China Open 2019

[RidTheKid]

That is true for any generation that follow another great generation. It's about evolving. I want Wang Hao to start practicing hard for 6 months and he and ML can have a final showdown in the Birds Nest in Beijing. WH wouldn't get one set against this version of ML.

It goes back to the imapct of the golden generation of European table tennis. ML wouldn't have developed into how he is now without the success(proof of concept) and legacies of those before him.

That's why some insist Greatest of All Time makes no sense and why I differentiate it from most decorated. You can't make a fair comparison without taking all those factors into account. Take Guo Yuehua for example. He retired before table tennis became part of the Olympics. Would that make him any less great than players after him? You see, Waldner says he regrets he couldn't play Guo Yuehua once in his heyday. He respects Guo Yuehua and Jiang Jialiang way more than he does Liu Guoliang and Kong Linghui, despite the latter being Grand Slam holders. That's the kind of respect for legacies I'm talking about, not something superficial like number of titles.

http://sports.sina.com.cn/others/pingpang/2019-04-11/doc-ihvhiewr4727577.shtml

"Guo Yuehua won two singles titles in the World Championships and is also very famous in Sweden. He played so well that, while watching him play you can enjoy the magic of table tennis. It's a shame I didn't meet him once during his heyday. Before I won the world championship, Jiang Jialiang was already very successful. He was the role model I pursued and the one I always wanted to defeat. It means so much to snatch the championship from others." Speaking of Liu Guoliang and Kong Linghui, Waldner said that he respects them very much, but it doesn't come close to that for Guo Yuehua and Jiang Jialiang. "All three of us are grand slam holders. They are 2 generations younger than me." The implication may be that I pursued Guo Yuehua and Jiang Jialiang, and they are the people who pursued me. "I have played so many years and I have met several generations of Chinese players. I think what I'm to them is like how they're to me. Pushing and encouraging each other."

 

[RidTheKid]

Bh exchanges Mr, exchanges.

I have and I cannot find one. Look at the match vs Calderano at WTTC. Ma Long won the vast majority of his points with forehand shots and opened very little with the backhand. Same vs FZD at China Open. So I want you to explain why I am looking at it wrong. He is getting in some backhand winners or using it to set up his forehand but he is not the winner of the backhand matchup.

 

[NextLevel]

Bh exchanges Mr, exchanges.

Good backhand players rarely exchange backhands. And Ma Long usually moves his placement around to set up his forehand.

But even by this standard, can you please point out the match that you claim represents the kind of exchange you are talking about. Just list one, and we can discuss it.

 

[RidTheKid]

You mean good players don't play to their strength? If you meant something else please clarify.

Ma Long used to play very much the way you mention, bh setting up a fh kill, but like I said, you can watch ANY match since his comeback and Ma Long has put more focus in winning those bh exchanges with his own bh. Like Atas Newton said, it can be very well an Alpha game where ML wanna show his opponents that they have nothing to gain going to his bh. Well, watch his match vs FZD in China Open 2019, or against TH in the same tournament. Two players who are supposed to have better (more consistent and crucial shots) bh but they can't exploit ML's bh because it's not a weakness anymore. They actually lose more points here than they win against ML.

Good backhand players rarely exchange backhands. And Ma Long usually moves his placement around to set up his forehand.

But even by this standard, can you please point out the match that you claim represents the kind of exchange you are talking about. Just list one, and we can discuss it.

 

[NextLevel]

You mean good players don't play to their strength? If you meant something else please clarify.

Ma Long used to play very much the way you mention, bh setting up a fh kill, but like I said, you can watch ANY match since his comeback and Ma Long has put more focus in winning those bh exchanges with his own bh. Like Atas Newton said, it can be very well an Alpha game where ML wanna show his opponents that they have nothing to gain going to his bh. Well, watch his match vs FZD in China Open 2019, or against TH in the same tournament. Two players who are supposed to have better (more consistent and crucial shots) bh but they can't exploit ML's bh because it's not a weakness anymore. They actually lose more points here than they win against ML.

Rather than continue to dispute your understanding of table tennis and what constitutes backhand play, let us focus on my question. Can you point out which match you are pointing to as your illustration that Ma Long dominated the backhand points (supposedly the exchanges) and has the best backhand in the world?

 

[Zaid323918]

I'd just like to point out that what makes someone's backhand the best is subjective and has a lot of factors. Best in terms of power, speed, and spin? Best in placement? Best in consistency? and so on. In my opinion FZD has a more powerful BH than ML (he can hit a faster stroke) but ML has more consistency.

 

[RidTheKid]

Who's bh has more winners in exchange or outright winners, or setup for winner? Just watch the match from China Open and start counting Hint, Ma Long didn't win 4 sets with only his fh I don't care about who has more power, if that power doesn't amount to a winning shot it's irrelevant. It's like some common person who owns a Ferrari is to compete against Hamilton in a Golf GTI. If we are having a contest who can hit the fastest bh shot then power becomes relevant.

I'd just like to point out that what makes someone's backhand the best is subjective and has a lot of factors. Best in terms of power, speed, and spin? Best in placement? Best in consistency? and so on. In my opinion FZD has a more powerful BH than ML (he can hit a faster stroke) but ML has more consistency.

 

[RidTheKid]

You didn't read my post or ignored it even though you quote it? Your question has been answered.

Rather than continue to dispute your understanding of table tennis and what constitutes backhand play, let us focus on my question. Can you point out which match you are pointing to as your illustration that Ma Long dominated the backhand points (supposedly the exchanges) and has the best backhand in the world?

 

[NextLevel]

I'd just like to point out that what makes someone's backhand the best is subjective and has a lot of factors. Best in terms of power, speed, and spin? Best in placement? Best in consistency? and so on. In my opinion FZD has a more powerful BH than ML (he can hit a faster stroke) but ML has more consistency.

ML has one of the best backhands in the world no doubt. I am just trying to understand what RTK is saying. After all, her are the highlights of ML vs the guy I think has the beat overall backhand play on CNT.

https://youtu.be/b7dmkieIb10

Do you think ML is dominating the backhand rallies? Unfortunately the first set is missing but you can see my point.

ML has a very strong backhand and it does what it needs to do. But the moneymaker is the forehand and you can simply say that his skill set is complete (DOH) while accepting that he doesn't need his backhand to be special most of the time. Wang Liqin had a similar approach in a different era with less aggressive backhand play.

 

[RidTheKid]

Sorry but it's not subjective. I'm not asking what the nicest color is. Some things we just know

I'd just like to point out that what makes someone's backhand the best is subjective and has a lot of factors. Best in terms of power, speed, and spin? Best in placement? Best in consistency? and so on. In my opinion FZD has a more powerful BH than ML (he can hit a faster stroke) but ML has more consistency.

 

[RidTheKid]

WLQ and ML were similar 7 years ago when ML's bh was quite weak and only there to setup his fh. I've never seen WLQ hold his own an entire match with his bh, always pivoting to his fh. ML is on another level when it comes to being complete.

ML has one of the best backhands in the world no doubt. I am just trying to understand what RTK is saying. After all, her are the highlights of ML vs the guy I think has the beat overall backhand play on CNT.

https://youtu.be/b7dmkieIb10

Do you think ML is dominating the backhand rallies? Unfortunately the first set is missing but you can see my point.

ML has a very strong backhand and it does what it needs to do. But the moneymaker is the forehand and you can simply say that his skill set is complete (DOH) while accepting that he doesn't need his backhand to be special most of the time. Wang Liqin had a similar approach in a different era with less aggressive backhand play.

 

[Zaid323918]

Who's bh has more winners in exchange or outright winners, or setup for winner? Just watch the match from China Open and start counting Hint, Ma Long didn't win 4 sets with only his fh I don't care about who has more power, if that power doesn't amount to a winning shot it's irrelevant. It's like some common person who owns a Ferrari is to compete against Hamilton in a Golf GTI. If we are having a contest who can hit the fastest bh shot then power becomes relevant.

I was not saying that ML's BH is inferior to FZD or vice-versa. And I do agree that ML won more BH to BH exhanges than FZD in their China open match. FZD made quite a few errors with his BH flicks and exchanges. ML did a good job of keeping the rallies quick and close to the table and not letting FZD use his powerful off the table BH

 

[NextLevel]

WLQ and ML were similar 7 years ago when ML's bh was quite weak and only there to setup his fh. I've never seen WLQ hold his own an entire match with his bh, always pivoting to his fh. ML is on another level when it comes to being complete.

No, they weren't. Backhand play was different in WLQ's era vs ML's era. What ML has upgraded his backhand to compete with was similar to the demands that WLQ put on his backhand in order to remain relevant.

 

[NextLevel]

I was not saying that ML's BH is inferior to FZD or vice-versa. And I do agree that ML won more BH to BH exhanges than FZD in their China open match. FZD made quite a few errors with his BH flicks and exchanges. ML did a good job of keeping the rallies quick and close to the table and not letting FZD use his powerful off the table BH

You need to watch the FZD - ML match and explain what is a backhand rally. People don't play into the backhand usually they play to elbow or wide and they try to pivot to use the forehand. Sometimes they go for opening winner, sometimes they play down the line.

ML has a great backhand and it is one of the best in the world when you look at how it complements his game. Using it directly isn't how he usually wins points against peers and this is just more fanboism from RTK.

 

[Zaid323918]

You need to watch the FZD - ML match and explain what is a backhand rally. People don't play into the backhand usually they play to elbow or wide and they try to pivot to use the forehand. Sometimes they go for opening winner, sometimes they play down the line.

ML has a great backhand and it is one of the best in the world when you look at how it complements his game. Using it directly isn't how he usually wins points against peers and this is just more fanboism from RTK.

I agree it didn't win him direct points as FZD was making errors. The fact that ML was able to keep the pressure on him to force those errors doesn't mean ML's bh is now better than FZD's.

 

[NextLevel]

You didn't read my post or ignored it even though you quote it? Your question has been answered.

I wanted one match. In any case, here are the two.

https://youtu.be/2WsUt4XcV-w
https://youtu.be/27f16Gy5y74

Please discuss the points where Ma Long is showing his backhand is superior to FZD or Harimoto. After work, I may count the points won etc.

 

[RidTheKid]

Haha seriously...so FZD's opponent who forced those errors upon him will get no credit?

I agree it didn't win him direct points as FZD was making errors. The fact that ML was able to keep the pressure on him to force those errors doesn't mean ML's bh is now better than FZD's.

 

[RidTheKid]

His bh does win him points directly in the bh exchange, I think you need to watch ML more. You seem to argue for the sake of argument. Everyones bh 2019 complements their game, it's one part of a players game. What's your point?

You need to watch the FZD - ML match and explain what is a backhand rally. People don't play into the backhand usually they play to elbow or wide and they try to pivot to use the forehand. Sometimes they go for opening winner, sometimes they play down the line.

ML has a great backhand and it is one of the best in the world when you look at how it complements his game. Using it directly isn't how he usually wins points against peers and this is just more fanboism from RTK.

 

[NextLevel]

His bh does win him points directly in the bh exchange, I think you need to watch ML more. You seem to argue for the sake of argument. Everyones bh 2019 complements their game, it's one part of a players game. What's your point?

Yes, while his opponents always win more with their backhand or backhand exchange because Ma Long plays more forehands. So how does this make his backhand better than theirs?

You seem to just argue like a Fsnboi.

 

[RidTheKid]

Sorry mate, I'm not gonna go through every point and take notes for you. If you know your TT you'll see that ML's bh is not inferior to anyones. On the contrary, it wins him many points. He's efficient, no bh flicking from the fh corner like FZD and TH and get out of position. If you were seriously interested in discussing this you'd analyze the match yourself, it's typical trolling to get others to do the job for them. Not biting

I wanted one match. In any case, here are the two.

https://youtu.be/2WsUt4XcV-w
https://youtu.be/27f16Gy5y74

Please discuss the points where Ma Long is showing his backhand is superior to FZD or Harimoto. After work, I may count the points won etc.