Guess the Rating

[UpSideDownCarl]

This is Edmund Suen vs David Song in the U2050 of FIT from November 2014. These guys are actually the same level as NextLevel and 2 levels lower then Richard Dewitt and Philippe Dassonval.

 

[NDH]

Here is Adam, who obviously has trouble with Richard's unconventional style playing a more traditional player where you can see his level a little better.

Hi Carl,

What "trials" was this match for?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Hi Carl,

What "trials" was this match for?

I believe that was trials for US team. The team that would then try out for the olympics. But I could be wrong. I chose that because it is not too far from the date of the match when Adam struggled vs Richard Dewitt.

Table tennis is a very complex and technical game. It is really hard to judge how good someone is from videos because of what different styles and different rubber surfaces can do to the game.

 

[NDH]

I believe that was trials for US team. The team that would then try out for the olympics. But I could be wrong. I chose that because it is not too far from the date of the match when Adam struggled vs Richard Dewitt.

Table tennis is a very complex and technical game. It is really hard to judge how good someone is from videos because of what different styles and different rubber surfaces can do to the game.

No doubt! I would hate to pass my opinion on someone's overall game (especially give them a "rating") unless they really wanted me to.

I look at a lot of guys in videos and think "Yeah, I'd beat them!" - But the reality could be very different!

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

No doubt! I would hate to pass my opinion on someone's overall game (especially give them a "rating") unless they really wanted me to.

I look at a lot of guys in videos and think "Yeah, I'd beat them!" - But the reality could be very different!

Exactly. And I think that is part of what makes this such a good idea for a thread. Kudos to NextLevel for showing footage that makes him look worse than he is. Very few people would want to do that to see if people can tell the level despite circumstances that make it hard to judge.

 

[NDH]

Exactly. And I think that is part of what makes this such a good idea for a thread. Kudos to NextLevel for showing footage that makes him look worse than he is. Very few people would want to do that to see if people can tell the level despite circumstances that make it hard to judge.

To be fair, I think it should be mandatory for people to post ANY video of themselves playing TT - Good or bad!

 

[NextLevel]

To be fair, I think it should be mandatory for people to post ANY video of themselves playing TT - Good or bad!

Sounds like what I say all the time - people who post video of themselves playing tend to be far more careful and kind when evaluating the play of others.

 

[NDH]

Sounds like what I say all the time - people who post video of themselves playing tend to be far more careful and kind when evaluating the play of others.

People should always be careful (and kind!) when giving constructive critiscm on other people's videos.

I think this gets a bit lost when the language barrier comes into it (non english speaking people can come across very blunt and to the point, when in fact, it's all they know and they are just trying to advise).

But you also get a fair few people who come across as if they have won a few Olympic medals, without actually having the basis for this "Pro Advice" they give.

I don't think any advice should be ignored completely - Good players will know what advice to take on board, and what to ignore.

Thankfully, this forum seems pretty full of decent guys with good ideas - And on the whole, sound advice.

You've seen 2 drills from me NL - All be it, 2 very short and not very enlightening drills....

How do you think you would fare if we played a match?

 

[NextLevel]

I respect nextlevel for playing even though he has some disabilities, congratz in getting 2000 rating
(idk if thats good, would be nice if you can show me some other videos at that level)
Well these people are not even close to my most of my friends in the club usually 12-15 years old.
The club has some exceptional coaches, one of the was the australia closed champ

A former Australian national champion and coach without knowing my rating called me an above average club player two years ago based on the serve videos I sent him despite not having ideal form. He might have seen my match videos online but those where almost a year old at the time if not more. Whose word should I take, his or yours?

 

[NextLevel]

People should always be careful (and kind!) when giving constructive critiscm on other people's videos.

I think this gets a bit lost when the language barrier comes into it (non english speaking people can come across very blunt and to the point, when in fact, it's all they know and they are just trying to advise).

But you also get a fair few people who come across as if they have won a few Olympic medals, without actually having the basis for this "Pro Advice" they give.

I don't think any advice should be ignored completely - Good players will know what advice to take on board, and what to ignore.

Thankfully, this forum seems pretty full of decent guys with good ideas - And on the whole, sound advice.

You've seen 2 drills from me NL - All be it, 2 very short and not very enlightening drills....

How do you think you would fare if we played a match?

Honestly, it largely comes down to serve and serve return. And those things are not in the videos. As an adult learner, I have issues reading spin, but some people don't serve well enough to take advantage. If they do, then my level drops significantly. I have also worked pretty hard on my serve game and hopefully in a month or two on my return game, and if someone struggles with my serves, and is forced to return them passively, they will have a long day, no matter their level.

 

[NDH]

Honestly, it largely comes down to serve and serve return. And those things are not in the videos. As an adult learner, I have issues reading spin, but some people don't serve well enough to take advantage. If they do, then my level drops significantly. I have also worked pretty hard on my serve game and hopefully in a month or two on my return game, and if someone struggles with my serves, and is forced to return them passively, they will have a long day, no matter their level.

It's a good point about serve/return.

It's like watching Ma Long vs ZJK, and if ZJK puts what looks like a relatively easy serve in the net, saying "PAH! Look at that ZJK.... I could beat him!"

I'm doing some training tonight with my partner - I'll try and get some practice match video and upload it later!

 

[yuri.saldon]

I think the fact of NL don't play way to beautiful makes us misjudging him.
In my club, for example, we have some national level guys who have smooth strokes and nice footwork. Maybe that poisoned the capacity to judge others level.
It's like someone watching ittf top 10 playing and compare to top 200
Top 200 play very well, at least they are the 200 best players in the world, but nothing like the top 10 especially ml, zjk, fz, xx

Sent from my 2014819 using Tapatalk

 

[pgpg]

...
Their USATT ratings change a lot because they are what is known as sandbaggers. They lose to lower rated players on purpose to keep their ratings lower than they should be so they can enter events that are lower than they should be able to enter to win the money.
...

I've heard this mentioned several times, especially for Philippe - but do you have actual data to back it up? I went to their rating/match history and could not really see wild rating fluctuations or obvious examples of match throwing, at least in the last 6 months or so (and Richard seems to play in every tournament he can).

They do sometimes lose to lower-rated players, but don't we all? Rapidly increasing junior, bad style matchup etc. can do it for you.

 

[NextLevel]

I think the fact of NL don't play way to beautiful makes us misjudging him.
In my club, for example, we have some national level guys who have smooth strokes and nice footwork. Maybe that poisoned the capacity to judge others level.
It's like someone watching ittf top 10 playing and compare to top 200
Top 200 play very well, at least they are the 200 best players in the world, but nothing like the top 10 especially ml, zjk, fz, xx

Sent from my 2014819 using Tapatalk

Not too many people who started playing seriously after the age of 30 have beautiful games. There are a few, but they are the exceptions, not the rule. Many people who judge others start as kids, so they get taught the right stuff from start and don't know what it is like to learn seriously after having done all the wrong stuff for a while.

The game is an extremely cognitive game as well but people don't see cognition - all they see are strokes.

 

[NextLevel]

I've heard this mentioned several times, especially for Philippe - but do you have actual data to back it up? I went to their rating/match history and could not really see wild rating fluctuations or obvious examples of match throwing, at least in the last 6 months or so (and Richard seems to play in every tournament he can).

They do sometimes lose to lower-rated players, but don't we all? Rapidly increasing junior, bad style matchup etc. can do it for you.

While I don't want to get into the details, what you also need to look at is the frequency with which these guys enter events that are higher than their actual rating. Because they don't play players that they can upset fairly often, they tend to stay in events where they can manage their ratings better. Talk to them - they will admit it. And I can share some things you may not know about them in person. Like how one of them likes to call every tournament he didn't attend after it was over to find out who played in it and who won.

 

[pgpg]

While I don't want to get into the details, what you also need to look at is the frequency with which these guys enter events that are higher than their actual rating. Because they don't play players that they can upset fairly often, they tend to stay in events where they can manage their ratings better. Talk to them - they will admit it. And I can share some things you may not know about them in person. Like how one of them likes to call every tournament he didn't attend after it was over to find out who played in it and who won.

I see - but that's a bit different from losing a match on purpose. Almost like finding your comfort zone and staying there (losing all the time to higher rated players is not that pleasant and requires rather thick skin). In a way they are constantly forced to defend their rating by playing only their events - pretty much every match is a potential upset if you are highest rated person in the draw.

Contrast it with someone who only enters events way above his rating, like 3 levels above - his rating history is flat as it can be, and win/loss is always 0:6. But precious rating is safe

In the end we are all playing for our own reasons - and Rich comes across as a very nice guy too.

 

[NextLevel]

I see - but that's a bit different from losing a match on purpose. Almost like finding your comfort zone and staying there (losing all the time to higher rated players is not that pleasant and requires rather thick skin). In a way they are constantly forced to defend their rating by playing only their events - pretty much every match is a potential upset if you are highest rated person in the draw.

Contrast it with someone who only enters events way above his rating, like 3 levels above - his rating history is flat as it can be, and win/loss is always 0:6. But precious rating is safe

In the end we are all playing for our own reasons - and Rich comes across as a very nice guy too.

When your rating is really higher than it should be and is artificially depressed by playing only in events that you are better than, then all is well, isn't it? That said, they both freely admit that they are not in the mood to compete with the better players and their peers consistently and play for cash. You can ask them.

It's not as different as you think it is, though one of them more explicitly sandbags than the other - the other just manages his rating more carefully.

 

[pgpg]

When your rating is really higher than it should be and is artificially depressed by playing only in events that you are better than, then all is well, isn't it? That said, they both freely admit that they are not in the mood to compete with the better players and their peers consistently and play for cash. You can ask them.

It's not as different as you think it is, though one of them more explicitly sandbags than the other - the other just manages his rating more carefully.

I did have similar thought as I was typing my previous post, so I think we agree here. Given that Rich did quite well against ~2450 guy at RI tournament (video was linked recently), his true level is likely higher.

 

[yuri.saldon]

Not too many people who started playing seriously after the age of 30 have beautiful games. There are a few, but they are the exceptions, not the rule. Many people who judge others start as kids, so they get taught the right stuff from start and don't know what it is like to learn seriously after having done all the wrong stuff for a while.

The game is an extremely cognitive game as well but people don't see cognition - all they see are strokes.

I completely agree with you.
I know a lot a good players, not so young, with "different" type of strokes.
But in video the image is everything so we MISJUDGE the players level

Sent from my 2014819 using Tapatalk

 

[Shuki]

Honestly, it largely comes down to serve and serve return. And those things are not in the videos. As an adult learner, I have issues reading spin, but some people don't serve well enough to take advantage. If they do, then my level drops significantly. I have also worked pretty hard on my serve game and hopefully in a month or two on my return game, and if someone struggles with my serves, and is forced to return them passively, they will have a long day, no matter their level.

When I was at Seemiller's training camp, we went over service, and service return. He said that best way of learning to return serves better is to simply have better serves yourself. Part of it was because "as they give you good returns, you'll understand better what works against better serves"

He also said he's NEVER, not even once met a player who could serve really well with a lot of spin, but not have service return of an almost equal level. I'm sure there are more reason's on why if you can serve well you'd be able to return well too, but he didn't elaborate too much on why that is.

So I believe since you're working on your service game, the service return will simply come along with it.