Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[NextLevel]

I can relate. I do think that there’s a trade off as I focus on technique and building foundations at the expense of match play and winning. I’m hoping it will pay back over time!

My friend who got me into coaching, he said there was a period he went to China for training as a kid, and came out a wreck. For like six months, he had his worst results in a while. Then all of a sudden, he had his best results. Of course, these were in ancient times.

I get the importance of formal competition and find it invaluable. But perspective is at least as important. Being very specific about what you do to win and lose points can help as well. There is little point developing an all powerful forehand if everyone knows that if they do a backhand serve into your forehand, you will pop it up for an easy kill. Your level may have changed, but it will hardly help in a situation where everyone knows the cheat code to playing you (other than making it inevitable that you have to address the weakness). IT's more fun to work on the killer forehand, but it is far more important to train serviceable return options for that short forehand serve, more so because the weakness will get easier to exploit as you get better.

I think the American weekly club league format, where you get bunched into groups with lots of opponents close to your level, is my favorite competition format for improving my TT. No easy matches unless you are a top of the top group and no one is close to you, you play lots of competition, and you have to stay sharp all through the event. And even if you are playing the same opponents every week, which can happen in some clubs, the variety tends to keep you sharp as people are often trying to figure you out just as you are trying to figure them out. Maintaining an advantage without real improvement is incredibly difficult.

 

[vvk1]

Hi Vadym, great seeing you yesterday.
Reinhard is the fella I played last, and by this time I was just wanting to get home!!! Tbh my attitude was pretty poor, disinterested, angry and moody. Ref should have shown me red!!
All day I had trouble concentrating properly, which is strange because I like the venue and have played well there previously.

You mentioned that you had to adapt your play style because of the number of ‘hitters’ in the group, heavy spin slower openers were being put away by your opponents, this may be of interest to JeffM !!!
Really enjoyed watching your win against the guy that plays a fishing/ lobbing game, just watching you knackered me out!! Great win.

Thanks Ian. I was very fortunate in that match - my opponent played with an injury sustained in the previous match - otherwise who knows how it would have ended. My only other win was against another "conventional" looper so not sure whether my adaptations against hitters were successful enough

IMO, if you're a looper or counter-hitter, then you simply cannot be too passive/tentative when dealing with spinny loops. Otherwise, the spin on the ball takes over and you lose control. I'm with @NextLevel on this one - counterspinning (or counterhitting if that's your main weapon) is the better option in this case.

@JeffM - Some time ago, the bbaerong-e yorong-e TV YT channel (@Der_Echte - many thanks for introducing us to it!) had a video entitled "How to practice increasing your table tennis rating in a short period of time". There are some very nice gems about how to counter opponent's topspins at about 5m55s into the video, along with suggested drills to practice that.

 

[IB66]

@IB66

sorry for your tournament buddy. It hurts to wake up so early and spend a whole day out, just to get beaten so hard.

Actually I'm coping even harder. haven't posted about my tournaments for a while, but its been an absolute disaster. i stopped doing stats because its hurting too much, i must be at only less than 25% wins for the year, and i must have like 10 losses IN A ROW. I'm losing guys that I used to win or that i would have won. I'm losing so much confidence now that it makes things even more difficult especially when things get tight. I'm even throwing away games and have many negative thoughts which was very rarely the case. I used to be a fighter.

The seemingly paradoxical thing is that my teammates and coaches say that i've never played so good but the results say absolutely the contrary as well as the unofficial rating which is at the lowest its ever been (-250 points from ATH before Covid).

tough pill to swallow when i train so much , spend so much on 1-to-1 coaching, and see another teammate about my age, and training as much whose trajectory is going up from roughly the same starting point.

of course my teammates are wrong and/or just trying to help me cope. YES on some ASPECTS of the game maybe i've never been that good, but that just exposes how weak is the rest, notably some of the most essential stuff (receive & 3rd ball). my skills are so unbalanced.

its got to the point where i wonder whether i should quit the sport... But so far i can't quit more than a week...LOL i must be masochistic somehow.

Hey Takkyu,

Stick with it, this game we love is a tough nut to crack!! So simple yet so complicated!!! Both technically, physically and mentally!! FRUSTRATING Big time!!
I’m a big believer in the more you put in the more you will get out.

There has been a few threads where people have talked about how they feel that their results don’t necessarily correspond with improvement, and actually get worse!! (before getting better) patience needed!!
We can be guilty of setting expectations too high
Not take into account how our improvements impact our playing style and game dynamics.
Not take into account what our opponents are / have been doing themselves, to improve and so on.
Not take into account everyone is different, and as adult learners this can mean different timescales for learning.

 

[blahness]

Hi guys,
just curious as to how do you guys deal with crazy top spins.

Context:
in matches and competitions, players often try to spin the ball up so I cannot control the spin and the ball either flies off the back edge of the table or ends up in the net. This happens when I try to serve short but I couldn't as I try to put alot of spin on the serve, and then this leads to them returning a even more spinier loop.

I tried to block but the ball would go out.
I tried to counter loop but I would miss the ball completely as the ball often dips and I hit air only.

I spoke to my doubles partner, and he recommended if the ball is high, to smack it down, aiming just above the net. I haven't tried that yet but I feel that would be quite high risk.
Another friend said I need soft hands, to try imagine moving the wrist to the ball but keeping the hand free. This sounds good but I don't know whether I can actually do that.

What do you guys do if you are in my position?
I find it very hard to get these practice as not much ppl can do it for me. Even when I ask the coach to do it last week, she didn't really do a proper job of it.

Thanks

In Chinese the most common response to a loop is 贴 (holding bat largely still and high, using the body to press down on the ball) or 围 (wrapping the ball around the side). I prefer the 2nd because it allows me to create very nasty sidespin angles - there's the "hook" version and there's the "fade" version. But essentially with all of this you have to have a slightly closed blade angle, start with bat high and most importantly use your body to control the trajectory (most important point!). There's a lot of videos on this on Fang Bo's channel. You can use your fingers as extra levers of control to react to the spin. The thumb (on BH) and index finger (on FH) can press the ball down more if it is spinnier than you expect.

 

[JeffM]

BTW, I once took a lesson with a coach (2600 penholder) and when I served long backspin and she looped it and I blocked it long, she just told me to stop serving so heavy if I wasn't able to deal with it. So maybe the most conservative way to deal with heavy spin is to not allow it at all lol!

Hi NL, thanks for that. Yes, I kept trying to serve short heavy backspin yet each time it just flew out the back edge and that actually made it very easy for him to kill me with the spin lol.
I will have to try to keep the concept of using more 'sponge' rather than 'topsheet' and see how it goes. Issue is also hard for me to find someone to loop like that for me to practice. I can think of my partner in nearby town, but he often loop fast low instead of high arching style (like mine when i'm out of position).
Great video too btw, thanks for the link.

The most conservative and safe way to handle heavy topspin incoming balls is to get the bat close to the bounce with a loose grip (and close the bat the right amount).

Next conservative way is a step plus away from table, very short swing, allow ball to come to strike zone, close bat and loose grip... will not produce a ton of spin, but ball will go back safe.

Next conservative way is to impact ball on side a bit.

Next conservative way is to goof off with long pips.

Hi Der_Echte, thanks for that. I will experiment with each and see which I can do.

Thanks Ian. I was very fortunate in that match - my opponent played with an injury sustained in the previous match - otherwise who knows how it would have ended. My only other win was against another "conventional" looper so not sure whether my adaptations against hitters were successful enough

IMO, if you're a looper or counter-hitter, then you simply cannot be too passive/tentative when dealing with spinny loops. Otherwise, the spin on the ball takes over and you lose control. I'm with @NextLevel on this one - counterspinning (or counterhitting if that's your main weapon) is the better option in this case.

@JeffM - Some time ago, the bbaerong-e yorong-e TV YT channel (@Der_Echte - many thanks for introducing us to it!) had a video entitled "How to practice increasing your table tennis rating in a short period of time". There are some very nice gems about how to counter opponent's topspins at about 5m55s into the video, along with suggested drills to practice that.

Hi Vadym, thanks for that link. Yeah somehow in my mind, counter-hitting just isn't in my mind. I used to have a hitting partner that would counter hit my higher arching heavy loops but I never thought of learning it myself. That video makes it look simple lol. I have to try it out. It did say keep the bat at 90 degrees but in the slow mo it seems like they do close the angle a bit, so that the bat isn't actually 'vertical' as described by them.

 

[JeffM]

In Chinese the most common response to a loop is 贴 (holding bat largely still and high, using the body to press down on the ball) or 围 (wrapping the ball around the side). I prefer the 2nd because it allows me to create very nasty sidespin angles - there's the "hook" version and there's the "fade" version. But essentially with all of this you have to have a slightly closed blade angle, start with bat high and most importantly use your body to control the trajectory (most important point!). There's a lot of videos on this on Fang Bo's channel. You can use your fingers as extra levers of control to react to the spin. The thumb (on BH) and index finger (on FH) can press the ball down more if it is spinnier than you expect.

Ahh right, thanks blahness.
I don't seem to be able to do the first style well, so I might try the second one. But I find even predicting the trajectory of the ball is sometimes hard as they don't often bounce up but sometimes they just dip due to the spin.

 

[NextLevel]

Hi NL, thanks for that. Yes, I kept trying to serve short heavy backspin yet each time it just flew out the back edge and that actually made it very easy for him to kill me with the spin lol.
I will have to try to keep the concept of using more 'sponge' rather than 'topsheet' and see how it goes. Issue is also hard for me to find someone to loop like that for me to practice. I can think of my partner in nearby town, but he often loop fast low instead of high arching style (like mine when i'm out of position).
Great video too btw, thanks for the link.

The loop itself doesn't matter as much as how much backspin you serve long. If the guy can loop it hard, then that is okay, just practice that. If he high arcs it, then practice that. The thing is that the heaviness if your serve is the key thing. If it is heavy enough, it will be hard for him to drive it through the table without adding enough spin for you to deal with it.

 

[JeffM]

Today I met up with old coach for a hit for an hour, as usual. I really appreciate it as he is quite old but he is doing it for me. It is sort of a mutual benefit as he gets some practice from someone who can loop while I get some practice and tips from a coach. This is especially important as I missed out on the weekly club session due to work clash.

He first congratulated my achievement, but he said I have a long way to go, to get as many as he has lol.

We then went on to train. I told him about my trouble with blocking those bloody heavy spinny topspin. He told me that I would have to wrap on top of the ball when I block it. I have always thought the blocking should be a linear motion, but he said the bat has to close over the ball.

He does drills with me, and they often involve me running to forehand from backhand side, like the falkenberg drill. But the thing with it is that there are alot more variable as each ball starts with a serve, a proper serve. So we may not get many shots in the rally, but we are also practicing serve + receive.

We had a good session, and I was full of sweat afterwards. I did some heavy spin loop and I saw him block some of it back. But because I was in motion, I didn't fully see how he did it.

At the end, he showed me his trophy room. And there were so many trophies and medals that filled the whole cupboard! He has achieved so much in his life.

I still see him as a coach, but I feel, in some ways, we treat each other as a friend, and that is more important than anything. We chat about the state of table tennis in our state, how we are disappointed, how we are disappointed with how our local club is going / operating etc, and I enjoy the conversations as he is very knowledgable and has been through it all.

 

[NextLevel]

Today I met up with old coach for a hit for an hour, as usual. I really appreciate it as he is quite old but he is doing it for me. It is sort of a mutual benefit as he gets some practice from someone who can loop while I get some practice and tips from a coach. This is especially important as I missed out on the weekly club session due to work clash.

He first congratulated my achievement, but he said I have a long way to go, to get as many as he has lol.

We then went on to train. I told him about my trouble with blocking those bloody heavy spinny topspin. He told me that I would have to wrap on top of the ball when I block it. I have always thought the blocking should be a linear motion, but he said the bat has to close over the ball.

He does drills with me, and they often involve me running to forehand from backhand side, like the falkenberg drill. But the thing with it is that there are alot more variable as each ball starts with a serve, a proper serve. So we may not get many shots in the rally, but we are also practicing serve + receive.

We had a good session, and I was full of sweat afterwards. I did some heavy spin loop and I saw him block some of it back. But because I was in motion, I didn't fully see how he did it.

At the end, he showed me his trophy room. And there were so many trophies and medals that filled the whole cupboard! He has achieved so much in his life.

I still see him as a coach, but I feel, in some ways, we treat each other as a friend, and that is more important than anything. We chat about the state of table tennis in our state, how we are disappointed, how we are disappointed with how our local club is going / operating etc, and I enjoy the conversations as he is very knowledgable and has been through it all.

The funny thing is that seeing you play some of those advanced loopers in the past, I thought you already knew to press/close over the ball on heavy spin and you were looking for something extra. Blocking should adapt to the spin. More topspin needs to be suppressed by reducing the exit angle. That said, it can be very subtle with the fingers or it can be pushing with the legs that gets expressed in the fingers , so it can be hard to "see it". But over time, you just read it and do it. I like to think of It as following thr shape of the ball with your pronation/supination. But however you do it, you just have to prevent the topspin from kicking upwards and not hit so hard that the ball goes long. Sometimes you need to do it at a height that is early because if the ball gets too high, it is hard to bring it down in time so you need to wait for it to come down again or avoid the spin and touch it softly so you can steer it on the table.

Okay, i know we have spent a lot of time on this. Developing tools to handle heavy topspin worh confidence is a level growth thing, it is the biggest reason many players back off the table.

 

[JeffM]

The funny thing is that seeing you play some of those advanced loopers in the past, I thought you already knew to press/close over the ball on heavy spin and you were looking for something extra. Blocking should adapt to the spin. More topspin needs to be suppressed by reducing the exit angle. That said, it can be very subtle with the fingers or it can be pushing with the legs that gets expressed in the fingers , so it can be hard to "see it". But over time, you just read it and do it. I like to think of It as following thr shape of the ball with your pronation/supination. But however you do it, you just have to prevent the topspin from kicking upwards and not hit so hard that the ball goes long. Sometimes you need to do it at a height that is early because if the ball gets too high, it is hard to bring it down in time so you need to wait for it to come down again or avoid the spin and touch it softly so you can steer it on the table.

Okay, i know we have spent a lot of time on this. Developing tools to handle heavy topspin worh confidence is a level growth thing, it is the biggest reason many players back off the table.

Yeah haha, I know in my recent highlight video in the competition in July, I did show a few points where I was playing against a looper that was putting loads of topspin. I only showcased the points that I didn't straight away block the ball out. I wouldn't say I can't do it completely but I would say my success rate is less than ideal and mastering it would definitely prolong my rallies and improve my ratings.

Even today, I tried to do alot more aggressive returns with my forehand. Even though coach could not do heavy topspins, when he returns a ball with some topspin to my fh, today I tried to counter loop them, and my success rate was very high 80-90% but that will change when I get balls that are actually much more spinny.

But yeah, I will work on my block and also being more confident in attacking ones that I can manage.

 

[blahness]

There appears to be some kind of myth regarding serving sidespin to long pips being a stupid idea. After some experiences of using LPs, I think that's the lazy way out.

You can predict the spin coming back based on the opponent's stroke.

The most stable way of returning serves with the LP is to continue the spin. It is the opposite as inverted where you go against the spin. You would receive a standard FH pendulum serve with a LP stroke going from right to left (instead of touching the right side of the ball which is the standard inverted way). This produces sidespin which curves in the same direction as the serve. So if you served FH pendulum sidespin to an LP player it would most likely come back as a sidespin curving to your left. If you served topspin it'll most likely have an underspin component and vice versa.

If you served FH reverse pendulum or hook it'll likely come back as a sidespin curving towards your right.

If the LP chooses to go against the spin, then most likely it's gonna produce a no spin ball (unless the LP has some grip) which is what they usually don't want because of the lack of control. The more frictionless the LP the less their ability to choose not to continue the spin.

If you understand this you can anticipate the returned sidespin and attack accordingly. Obviously it's not as straightforward as serves without sidespin, but it's not some magical thing.

It's funny coz LP players refuse to give out their secrets haha and just say "dont serve sidespin to us", and here I am learning and exposing them xD.

 

[JeffM]

There appears to be some kind of myth regarding serving sidespin to long pips being a stupid idea. After some experiences of using LPs, I think that's the lazy way out.

You can predict the spin coming back based on the opponent's stroke.

The most stable way of returning serves with the LP is to continue the spin. It is the opposite as inverted where you go against the spin. You would receive a standard FH pendulum serve with a LP stroke going from right to left (instead of touching the right side of the ball which is the standard inverted way). This produces sidespin which curves in the same direction as the serve. So if you served FH pendulum sidespin to an LP player it would most likely come back as a sidespin curving to your left. If you served topspin it'll most likely have an underspin component and vice versa.

If you served FH reverse pendulum or hook it'll likely come back as a sidespin curving towards your right.

If the LP chooses to go against the spin, then most likely it's gonna produce a no spin ball (unless the LP has some grip) which is what they usually don't want because of the lack of control. The more frictionless the LP the less their ability to choose not to continue the spin.

If you understand this you can anticipate the returned sidespin and attack accordingly. Obviously it's not as straightforward as serves without sidespin, but it's not some magical thing.

It's funny coz LP players refuse to give out their secrets haha and just say "dont serve sidespin to us", and here I am learning and exposing them xD.

This is very interesting.
So basically if you serve side spin serve to them, expect their return as though they are serving the exact side spin serve back to you (except reversal of the top/back spin component)?
A video would make it easier to understand.

 

[NextLevel]

This is very interesting.
So basically if you serve side spin serve to them, expect their return as though they are serving the exact side spin serve back to you (except reversal of the top/back spin component)?
A video would make it easier to understand.

The problem with serving sidespin to pips usually isnt just about reading the ball, it is sometimes about the ball coming back either knuckle if the pips player hits the ball or coming back with a sidespin that kicks if they don't and if you don't anticipate the kick, it can cost you points. But if you practice enough, you can serve anything as long as you are willing and patient to learn how to read and respond. Pips don't break the laws of physics, they just violate your expectations if you play exclusively against inverted players, but you can develop tools to handle all these things. Some people for example don't serve heavy backspin to pips (sometimes because thet can'tdo it, sometimes because they can't do it deceptively with no spin), but it is a good way to get free points, the caveat being that if the pips are really slippery and the ball comes back, you need to learn to flick/loop heavy topspin over the table and for some people that is a completely new experience. But once you can countertopspin or smash heavy topspin, it is a good strategy to start the point as one of your serving options.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

Charles III en France: la reine Camilla et Brigitte Macron s'affrontent au ping-pong à Saint-Denis

Le reine et la Première dame se sont adonnées à quelques échanges de ping-pong lors d'une rencontre avec des associations sportives à Saint-Denis.

www.bfmtv.com

 

[blahness]

This is very interesting.
So basically if you serve side spin serve to them, expect their return as though they are serving the exact side spin serve back to you (except reversal of the top/back spin component)?
A video would make it easier to understand.

Yes, especially if it's the more frictionless type. They can however still kill the spin, or even add to the spin continuation depending on the stroke. But this means for eg if you serve FH pendulum sideunderspin, it'll become quite easy to loop it with the BH (just one example), which is actually the reverse of an inverted receive which is easier to loop hard with FH because it's typically the opposite sidespin being produced.

 

[Der_Echte]

There are a gazillion ways to play pips, but everyone already said the important stuff... you have to PROBE and see what that particular LP player can does and the tendencies... then handle it.

It is not like LPs are gunna offensively overpower you... it is a matter of individually learning opponents and using your tactical intelligence with your tools/skills.

This is pretty much the same process playing vs inverted players.

 

[blahness]

This is very interesting.
So basically if you serve side spin serve to them, expect their return as though they are serving the exact side spin serve back to you (except reversal of the top/back spin component)?
A video would make it easier to understand.

This also is important to understand if they are chopblocking your loops as most loops have some sidespin in it which will also be reversed. For eg if you BH loop with natural sidespin, the chopblock will most likely curve to your left too, reverse is true with forehand loops. You need to take these into account when you push too.

 

[blahness]

Tried playing with just my right hand to ensure that I havent forgot how to play lol. Was still roughly equal in games with my penholder training partner lol. Lost a painful 5 game decider after leading 10-6. Just wasn't concentrating for a bit, made a few unforced errors and he was back. After a stint of using long pips, I think I understand the spin variations a lot more now and don't really make a lot of unforced errors against it anymore.

Lost 3-0 against a pretty good coach. Made way too many mistakes against his penholder serves but it is tricky af, the sidetopspin looked exactly like the sideunderspin variant and it was heavy af. Can't play if you're receiving bad and the other player is receiving well. I was surprised how good he received my serves the first time playing - most ppl will eat them like crazy in the first meeting. He had one of the spinniest pushes Ive ever seen. I had to spend so much energy just to loop it and it was really hard after deadlifting heavy the prev day. I managed to get to deuce in the final game after adjusting somewhat but still fell victim to a few unforced errors.

 

[OvrChkn]

Got my first of two fall tournaments tomorrow. Think I have 6-8 guaranteed matches, so I'm definitely going to be sleepy tomorrow night.

 

[NextLevel]

All my house guests are gone so I managed to get out to a club today at a recreation center to play. I didnt realize it before moving to Texas but I chose a relatively poor location to live for TT. While there is one weekly location about 25 minutes away on Sundays, most locations are 40 mins to an hour away which kills a lot of enthusiasm and makes it harder to get in and out of TT without a substantial loss of time.

Got to the club and waited for the main table yo get to my turn. My first opponent was a long pios backhand, D09C forehand player on a classic defensive blade. He had a windshield wiper serve which I had struggled to deal with when I first played him. This was before I had switched to Golden Tango and Cybershape. I won the first two games at deuce and I was really happy with the shots I was making. I was looping the pips ball with confidence and no hesitation. And then I get to 10‐7 in game 3, and then lose 5 straight points. I lost game 4 badly and I go down in game 5 6‐10. I then got the score to 10‐9. And then he serves off the table lol. We are at deuce. I win it 13-11 in the 5th. Great match, truly 50‐50 given the lost leads on both sides. He was like "people usually don't loop the pips ball that hard" and I was like "I am from Philly, we had a lot of pips players". He was like " Haha, most Nigerians hate pips so that makes sense."

I then played another guy who seemed to be off (or maybe I am just getting sharper). We used to joust a bit more but I beat him 3‐0, 3‐1 and 3‐1 today. Part of it was just how well the Cybershape was blocking (yeah, its gotta be the blade lol). I hit some really silly smash blocks and counters.

Played a couple more opponents and started playing Ice Cube "It was a Good Day" in my head. There is work to do but if I can grow from here good things will happen.

Texas Wesleyan got a new high level Swedish player so I might try to take lessons from him depending on availability. We will see... i really want to get some high level input into how i should structure my game so it is simplified and optimized.