how to do a push that creates sidetopspin

[Gtsnake]

I can see this technique working with light underspin. If it's heavy underspin you will dump it into the net since the push won't be high or strong enough to lift the underspin.

 

[brokenball]

To get top spin you need to hit over the center of the ball. Assuming the ball has no incoming spin. It is possible to do this even when hitting at the 4 o'clock point but a upwards motion is required. Is that really a push?
However, I am pretty sure I push with resulting top spin not because I added the topspin but because the ball came to me with a lot of back spin. Just holding my paddle right, the ball's back spin will make the ball go back over the net with topspin because in this case I did nothing to change the rotation of the ball. Some of the back spin energy does get converted to translational energy.
There is no magic. You can't break the laws of physics.

 

[blahness]

Fact is, such shot is possible
debating on how much spin or effects etc, doesn't not override the fact that it is possible.
I like to do it with RPB "push" and end up with a lift. People will pop the ball up for me to kill
For the ones that read it, they will drive me flat

Youre probably the only one who understands a lot of my threads.

I find it a waste of time posting here tbh, no one ever contributes any valuable technical discussions except for me and very few others tbh, and those who know stuff also never share. The stupid thing is that the quality posts like the recent batsuju step only got 2 replies lmao, and then ppl get discouraged obviously.

And then there's dumb threads which are so easy to generate some controversy, and everyone is going there to give their 2 cents, with many of them obvious quite low level too given that they make comments that betray their lack of understanding of the game. Lol this is becoming such an idiocracy, i think I'm gonna stop posting here for a while...

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Youre probably the only one who understands a lot of my threads.

I find it a waste of time posting here tbh, no one ever contributes any valuable technical discussions except for me and very few others tbh, and those who know stuff also never share. The stupid thing is that the quality posts like the recent batsuju step only got 2 replies lmao, and then ppl get discouraged obviously.

And then there's dumb threads which are so easy to generate some controversy, and everyone is going there to give their 2 cents, with many of them obvious quite low level too given that they make comments that betray their lack of understanding of the game. Lol this is becoming such an idiocracy, i think I'm gonna stop posting here for a while...

there are plenty of experts here already
I don't give much advise and leave it to the experts, as too many cooks does what? lol

 

[Johnniedarko]

Well Blahness, I'm sure there are a lot more people who find your threads helpful, considering 80% of readers here aren't even registered. I certainly do. You describe ways of generating or mitigating spin not only by the contact point or direction of stroke, but both.

It's due in large part to your threads that last week I was able to read and return a lot of the best serves from a ~1500 rated player in my club, to the point where he couldn't believe it.
I've only played 20hrs of TT since joining the club, and maybe double that before in my life. But something about the way you write things just click and make me understand it.

In this case it seems like a regular push (giving backspin at first), but then the motion of lifting the whole bat up, tilting it backwards (so tip up) and stopping the forward motion let the ball "roll" off the bat giving it the topspin. Maybe it's more of a up whipping motion. I think it's a bit too advanced for me technically but I'm gonna give it a try.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Maybe it's more of a up whipping motion. I think it's a bit too advanced for me technically but I'm gonna give it a try.

For my years on English forums, I have few conclusions
1) there are limited English words to describe table tennis
2) There are some English users that are too narrow minded and "locked" on how each word is defined or could be defined

For example, top spin and under spin, to me is is just to reference how the ball spins.
But there are users that want to define that top spin or under spin shots can only be generated by x or y or z.

Few years ago, I was here talking about how Chinese coaches about 12 years ago (2011/2) was already talking about generating underspin balls from a backhand flick shot.
and wow, the amounts of experts to state it is incorrect was overwhelming.

Obviously physics has its space in the world and i'm not denying that and I'm sure Ma Long got to his GOAT today with his high scores in physics class.

 

[dingyibvs]

For my years on English forums, I have few conclusions
1) there are limited English words to describe table tennis
2) There are some English users that are too narrow minded and "locked" on how each word is defined or could be defined

For example, top spin and under spin, to me is is just to reference how the ball spins.
But there are users that want to define that top spin or under spin shots can only be generated by x or y or z.

Few years ago, I was here talking about how Chinese coaches about 12 years ago (2011/2) was already talking about generating underspin balls from a backhand flick shot.
and wow, the amounts of experts to state it is incorrect was overwhelming.

Obviously physics has its space in the world and i'm not denying that and I'm sure Ma Long got to his GOAT today with his high scores in physics class.

This type of attitude is exactly why many who learned TT as little kids and became top notch players cannot teach adult learners worth a lick. Kids and adults learn differently. Adult minds are full of extra knowledge that form a web of perception through which all new information is filtered. Kids can learn a new language just be being around other people who speak it, adults need memorize vocabulary, learn grammatical rules, and intentionally practice it. This is the same principle. What worked for a 10 year old Ma Long won't work for 30, 50 year olds who're just learning TT.

Take this shot or the underspin flick for example. Adults would be interested in knowing how a topspin can come from this, or how an underspin can come from a flick. They'd perhaps want to visualize the interaction between the rubber and the ball, with the resulting spin. A kid would just mimic the movement, and be happy with getting the desired result. Same for teaching a loop. A kid would just mimic the movement and with enough repetition they'd get the result. An adult would need to be taught how to kick with the leg, rotate the waist, flex the elbow, maintain the racket angle, and when to time each action.

 

[blahness]

For my years on English forums, I have few conclusions
1) there are limited English words to describe table tennis
2) There are some English users that are too narrow minded and "locked" on how each word is defined or could be defined

For example, top spin and under spin, to me is is just to reference how the ball spins.
But there are users that want to define that top spin or under spin shots can only be generated by x or y or z.

Few years ago, I was here talking about how Chinese coaches about 12 years ago (2011/2) was already talking about generating underspin balls from a backhand flick shot.
and wow, the amounts of experts to state it is incorrect was overwhelming.

Obviously physics has its space in the world and i'm not denying that and I'm sure Ma Long got to his GOAT today with his high scores in physics class.

It's not just that but not only are they narrow minded but some are also downright aggressive about it (those users are mostly around 2000 level and hang their manlihood on that level). It's a bit of fun sometimes to poke the bears to watch but tbh the utility of this forum is getting increasingly lower for me in terms of learning, and sharing all the time is getting old and boring. I pretty much stopped posting on mytabletennis (just lurk there) and true enough, it no longer had any valuable technical discussion if any.

There's much richer technical discussions on Douyin for eg... which is my main source of TT learning. No hope trying to learn anything from English language forums - basically over here it's like the TT dark ages.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

This type of attitude is exactly why many who learned TT as little kids and became top notch players cannot teach adult learners worth a lick. Kids and adults learn differently. Adult minds are full of extra knowledge that form a web of perception through which all new information is filtered. Kids can learn a new language just be being around other people who speak it, adults need memorize vocabulary, learn grammatical rules, and intentionally practice it. This is the same principle. What worked for a 10 year old Ma Long won't work for 30, 50 year olds who're just learning TT.

Take this shot or the underspin flick for example. Adults would be interested in knowing how a topspin can come from this, or how an underspin can come from a flick. They'd perhaps want to visualize the interaction between the rubber and the ball, with the resulting spin. A kid would just mimic the movement, and be happy with getting the desired result. Same for teaching a loop. A kid would just mimic the movement and with enough repetition they'd get the result. An adult would need to be taught how to kick with the leg, rotate the waist, flex the elbow, maintain the racket angle, and when to time each action.

underspin from bh flick was taught to teenagers and 20 years olds as a "new technique" 12 years ago. They didn't just start from kids.
there have been lots of new technique taught to non kids

however, there are ways to teach to proper TT players and then you have that of TT amateurs
TT players won't judge the coach like how amateurs (who knows it all) would

 

[dingyibvs]

underspin from bh flick was taught to teenagers and 20 years olds as a "new technique" 12 years ago. They didn't just start from kids.
there have been lots of new technique taught to non kids

however, there are ways to teach to proper TT players and then you have that of TT amateurs
TT players won't judge the coach like how amateurs (who knows it all) would

But you understand there are many, many very bad coaches out there. If one doesn't have some skepticism how can we pick? I tried out coaching for the first time when I started playing again over a year ago. I did 3 one hour sessions, paying $75 per session. The only teaching he gave me was for the FH loop, and the way he taught it was "just hit it like this". That might have worked for a kid, and he's a well recognized coach who's taught a lot of kids successfully, but it sure as hell didn't work for me.

 

[latej]

It's not just that but not only are they narrow minded but some are also downright aggressive about it (those users are mostly around 2000 level and hang their manlihood on that level). It's a bit of fun sometimes to poke the bears to watch but tbh the utility of this forum is getting increasingly lower for me in terms of learning, and sharing all the time is getting old and boring. I pretty much stopped posting on mytabletennis (just lurk there) and true enough, it no longer had any valuable technical discussion if any.

Hmm, if you post something, what is just only slightly open for interpretation, there will always be people, who will try to look at it from the perspective in which you might be right, and those, who will search for the ways in which you might be wrong... I'd expect this is not surprising for you... Imho, in that thread, you didn't need to insist so much that you're right, it doesn't matter... And then you yourself reacted a bit too aggressively... So, calm down, your posts are valuable, there is also not that many people posting, we can say the "stable" core of people who make similar nr of posts like you, is really not that big!

 

[Metaxa]

 

[Johnniedarko]

But you understand there are many, many very bad coaches out there. If one doesn't have some skepticism how can we pick? I tried out coaching for the first time when I started playing again over a year ago. I did 3 one hour sessions, paying $75 per session. The only teaching he gave me was for the FH loop, and the way he taught it was "just hit it like this". That might have worked for a kid, and he's a well recognized coach who's taught a lot of kids successfully, but it sure as hell didn't work for me.

You must be living near me, because I know this teacher. But in seriousness, you should ask someone you trust for a recommendation, or just go and see. But it has no sense to be sceptic towards someone while they are teaching you, because the scepticism itself will make you less open to new information, and it undermines the confidence of the teacher who will then spend more time on removing your scepticism rather than the teaching process.

Adult minds are full of extra knowledge that form a web of perception through which all new information is filtered.

The extra knowledge should help the adult to learn faster, not slower.

You see this sometimes in people that are stuck at a low level (at anything, not just TT). Then something finally clicks, and then suddenly their learning is accelerated, and they impove faster and faster every day.

Unlike kids, adults have experienced a life with pain, failure and discomfort. After a while, adults will take safety measures to reduce the negative feelings.
However, learning something new is inherently an uncomfortable experience:
You need to accept to be wrong (lower feeling of status),
You need to accept that your steady game will get worse before it gets better (lower feeling of achievement),
You need to accept that friendships can become strained (if all your buddies are at a certain level, becoming better can be seen as betrayal).

Furthermore adults don't learn new things that often, so they forgot about the nice rewarding feeling that makes this discomfort worth it.

As a consequence, adults try to exercise massive amounts of control over their body when learning something new. They are not trusting their default brain network (the lizard brain) to do the learning for them anymore, instead they cramp and limit this lizard brain, by overusing their thinking brain. Even though it was this lizard brain that taught itself how to walk and how to drink without spilling the water over your shirt.
People who want to reduce discomfort, need to feel more in control will use their thinking brain to do this. But the problem is this is simply not how human bodies learn.

As a result, even when certain adults try to learn a new technique, they do it against the way human bodies learn, trying to think their way into growth, instead of allowing them to feel themselves growing. In the end, the training has no result, and they get even more confidence in saying that the teacher was wrong. Btw, I am not saying you could've learned more from your specific teacher, I am using teacher in the general sense, such as someone explaining a concept. A good teacher still makes all the difference in instilling confidence and getting you into the open mindset. And importantly, seeing where you go wrong and have specific coaching to address that. Repeating the same tips over and over isn't going to work for anyone But having the initial mindset of being curious, and fully open to be wrong, is also essential.

Kids on the other hand are wrong all the time, they don't care because it's their default. Kids are always wrong and everyone knows it. They also learn so often that they are in that motivating learning cycle. They accept being wrong as part of life. Being wrong is also a much better way to learn than instantly doing the right thing immediately. Being wrong gives full understanding, being right only gives a template to follow.

Sometimes I see parent who push their kids to be high achievers. Even at age 3, they need to 'play' the right way, for example use toys the way the manufacturer intended, and not the way the kid want. These kids develop early anxiety and are more afraid to try new things, and therefore learn slower.

So it's really not an adult vs. kid thing. It's an open to failure vs holding on to what you know thing.

AI and dogs are inspiring in this case. Just feed them electricity and snacks, and they will continue to learn as well as they can.

 

[blahness]

Hmm, if you post something, what is just only slightly open for interpretation, there will always be people, who will try to look at it from the perspective in which you might be right, and those, who will search for the ways in which you might be wrong... I'd expect this is not surprising for you... Imho, in that thread, you didn't need to insist so much that you're right, it doesn't matter... And then you yourself reacted a bit too aggressively... So, calm down, your posts are valuable, there is also not that many people posting, we can say the "stable" core of people who make similar nr of posts like you, is really not that big!

Tbh there are some threads I'm just poking and having a bit of fun to drive a bit of engagement...

Although I'm posting a lot, I feel like I'm not exactly learning all that much from the forum anymore... those very high lvl players here who know a shit ton of technical knowledge are not sharing at all (it's quite obvious), and a lot of technique related threads (biggest example was the Batsuju step explanation by turbozed) get abysmal traction anyway even when there's gold in it.

 

[NDH]

I don't speak the language, so not sure who the video is aimed at (beginners etc)?

To say this example is exaggerated would be a huge understatement (which doesn't dispel that what he's doing is possible, but it certainly wouldn't work this way to anyone who can read spin).

Example 1:

Side/backspin serve, light tough push receive followed by a sharp backspin push.

The receiver then just wallops the ball into the table 😂

He's not tried to topspin it, or push it - He's simply flat hit it into the net (to show the example)

Example 2:

Heavy top spin serve, same light touch push receive (you'll see the ball goes MUCH higher on the receive), followed by a sidespin push (any top spin from this push is a remnant of the serve and ever so slight angle of the push).

The receive then tries to push it off a cliff...... I mean.... It would be a really poor push in any circumstance, but he's pushed it like it has extreme chop (again, to exaggerate the video).

If the receiver does the shot he does in example 1 (flat hit), he is winning the point (or at least, getting on the front foot) - The "top spin" would be *incredibly* minor/mild.

Edit to add..... I think the shot variation is a really good weapon at times, and can be used very effectively at any level (although it's definitely a higher level ability shot).

But this particular video just seems *too* exaggerated and it didn't need to be.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Edit to add..... I think the shot variation is a really good weapon at times, and can be used very effectively at any level (although it's definitely a higher level ability shot).

But this particular video just seems *too* exaggerated and it didn't need to be.

I agree with you
as we can all see, that the discussion is going to be on the video exaggerating and not on how to do the shot variations.
so energy spent in the wrong place it seems. any ways, I have enough of typing on BH flick into an underspin ball, or pushing into a topspin ball.

 

[dingyibvs]

I agree with you
as we can all see, that the discussion is going to be on the video exaggerating and not on how to do the shot variations.
so energy spent in the wrong place it seems. any ways, I have enough of typing on BH flick into an underspin ball, or pushing into a topspin ball.

I agree with you on this as well. The important thing is that this shot produces the desired effect of a pop up. The second thing though I have a question, and perhaps you cna help us. Is it more of a brushing upward stroke or more of a lifting stroke? The guy demonstrating it seems to be using different techniques, so it's hard for me to tell. Or perhaps this isn't one single technique but a few different strokes, so long as they're not producing heavy backspin.

 

[Jslick89]

For my years on English forums, I have few conclusions
1) there are limited English words to describe table tennis
2) There are some English users that are too narrow minded and "locked" on how each word is defined or could be defined

For example, top spin and under spin, to me is is just to reference how the ball spins.
But there are users that want to define that top spin or under spin shots can only be generated by x or y or z.

Few years ago, I was here talking about how Chinese coaches about 12 years ago (2011/2) was already talking about generating underspin balls from a backhand flick shot.
and wow, the amounts of experts to state it is incorrect was overwhelming.

Obviously physics has its space in the world and i'm not denying that and I'm sure Ma Long got to his GOAT today with his high scores in physics class.

considering i'm still fairly new to this sport.....this is what i understand:

topspin (I've also heard this called upspin)....is when the the ball is spinning in such a way that the TOP of the ball is rotating towards the player receiving the ball.

underspin/downspin is the opposite. The ball is spinning such a way that the BOTTOM of the ball is rotating towards the player receiving the ball.

left spin..the kind of spin that is typically produced from a right handed player doing a normal pendulum serve. if there was a large black mark on the ball...and you were to receive a left side spin...from the receivers perspective, the dot would start on the right side of the ball and would traverse across going LEFT.

right side spin...is the opposite. this is the spin that is typically produced from a right handed player doing a tomahawk or hook serve (or reverse pendulum). the dot on the ball would appear from the left and traverse across RIGHT.

Again, from my basic understanding, there are many ways to produce different types of spin, but in the simple terms, its a combination of where you contact the ball, and which direction your paddle is moving when you make that contact (other factors could include incoming spin, but i think this is also simplified by where you contact the ball).

For example, example, if my opponent hits top spin at me, if i want to hit top spin back, my paddle should hit the top of the ball and more foward. Likewise, if i want to hit topspin against a ball that is coming at me with with backspin, i must hit the back of the ball and my paddle should be moving in an upwards direction as i make that contact.

Again, there are many other factors, such as how much spin/speed the incoming ball has, but how much spin and speed i am wishing to impart on my outgoing ball, all of which are important decisions to make on where exactly to hit the ball and in which trajectory my paddle should be moving when i hit the ball, but i believe these are the foundational concepts, agreed?

so how does one produce a push that has top spin? or a flick that has underspin? I know with my pendulum serve, i can hit underneath the ball and brush up to produce a top spin effect. is it the same for the push to produce a top spin? I know Craig Bryant has an extremely deceptive kicker serve that is hard to read the spin...in his tutorial video he says at the very last moment, he either does a flick up or flick down to impart his chosen spin on the ball. if you can do it with a kicker serve, you can do it with a push, but the basic mechanics are the same right? its the deception that is practiced?

I can imagine many ways in which you can push the wall in such a way that it produces topspin. im having a hard time understand how you can do a BH flick with underspin though lol. Please explain! If you say its possible, i trust you. but i need to understand please!

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I agree with you on this as well. The important thing is that this shot produces the desired effect of a pop up. The second thing though I have a question, and perhaps you cna help us. Is it more of a brushing upward stroke or more of a lifting stroke? The guy demonstrating it seems to be using different techniques, so it's hard for me to tell. Or perhaps this isn't one single technique but a few different strokes, so long as they're not producing heavy backspin.

lifting, or brushing upward, is basically the same thing.
yes, there are many ways one can do it,
by focusing on the axis of the ball and then changing the spin from underspin with a lift/brush, it will then change to top spin on the return.

whether heavy or light spin is based on hand control, and what you said previously, enough of that spin to trick the opponent.

so, the lifting or brushing, is to "correct contact point" on the incoming ball.
So same of the above is applicable to BH flick and making it an underspin ball.

For people who loves spinning the ball, playing around with different spin is good for control.

For me, I can use RPB side to chop the ball back (underspin), or after chop to glide the thumb side to go towards the side of the ball/axis and then lift/brush.
I find that easier to trick opponents than using my FH side, where it is more visible.

 

[zeio]

A professional demonstration at WTT FEE Varazdin 2024.

https://youtu.be/luKZ_kgbS24?t=9