Countering heavy top challenge

[blahness]

Hi blahness,

I get it, that player DOES toss the ball vertical, but it is only projected upwards 1-2 inches... and for the type of serve he is doing, it makes it WAY easier to do and provides an unfair advantage in excess of the expected advantage a serve is supposed to give you support an immediate offensive advantage.

In 2024, there is NO WAY that cat doesn't know the laws of TT. it is like saying a 55 yr old uncle or auntie does not know the rules of the road and drives a car every day or week. That means he is snake shyt low on the scale of TT integrity until he repents of his wickedness.

He is definitely cheating, but what Im saying is that there's even worse cheaters around. This is why sometimes I hate this sport and prefer badminton at times.

 

[Wrighty67]

Hi blahness,

I get it, that player DOES toss the ball vertical, but it is only projected upwards 1-2 inches... and for the type of serve he is doing, it makes it WAY easier to do and provides an unfair advantage in excess of the expected advantage a serve is supposed to give you support an immediate offensive advantage.

In 2024, there is NO WAY that cat doesn't know the laws of TT. it is like saying a 55 yr old uncle or auntie does not know the rules of the road and drives a car every day or week. That means he is snake shyt low on the scale of TT integrity until he repents of his wickedness.

Last night he was called on it by my teammate more than once - not much changed but he did try to show the ball at least.

 

[Aizen]

He doesn't even tossing the ball (at max 2-3 cm) only quickly lowering the hand. Unfortunately it's common thing.

 

[vossi39]

From my point of view there are 3 things you want to focus on:

• Stay low. With this high arching balls, one tends to straigten up. For blocking this is wrong. For smashing fine, but not blocking or countering.
• You are way to late. Blocking should happen in the rising phase of the ball. And you need to get over the ball, not behind the ball. Closed racket angle was already mentioned.
• Loose wrist/grip. Try to mini topspin against the ball, which should help to keep the ball low and fast.

 

[Ghostzen]

He is definitely cheating, but what Im saying is that there's even worse cheaters around. This is why sometimes I hate this sport and prefer badminton at times.

Definitely serve action looks below what is expected from the angle of the brief clip.

Cheating is a very strong word...
Glad someone mentioned it as the player can try and address it now and improve.

 

[Der_Echte]

He is definitely cheating, but what Im saying is that there's even worse cheaters around. This is why sometimes I hate this sport and prefer badminton at times.

Have to agree with what you said.

 

[Aizen]

Definitely serve action looks below what is expected from the angle of the brief clip.

Cheating is a very strong word...
Glad someone mentioned it as the player can try and address it now and improve.

Agree, cheating is a strong word but

let's look at the possibilities:
1- He doesn't even know the rule
2- He can't able to serve legally at all (toss 15cm, then hit)
3- He don't aware from his serve, not (enough) warned before
4- He doesn't care the rules (nastier serve is more important)
5- He does because others do as well as a retaliation

The last two seems to me as cheating, but also he seems experienced enough to not fall in first 3 possibilities.

 

[Ghostzen]

Agree, cheating is a strong word but

let's look at the possibilities:
1- He doesn't even know the rule
2- He can't able to serve legally at all (toss 15cm, then hit)
3- He don't aware from his serve, not (enough) warned before
4- He doesn't care the rules (nastier serve is more important)
5- He does because others do as well as a retaliation

The last two seems to me as cheating, but also he seems experienced enough to not fall in first 3 possibilities.

All options to be fair. Some more possible than others.
I don't know the player serving but always air on by mistake than deliberate. So I would go no 3.

How many competing players do you know that are cheating with malicious intent.. Honestly where I play very very few.

Thats my rational

 

[blahness]

Have to agree with what you said.

It is almost impossible to cheat in badminton. The atmosphere is definitely better imo. And you get a way better aerobic workout with badminton.

 

[vvk1]

All this whining about illegal serves is utterly counterproductive - the OP is not losing because of the opponent's serves.

In 2nd division local leagues here in UK whomever can spin the ball first wins most of the time.

Both players in the video serve long with little spin. The opponent pushes OP's serves back and OP pushes back instead of looping, opponent loops first and wins most of the time. Opponent's serves are long and when they are not attacked with a spinny loop (like 1st point), pushing them results in a deep/high ball which the opponent loops, wins most of the time. That's why the opponent's win average is so much higher than the OP's ...

In other words, the opponent has a winning tactic - loop first - and is able to execute it, while the OP does seem to have one or cannot execute his.

The solution is simple and works against the vast majority of 2nd division players. Short underspin serve, they push, you do a slow spinny loop. When they serve long, never push back, always respond with a spinny loop. When they serve short, push back short and wait for a long push which you then loop. Practice that and you will start beating the majority of 2nd div players very easily.

 

[NDH]

Tell me you've never played UK Local League without telling me you've never played UK Local League 😂

Blimey, those serves would be considered moderately OK in most divisions of the UK scene.

Very few players feel comfortable calling out serves - The umpires will almost certainly never do it (bear in mind the umpires are just players from the match).

Anyway, serves aside (although that was an amusing sideshow to the thread).

Wrighty, you've got 2 options here.

1. Get to the bounce, soft hands, block to be consistent.

You'll need to get over the ball and let his spin do the work.

I'd be surprised if he was going to get 3/4/5 loops on in a row.

2. Counter - A harder shot, but given how slow the incoming loop is, I reckon you've got it in the bag.

Like others have said, get over the ball and don't be taking it too late.

In this photo from your first counter loop attempt you have dropped your hand too much, which will force you to hit up on the ball and send it long (which happened).

Instead, when you take your hand back, do so at a much higher level (imagine it was in line with the guy in blue (sitting down) shoulder).

As you hit through the ball, just make sure to stay on top of it (the rest of the technique is fine for now).

That little change in where you start will make a huge difference.

Also, to anyone from around the world watching - This is classic UK Local League.... Ma Long wouldn't stand a chance! 😂

 

[NetProphet]

It is almost impossible to cheat in badminton. The atmosphere is definitely better imo. And you get a way better aerobic workout with badminton.

Do you have a badminton forum? Sounds like you need one!!

 

[jammmail]

The FH at 0:24 is pure Bobrow - though I imagine he doesnt know him!

I feel for you @Wrighty67 - I hate these kinda totally unpredictable games. You loose then dont play them or anyone similar for 3 months - in which time youve fogot what to do! 🙈

 

[vanjr]

First thing-if your opponent's topspin is too much to handle, don't help him by serving underspin-or pushing long!!!
Second-if your opponent is looping your serve that goes off the table, serve dead two bounce serves!!
Third-if your counter of your opponents loop is going off the table, don't counter it! (pong99 gave you a great video-use it-practice it).

I find the discussion of serves on this thread kinda weird-you can see the ball clearly-unless he is spinning the ball with his hand I would never complain about such serves.

 

[NetProphet]

I find the discussion of serves on this thread kinda weird-you can see the ball clearly-unless he is spinning the ball with his hand I would never complain about such serves.

I suppose everyone has their own tolerance for what they will accept from opponents without complaint.
But by the service rules and why they exist his opponent is absolutely doing illegal serves.
Its weirder that you find someone many people pointing this out to be weird 😉

 

[mr_rage]

All this whining about illegal serves is utterly counterproductive - the OP is not losing because of the opponent's serves.

In 2nd division local leagues here in UK whomever can spin the ball first wins most of the time.

Both players in the video serve long with little spin. The opponent pushes OP's serves back and OP pushes back instead of looping, opponent loops first and wins most of the time. Opponent's serves are long and when they are not attacked with a spinny loop (like 1st point), pushing them results in a deep/high ball which the opponent loops, wins most of the time. That's why the opponent's win average is so much higher than the OP's ...

In other words, the opponent has a winning tactic - loop first - and is able to execute it, while the OP does seem to have one or cannot execute his.

The solution is simple and works against the vast majority of 2nd division players. Short underspin serve, they push, you do a slow spinny loop. When they serve long, never push back, always respond with a spinny loop. When they serve short, push back short and wait for a long push which you then loop. Practice that and you will start beating the majority of 2nd div players very easily.

I play with this style all the time. The strategy to play this style is exactly as in the post of vvk1.
In case you want to block this slow spinny topspin effectively, there are 2 important point:

1. The block must be very soon at the beginning of the 1st bounce, to minimize the super heavy topspin in the ball. The super heavy topspin = backspin from your push + heavy topspin from the opponent slow loop below the table.

2. The firmness/stability in your block to help direct the ball back into the table. If you're relax and softly block, the blocked ball is unstable and will fly off the table or go into the net.

 

[NextLevel]

Played this guy last week and will be meeting him again. Very unconventional but very effective - heavy/high topspin on everything long enough (and some nasty backspin fake loops)
I’m normally ok countering but could not get on top of this - how would you deal with it?

Hi Wrighty67,

I don't have a great bedside manner today, so forgive me. Your blocks were really so bad that you can go back to square one and do much better if you just practiced a little bit more against slow heavy topspin with your coach. It's a very simple fix and one that should improve your game significantly and somewhat permanently, have your coach serve you heavy backspin, you push back, he does a slow spinny open up with various heights and depths and you learn how to roll your wrist/forearm over the top of the ball and maybe even step back and do the same thing more aggressively to counterloop for a winner. I have taught the stuff to worse players than yourself in 30 minutes of training, they then start keeping the ball consistently on the table against players who used to go through them and then the players start complaining about coaching and hitting. But in this case, you didn't even cover or block any of the balls reasonably well and that is easy to fix because the amount of preparation that goes into slow heavy topspin usually gives you a lot of time to set up your return options. Faster topspins take more open racket blocks, but slower ones need to be covered a bit. And the covering doesn't have to be off the bounce if it is done with relaxed hands, but the problem is that people want to hit high balls hard, and topspin when heavy kicks off really forward so you have to make the first contact correctly (usually on the side top) if you want to hit the ball hard. But you can do the same very softly and very consistent against many heavy topspin balls. I suspect with this opponent that one block will win the point outright for you.

Good luck,
NL

 

[NextLevel]

I suppose everyone has their own tolerance for what they will accept from opponents without complaint.
But by the service rules and why they exist his opponent is absolutely doing illegal serves.
Its weirder that you find someone many people pointing this out to be weird 😉

The truth is that at the amateur level, just about everyone's serves are somewhat dubious if not illegal, they just don't know it yet. And the reality is that many illegal serves don't really interfere with anyone's enjoyment of the game at the lower levels unless one makes it an issue in which case, it consumes one's mindspace and often drops his level of play.

But I get it, he should fix his serve. The funny thing is that if you put many people on camera, they will be very surprised by how their serve looks.

 

[Wrighty67]

Hi Wrighty67,

I don't have a great bedside manner today, so forgive me. Your blocks were really so bad that you can go back to square one and do much better if you just practiced a little bit more against slow heavy topspin with your coach. It's a very simple fix and one that should improve your game significantly and somewhat permanently, have your coach serve you heavy backspin, you push back, he does a slow spinny open up with various heights and depths and you learn how to roll your wrist/forearm over the top of the ball and maybe even step back and do the same thing more aggressively to counterloop for a winner. I have taught the stuff to worse players than yourself in 30 minutes of training, they then start keeping the ball consistently on the table against players who used to go through them and then the players start complaining about coaching and hitting. But in this case, you didn't even cover or block any of the balls reasonably well and that is easy to fix because the amount of preparation that goes into slow heavy topspin usually gives you a lot of time to set up your return options. Faster topspins take more open racket blocks, but slower ones need to be covered a bit. And the covering doesn't have to be off the bounce if it is done with relaxed hands, but the problem is that people want to hit high balls hard, and topspin when heavy kicks off really forward so you have to make the first contact correctly (usually on the side top) if you want to hit the ball hard. But you can do the same very softly and very consistent against many heavy topspin balls. I suspect with this opponent that one block will win the point outright for you.

Good luck,
NL

Thanks NL - all fair. I am pretty good at blocking lower, faster topspin and not usually this poor against slow/high but was very tight with nerves in this new league for me. I have stepped up a level and finding myself unable to relax - spin on service, return of serve and touch play all sub par. Got plenty of matches which I hope sensitise me,

 

[NextLevel]

Thanks NL - all fair. I am pretty good at blocking lower, faster topspin and not usually this poor against slow/high but was very tight with nerves in this new league for me. I have stepped up a level and finding myself unable to relax - spin on service, return of serve and touch play all sub par. Got plenty of matches which I hope sensitise me,

Table tennis is so mental that you have to continue to find stories that keep you relaxed or at least in the best playing mindset. Why tight when you have stepped up a level? Unless you play your best TT when tight, you need to reframe that better.