Do counter and drive hits have spin?

[Dominikk85]

What kind of spin does a counter or drive hit have? Are they like a knuckle ball, depending on the incoming spin or still a little bit of topspin always?

I'm not good at reading spin yet and while I can see it on a clear top or underspin I can't really see it on flat hits.

 

[Archosaurus]

If it's hit 100% perfectly on the back of the ball, it "shouldn't" have spin. I'm not sure how much the aero from the ball dropping can influence the spin, so technically a no-spin ball might turn into a very light spin ball. That is just theoretical BS though so just ignore it.

Think about it like this: Are counterhits and drives a movement that goes 100% perfectly through the CoG of the ball? If not, there is some spin. In my experience there is A LITTLE bit of topspin. Inverted rubber will turn that spin back into topspin.

Beware that some recreational players smash with backspin.

 

[Dominikk85]

Thx. Im talking about this hit

Can you hit that with no spin?

Btw do pros even use that anymore? They always seem to do that in warm up but rarely in matches. Why is it even practiced and not just played topspin right away?

 

[suds79]

Counter drive is very important IMO. Got to have the shot.

It's just a normal topspin ball. Heavy topspin as much as a loop? Of course not. But when it's coming at you, you shouldn't worry about what spin it has on it. If they're doing what Jeff is doing in the video, it's standard topspin. Either counter the ball right back or loop it. Whichever you prefer.

Everybody has different styles to their game. My partner, who can be characterized as a bit of a over swinger, tries to loop everything and thus, his loop is better than mine from practice. But he will be the first to tell you his counter-drive isn't good because he never uses it. So he struggles in quick exchanges when you need to use this shot from time to time because you don't have enough time to do a full on loop.

I used to play short pips but now play dual inverted. I used the counter-drive all the time to play easy controlled directional shots. When I'm right up at the table and I get a topspin ball to me and I need placement (being a lefty I play angles a lot), I use this stroke to easily direct the ball either cross course or inside-out forehand. If I'm off the table in a rally, then I use the loop more there.

 

[Xylit]

I know a lot of trainers owning the highest licence available in Germany that start their lessons with topspin right away instead of this counterhit. You are right that you don't need that very often in matchplay as soon as you have reached a certain level.
It adds a little bit of topspin to the ball but that is nothing too relevant or something you should "read".

 

[Dominikk85]

@suds I don't think that in the video is a topspin ball, right? The racket starts above the table and not pointing down in the takeback like in a normal topspin.

 

[Ilia Minkin]

Thx. Im talking about this hit

Can you hit that with no spin?

If you do the shot with short pimples, there will be much less spin, almost no-spin depending on the pips. But with inverted there will be always topspin, even if you just block on the table.

 

[suds79]

@suds I don't think that in the video is a topspin ball, right? The racket starts above the table and not pointing down in the takeback like in a normal topspin.

Trust me you're over thinking this one with "is it no spin? Topspin?" etc. Some shots in TT are harder to hit than others. This is one of the most basic easy strokes in TT.

Trust me it's topspin. Just look at his blade face. It's slightly closed. If it was no-spin, that ball would go into the net.

Rewatch 3:15 - 3:45. Surely you must see these are topspin balls they are hitting back & forth to each other. The blade face, the swing, the way the ball curves, etc.

 

[Archosaurus]

Easy answer to this question: Find someone who can counterhit and just block it!

It's really not worth going into all the technical stuff and even reading the spin IMO. I think any proper spin shot will hugely overpower the spin that is on this kind of stroke. So just hit the ball.

I used to think too much about things like this, but it doesn't help anyone. Just hit the ball and see for yourself.

 

[Der_Echte]

A skilled player with inverted can make the FH counter drive shot have anything from zero spin to medium spin, usually fast pace.

A skilled player with short pips can make the counter have anything from light backspin to light/medium topspin.

A skilled player with Medium Pips can make the shot with anything from light/medium underspin to light topspin with good pace. Ditto with an LP attacker.

The rubber, blade, and hand play a part as well as where and how the ball is impacted.

When the return from one of the skilled pips players is fast, deep, well placed the opponent has little time to remember their spin and what the pips player did. The pips players who can play close to the table can really wreck havoc until a better player can figure out stuff.

 

[Dominikk85]

Does the hitter control the spin (how?) or is it depending on the incoming spin?

So basically I don't have to worry about a light spin and can just hit it unless it is a heavy spin?

 

[Shifu]

it depends on how you hit the ball. if you hit it tangentially like in the video, it will have some topspin. if you hit it really flat, it will barely have any spin, a tiny bit of topspin maybe.

look what ZJK and ML are doing at the very beginning, there is barely any spin on the ball.

 

[Xylit]

IF you are talking about the hits ML and ZJK are doing in the above video at the beginning (German "Konter") this whole discussion is strange?! It is the most basic stroke in table tennis, you do that to warm-up, you do that to play a ball safely but you definitely DO NOT DO IT to put any kind of spin to the ball deliberately or do some spin variations. It is just like playing the ball over the net, nothing more. Please don't make things more complicated than they are. If you are a good player you won't hit the ball like that very often in a match. Always go topspin.

 

[yogi_bear]

If you drive and hit thru the sponve it has little or no spin. If you brush it a little bit then it has definitely some spin.

 

[Suga D]

If you are a good player you won't hit the ball like that very often in a match. Always go topspin.

I'm not sure if I would fully agree to this.

I would rather say it strongly depends on the playing style. Players that stay close to the table might find this quite useful.
Even on higher levels you can find pips hitters, blockers and counter players, so i don't wouldn't underestimate the importance of practicing this technique in general.
If you practice this at really high speed it is not so much about conciously thinking about placement or spin, but rather building up automatisms when receiving slow spinny balls and putting them away in terms of blocking actively...

I mean, just look how many times this girl puts away spinny loops that are too slow or/and too high...

Please don't make things more complicated than they are.

I would fully agree to this though.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

One of the reasons you actually want to do that shot and do it well enough is that, ultimately it is very similar to how you block when you know what you are doing.

Blocking can be a very useful tactic against a strong looper.

If you do it well it can help you learn to do a counterloop with a tiny stroke which can also help your confidence counterlooping with a full stroke.

So it is ultimately a valuable skill to learn. Some players use the skill less than others. But it is a skill that helps you build a few other skills.


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[UpSideDownCarl]

it depends on how you hit the ball. if you hit it tangentially like in the video, it will have some topspin. if you hit it really flat, it will barely have any spin, a tiny bit of topspin maybe.

look what ZJK and ML are doing at the very beginning, there is barely any spin on the ball.

If you watch closely in that warmup part, after they are counterhitting they take turns looping. When either is looping, watch the blocking technique of the other. Notice, it is almost exactly like the counterhitting but it is a slightly smaller stroke.

One can think it is not an important skill, but it is funny how well all the best players can do this skill, particularly if it is not really important.

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[Baal]

Do counter and drive hits have spin? Only if you want them to land on the table.

(In the video the OP posted from TT Edge just look at the racket angle at ball contact and the direction the blade is moving relative to the ball. It may not produce a lot of spin but some and it pulls the ball down and keeps it on the table. Remember that inverted rubbers grip the ball tightly so even a slight movement from that racket angle will put a little topspin on the ball).