Common Sense Rubbers

[NextLevel]

I would chuck Roundell in the mix

Is that rubber still alive? Is Bryce as well?

 

[Der_Echte]

USATT 1200 is too much low to be able to use Rasanters, Vega Pro/X and somehow even Rozenas. It would be better to stick to Vega Euro, Stiga DNA Future rubbers, or that would be really soft Rasanters like the 37 or 42, not much !

The U1200 USATT player I coach has Tibhar MX-D on his FH on a fast blade... That rubber is seriously juicy on the top end and the blade makes it even juicier... yet I see several professionally coached Bay Area developing juniors who are using this rubber too. This rubber makes hits precise, but it is also not difficult to make a slow heavy topspin - a major touch and feel shot I want this player to develop.

Sure, the pundit coaches recommend a slow blade slowish medium rubbers... and that way works... and has a long history of proof... but it isn't the only way. This player has improved significantly in training level (like 500+ points better in well under a year) and it is now beginning to show in sanctioned tourney level like it should 6-12 months later after improvement. ( in a recent tourney, he defeated a player 300 points higher rated and should have won vs the 200 points higher rated one if he trusted himself to serve and spin it up)

I purposely avoided dictating what he should use for blade and rubbers... I assessed he would benefit more from the pure fundamentals of the sport with rubbers that are suitable enough... and oddly enough, MX-D is suitable for him, both now and later.

 

[Der_Echte]

I haven't used the Tibhar Aurus Prime for a lot other than a few hits, is it really easy to use?
How is it on flat hits and for example flicks which is easier for non sensitive topsheets?

Prime has a little softer sponge than regular Aurus... and regular Aurus flipped just fine... a softer sponge makes it a little easier for the ball to get into the sponge more... and that topsheet of Aurus is nice, like supple Italian leather when new.

 

[Der_Echte]

USATT 1200 is too much low to be able to use Rasanters, Vega Pro/X and somehow even Rozenas. It would be better to stick to Vega Euro, Stiga DNA Future rubbers, or that would be really soft Rasanters like the 37 or 42, not much !

Honestly, in USA, if we look at a group of 100 players in the range of 1000-1500 USATT who have been that level not improving for 10-40 years, then examine each individual's shot making, footwork, impact, biomechanics, tactics, adjustments, etc... we begin to see some common data.

What I see in nearly every case is that it would not matter if these players used old Sriver or the fastest Diginiski... they play at and stay at that level due to serious under-development of the technical, tactical, and mental things I discussed.

One example is a 70 yr old gent who had a BTY ALC blade with Tenergy rubbers... he asked me if his bat was good or bad for him... I had a hit with him and saw that he was so lacking in technique that it would not matter what he used, so long as he was happy with it. The equipment had very little to do with how often he landed the ball on the table, it was his poor technique and I am being generous. I told him that his bat was just fine for him... he has very poor biomechanics and needs a faster bat to make some kind of pace... and that it would not matter until he got some years of professional lessons.

This gent was NOT going to spend the money on a coach and the time to go from 600 to 1600 USATT... he prolly didn't have that kind of time left on his clock anyway... nor the budget for lessons, car, fuel, and equipment - he was best served simply enjoying his time in the TT hall with what he had.

 

[hclnnkhg]

The U1200 USATT player I coach has Tibhar MX-D on his FH on a fast blade... That rubber is seriously juicy on the top end and the blade makes it even juicier... yet I see several professionally coached Bay Area developing juniors who are using this rubber too. This rubber makes hits precise, but it is also not difficult to make a slow heavy topspin - a major touch and feel shot I want this player to develop.

Sure, the pundit coaches recommend a slow blade slowish medium rubbers... and that way works... and has a long history of proof... but it isn't the only way. This player has improved significantly in training level (like 500+ points better in well under a year) and it is now beginning to show in sanctioned tourney level like it should 6-12 months later after improvement. ( in a recent tourney, he defeated a player 300 points higher rated and should have won vs the 200 points higher rated one if he trusted himself to serve and spin it up)

I purposely avoided dictating what he should use for blade and rubbers... I assessed he would benefit more from the pure fundamentals of the sport with rubbers that are suitable enough... and oddly enough, MX-D is suitable for him, both now and later.

With good coaching, fast equipment isn't a big problem. Without coaching, amateur players would develop all kinds of bad habits with overly fast and/or spinny/spin-sensitive equipments.

 

[Der_Echte]

That last post I made sounds VERY harsh, but it is a reality.

There are a gazillion reasons why players stay at the level they are for 2, 12, or 52 years.

These reasons ALWAYS include NOT doing the things needed to improve This could be one or all of: a lack of funds for coaching, not enough commitment to training, or poor access to a coach who can develop an adult player, or even worse, a coach who is not capable of developing an adult player. (or even worse, taking lessons without the goal of improvement)

I have even seen some rich old cats pay big time top money to the head coach of the big TT training center for private lessons... they took said lessons for DECADES... improved their FH topspin from a block to a predictable place with a certain consistent speed and spin coming to them... but these rich dudes could not play well in any points or matches to save their checkbook from a sporting bet.

Why? They basically wanted to have a higly paid ball feeder/returner who speaks tasty white lies to their ears. Well, more p[ower to that crowd !! It is their funds and they get to chose how to spend them.

 

[NextLevel]

With good coaching, fast equipment isn't a big problem. Without coaching, amateur players would develop all kinds of bad habits with overly fast and/or spinny/spin-sensitive equipments.

This is arguably true but I think the words "fast equipment" hide a lot of details - not all fast setups can be mastered easily by attackers or defenders and it is possible to go too slow as well. Let's just say that part of the coach's responsibility is to ensure that the player is using equipment that encourages them to to play well.

 

[NextLevel]

The U1200 USATT player I coach has Tibhar MX-D on his FH on a fast blade... That rubber is seriously juicy on the top end and the blade makes it even juicier... yet I see several professionally coached Bay Area developing juniors who are using this rubber too. This rubber makes hits precise, but it is also not difficult to make a slow heavy topspin - a major touch and feel shot I want this player to develop.

Sure, the pundit coaches recommend a slow blade slowish medium rubbers... and that way works... and has a long history of proof... but it isn't the only way. This player has improved significantly in training level (like 500+ points better in well under a year) and it is now beginning to show in sanctioned tourney level like it should 6-12 months later after improvement. ( in a recent tourney, he defeated a player 300 points higher rated and should have won vs the 200 points higher rated one if he trusted himself to serve and spin it up)

I purposely avoided dictating what he should use for blade and rubbers... I assessed he would benefit more from the pure fundamentals of the sport with rubbers that are suitable enough... and oddly enough, MX-D is suitable for him, both now and later.

He is using a looping blade with looping rubbers right? Or is he using a Sardius or Primorac Carbon or Schlager Carbon? Trying to get some info on speed.

 

[TheProfessor]

Right now I play 6-8 hours per week. So changing every 3-4 months sounds about right?

Yeah that's around 100 hours of gameplay for the rubber, that sounds just about right for it to be replaced.
People need to think more like this, in terms of playing hours compared to duration of how long the rubber has been attached to the blade.

 

[Der_Echte]

With good coaching, fast equipment isn't a big problem. Without coaching, amateur players would develop all kinds of bad habits with overly fast and/or spinny/spin-sensitive equipments.

TRUTH.

Maybe a TRUTH BOMB to those who do not believe that. (Your first sentence)

When you say that uncoached/unguided players who play with fast equipment develop many diverse bad habits... I believe that is true, but not because said equipment is fast. It is a minor contributor. A player who is not coached or guided effectively will NOT have footwork, a crouched stance, leverage, recognition of impact, anticipation of where the ball will go and how/when with what, skills of setting the strike zone and commanding the zone, efficient biomechanics for ball striking, recovery, basic knowledge of the sprot and tactics... I could go on and on and on.... what I just laid out are overwhelmingly some of the things that contribute to shots made and points won.

... but the things I mentioned above that have nothing to do with equipment are exactly the things an uncoached/unguided player gets terrible at... and these things contribute to missed points, losses games, and losses of matches more than equipment by at least a 10 times factor. Appropriate equipment in the hands of such poorly developed players on their own will have the same result. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig. You can polish a turd, but it is still a piece of a turd. That sounds harsh, but I am keeping it real.

Where it really counts more is with the developing player to emphasize feedback of when the ball was struck right... or to make it easier to do something specific, like get the ball into the sponge and medium topspin... and even then, it doesn't count as much as one thinks. It begins to matter a lot more at 2100+ levels... but so few of us get to that level it is almost irrelevant.

 

[TheProfessor]

Prime has a little softer sponge than regular Aurus... and regular Aurus flipped just fine... a softer sponge makes it a little easier for the ball to get into the sponge more... and that topsheet of Aurus is nice, like supple Italian leather when new.

I tried the regular Aurus for a while on a Tibhar Kim Jung Hoon blade back in the day, it controlled very well but just had a weird feeling.
I haven't had the chance to use Aurus on my FH on an ALC blade, the Aurus Soft on my BH on a Viscaria-esque blade I had, worked wonders with Kreanga style BH loops.

 

[Der_Echte]

As much as I just said a lot of frank talk... I was EXACTLY in that boat as a recreational player.

Zero access to a coach.

ZERO TT players in my city of 100,000 plus.

ZERO TT halls, nearest lace 160 km away and it would be closed by the time I drive there...

I wanted to improve, but if all I could do is occasionally hit at someone's garage with another rec player, HOW am I going to develop? What kind of bad habits would I get?

Der_Echte WAS exactly that kind of pig sporting the lipstick... until he got around a better access to daily TT, a coach, better players around me, ability to afford membership in a club, time available to play daily, tourneys, feedback on what went wrong and effective training to overcome it... development of all the things I discussed in prior posts...

so all those harsh works applied DIRECTLY to me too, until I could overcome it with better circumstances.

 

[Der_Echte]

I tried the regular Aurus for a while on a Tibhar Kim Jung Hoon blade back in the day, it controlled very well but just had a weird feeling.
I haven't had the chance to use Aurus on my FH on an ALC blade, the Aurus Soft on my BH on a Viscaria-esque blade I had, worked wonders with Kreanga style BH loops.

I used Aurus back in Korea in 2012 a replacement for T05 after BTY jacked up the price to $75 USD a sheet... I loved Aurus, it suited me just fine, could do most everything easy with it... but after I left Korea, I started to use newer rubbers...

... then I put a new sheet of Aurus to feel it... to see what it would feel like after 10 years and a LOT of improvement... I can say that I can do pretty much with Aurus what I could do with MX-K or MX-P given my improvements... I can hit HARDER with Aurus. That counts.

 

[Der_Echte]

Yeah that's around 100 hours of gameplay for the rubber, that sounds just about right for it to be replaced.
People need to think more like this, in terms of playing hours compared to duration of how long the rubber has been attached to the blade.

I Korea, I could barely get 80 hrs out of T05... could get 300 hrs out of Aurus. Go figure.

 

[Der_Echte]

He is using a looping blade with looping rubbers right? Or is he using a Sardius or Primorac Carbon or Schlager Carbon? Trying to get some info on speed.

NL,

I will PM you with exactly what he uses and how it is going... but I can confidently say he is beginning to develop feel and much improvement in just about every area of TT. I can say with truth and integrity that this FH (MX-D) rubber is not holding him back at all.

I would like for him to use a more "Reasonable" blade too, but that is not a huge hindrance to him and his development.

In fact, my own personal experience with gearing down from a faster blade to a slower one for a few months is that EVERY time I did that for a few months (and used the same rubbers) and went back to the faster blades, that my play level IMPROVED EACH TIME. I prolly did this a dozen times over the last 10 years (due to blades not lasting me much time)

I recently gave him a few slower blades for this purpose... and he seems interested in trying that... so maybe it will work for him too.

I also had a similar experience going to a firmer sponge on FH for a time. I was not quite good enough on impact to make the most out of MX-K 47 sponge 2.2..... I used Etika 51 sponge for 6-8 months,.. then picked up[ one of my Nate OFF koto outer wood blades... suddenly my impact was wonderful for that medium firm sponged rubber !!

Playing with and Etika 51 really helped me develop my impact depth on FH so I could get more out of the medium sponged rubber on FH. I am no longer a softie only on FH.

 

[NextLevel]

The thing with equipment holding back a player is that you never know until the player actually tries something else. Thankfully like you said he is interested in trying something else out. It is hard to develop range and good ball feeling on equipment that is too fast. For me, too fast usually means you have left the realm of looping blades. The blade you bring up is very borderline and I suspect it is hurting his development but I can see why you think it isn't because he isn't at the level where certain things matter and he is playing well at the level he is currently at. The one thing I have noticed is that many players go to faster equipment as they get older if they have offensive styles in order to keep up when rallying, especially if they have good touch. The most important thing is that you are there to guide him if he wants to try something else. And his blade is not at the extremes of what I consider unplayable but it is very close.

 

[Der_Echte]

The thing with equipment holding back a player is that you never know until the player actually tries something else. Thankfully like you said he is interested in trying something else out. It is hard to develop range and good ball feeling on equipment that is too fast. For me, too fast usually means you have left the realm of looping blades. The blade you bring up is very borderline and I suspect it is hurting his development but I can see why you think it isn't because he isn't at the level where certain things matter and he is playing well at the level he is currently at. The one thing I have noticed is that many players go to faster equipment as they get older if they have offensive styles in order to keep up when rallying, especially if they have good touch. The most important thing is that you are there to guide him if he wants to try something else. And his blade is not at the extremes of what I consider unplayable but it is very close.

I can say what I THINK or FEEL about this - (gearing down to a slower blade with some more feel)

What I think is going on is that the different blade makes you execute the touch differently... and makes you change your feel... the timing you use to loosen or firm grip... the base and final pressure... and I believe this makes one more capable later. This is a reasonable explanation for what I experienced gearing down 10+ times for a few months and going back to faster stuff... that I felt more capable to use the faster blade each time I geared down then back up.

Of course I have zero way to measure this and quantify it other than better performance after going back to the faster blade.

Either way, I would feel a lot better if he used Nate's all wood OFF Koto outer blade or the Donic Persson Power Play OFF- blade for a spell.

I think so many weeks or months after he does that, he will appreciate his development of touch.

Even though we are using a different way or explanation, I believe we are both convinced he will do well with either of the two blades I gave him. he intends to use the same rubbers, which is a good thing.

 

[NextLevel]

I can say what I THINK or FEEL about this - (gearing down to a slower blade with some more feel)

What I think is going on is that the different blade makes you execute the touch differently... and makes you change your feel... the timing you use to loosen or firm grip... the base and final pressure... and I believe this makes one more capable later. This is a reasonable explanation for what I experienced gearing down 10+ times for a few months and going back to faster stuff... that I felt more capable to use the faster blade each time I geared down then back up.

Of course I have zero way to measure this and quantify it other than better performance after going back to the faster blade.

Either way, I would feel a lot better if he used Nate's all wood OFF Koto outer blade or the Donic Persson Power Play OFF- blade for a spell.

I think so many weeks or months after he does that, he will appreciate his development of touch.

Even though we are using a different way or explanation, I believe we are both convinced he will do well with either of the two blades I gave him. he intends to use the same rubbers, which is a good thing.

Is he using the rubbers in his profile? Or something else?

 

[Der_Echte]

Is he using the rubbers in his profile? Or something else?

His FH is MX-D and BH is Aurus for the last 2-3 months.

 

[NextLevel]

His FH is MX-D and BH is Aurus for the last 2-3 months.

I actually think the whole setup is too fast especially the forehand rubber because he is using that particular blade. That said, the most important thing, above all other things, is to have fun and he is clearly having fun since he is putting so much time in. If that setup is what keeps him having fun, as long as he is happy with his rate of improvement, that is the most important thing. But in my mind, there is no doubt that the setup as is is preventing him from confidently developing certain skills. Your blade recommendations are great and even the traditional model of his current blade would probably be better. One thing I encourage people to do is to measure the frequencies of the blades they use - it helps to bring data and measurements to a subjective topic, and while you can get better at using higher frequency blades, it is very easy to use frequency measurements to tell how long and how likely you are to adapt to a blade based on the frequency of the blade you currently use.

Blade Speed Comparison Sheet

Given that most of the links are buried in the original thread started by slevin, I wanted to make a...

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