don't know how possible you see this in lower levels, I find it pretty hard to play like that, requires extreme training and a different mindset.
the mindset that no matter where the ball goes you will loop it.[/QUOTE]

Wow that's interesting that you point that out. It seems that most serves are flipped back in an effort to
get the topspin rally going.
I sure would enjoy a Waldner match over this style though as you can see
the thought and strategy happening in the Waldner game rather than repetition.

I just found an example of new style vs old Waldner. Banana flicks vs none. The kid is lightening fast.

sebas-aguirre · Jan 6, 2015

yes, good example of old school versus new school.
new school is constant pressure through looping, a passive shot is an invitation to attack.

I think in the old days there was a big advantage in serving.
it was serve, the other guy struggled to recognize spin, he would push and you automatically attacked with forehand.

as for the other guy, his ranking is around 250, he's good but not super top level.
I think he looks so fast because waldner is so passive.

anchorschmidt · Jan 6, 2015

Hmm... Waldner's coach used to reprimand him for playing passively (source: http://www.j-o.se/Meriter/Titels) and the Waldner that people know as a legend in big competitions was the one who would take the initiative as soon as possible and play very aggressively. Waldner in the video above is not close to his best and playing pretty passively by his standards as well.

I think that the video below shows Waldner at a larger competition and in top form. Notice how well he's moving for the service receive and trying to receive as actively as possible without the banana flick:

1- he doesn't do any banana flick style serve return. all he does is push, either very short or very long. in his days this was enough. would it be enough today?also the blade he uses, pretty slow, is perfect for this control oriented game.

2- his backhand block is awesome. it's not the block that is awesome cause blocking is just putting the paddle out there. what is awesome is the anticipation.

3- his backhand topspin is pretty good. but this is like once in a while, when he has time and wants to win the point./QUOTE]

Let's say that Waldner enters a time machine after the 1992 olympics and has to prepare the WTTC 2015 or OG 2016

Re 1: Waldner had a great forehand flick in addition the to push. His blade was fast enough in the days of speed-glueing and 38mm ball. He might have used something different today. The Banana flick is a good receive but not that necessary IMO. Samsonov beat ZJK in 2013 without it and Ma Long hardly uses it and has a winning record against every single player. It might even be a bad idea to use this excessively against Waldner as he could counter to awkward areas. It can be learned and Timo Boll is using it nowadays despite not using it for more than the first 15 years of his career.

Re 3: Even today, it's not that common to see a backhand topspin against an aggressive-fast topspinning ball except by the main Chinese players. Even Boll prefers to step around. Players do use it against normal topspins. Just compare to how Boll plays european players versus how he plays Chinese players.

Xu Xin has made it to no. 1 despite being a 1.5 winged looper. A strong backhand topspin is definitely good to have but not as important for Waldner's game IMO as he was never a mid-distance looper.

sebas-aguirre · Jan 6, 2015

samsonov has a similar style to waldner in terms of backhand.
also in those years they could get away more with a long hidden serve, expect a push and automatically attack with forehand.
today players are more afraid to serve long because they just get attacked right away (no hidden serves).

look for example at the serve receive of samsonov at 0:43
super passive.

anyway it's a big plus and a testimony of their talent for guys like samsonov that are still up there in the top 20 with so much time passed, rules changed and young players coming in.

Powerlooppaulo · Jan 6, 2015

sebas-aguirre said:
yes, good example of old school versus new school.
new school is constant pressure through looping, a passive shot is an invitation to attack.

I think in the old days there was a big advantage in serving.
it was serve, the other guy struggled to recognize spin, he would push and you automatically attacked with forehand.

as for the other guy, his ranking is around 250, he's good but not super top level.
I think he looks so fast because waldner is so passive.

Im sure waldner is 50+ tho so hes bound to be passive?

Outerveneer · Jan 6, 2015

TTFrenzy said:
His BH topsping against backspin was definitely not at a pro level, compared to Appelgren,Karlsson, or Persson. He had a fantastic feel for the backhand punch which was a good technique to use with 38mm ball cause you could flat/smash/kill a ball easily if you were gifted with feeling as waldner was.

Most of the times he didnt use his BH cause he knew he wasnt good at it, insted he tried to use it as a link stroke to his FH or play some fast counter BH shots with lots of wrist snap instead

Agree. One think that made Waldner so good is that he build his game style perfectly after his strengths and weaknessesm

huri · Jan 6, 2015

waldner's style could be oldschool and not effective today ... but mind you he played Ma Long in his 40's in 2009 and managed to take 2 sets ... pretty darn impressive ... and i would love to see young 90's waldner vs pretty much any modern chineese player ... not saying he would win but it would be epic

CroneOne · Jan 6, 2015

Waldner is much more lively in this recent match. Saive's style looks exhausting, although it seems he was always that animated.

sebas-aguirre · Jan 7, 2015

personally I don't see any problem with waldner's style or his passiveness.
he clearly knows when to be passive and when to push the speed.

the question was more like what's better, to develop a backhand similar to waldner which is direct, hitting the ball with an open racket, rubber perpendicular to the floor
or
a more windmill circular movement type of backhand like fan zhendong and chuang chih yuan.

in the video above you can see perfectly the difference in technique between waldner and the other guys.
for example the point at 1:50

anchorschmidt · Jan 7, 2015

sebas-aguirre said:
personally I don't see any problem with waldner's style or his passiveness.
he clearly knows when to be passive and when to push the speed.

the question was more like what's better, to develop a backhand similar to waldner which is direct, hitting the ball with an open racket, rubber perpendicular to the floor
or
a more windmill circular movement type of backhand like fan zhendong and chuang chih yuan.

in the video above you can see perfectly the difference in technique between waldner and the other guys.
for example the point at 1:50

I think it depends what kind of style you have. Waldner tries to stay at the table as much as possible and tries to move his opponent to awkward positions using clever serves and placements. Perhaps his style of backhand suits him better as he can make last millisecond changes. Persson was using the modern backhand back in the 90s so Waldner clearly chose not to use it for his game.

If you are a mid-distance looper then the more powerful but time-consuming backhand. I think that players with a shorter stature like CCY and FZD can use the "proper" backhand close to the table as well.

Waldner also had a very unconventional opening backhand loop (very vertical). He used it in his match against Ma Long and Ma Long missed the table the first time he saw it, which suggests that it was very spinny but it wasn't fast.

If you compare Waldner's match against Ma Long in 2009 when he was much better than he is today, you can make out that his game doesn't have many weaknesses and that he looked a lot better against Ma Long compared to many modern European players.

sebas-aguirre · Jan 7, 2015

I think when you start and actually 99% of the club players have a similar backhand to waldner.
in order to develop a similar backhand to chuang chih yuan you need to take the ball earlier, stay lower and also it's a different movement really.
I think technically it's harder to execute it chuang's style or william henzell does the same type of backhand if you want another example.
but these guys use it like 100% of the time so you wonder if maybe it's just a new bh technique.

to emphasize the difference:
small looping style

flat waldner style

Powerlooppaulo · Jan 8, 2015

A ha, thats better!

Powerlooppaulo · Jan 8, 2015

I wonder how he would loop say heavy backspin?

WallinJr · Jun 27, 2015

It really would be interesting seeing waldner today against todays chineese if he would have been able do win with that backhand or not

Waldner1965 · Jun 28, 2015

Powerlooppaulo said:
Im sure waldner is 50+ tho so hes bound to be passive?

Waldner is not 50+ : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan-Ove_Waldner

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